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Dual comms

cvzyl

I'm New Here
Hi

I am considering installing a second COM radio in my aircraft. Will I also need a second dedicated antennae for this radio or can both COM radios share the existing antennae?

I know this is probably a stupid question but I'm not very knowledgeable about avionics.

Regards
Cobus
 
Cobus,

Welcome to VAF!

It is not a stupid question.

The long answer is, it is theoretically possible for two comm radios to share an antenna in certain configurations, but in reality there are many reasons why it is not practical. I can explain some of those reasons in greater detail if you're interested, but it would be purely an academic discussion.

The short practical answer is, yes, each comm radio needs to have its own antenna.

-Roee
 
Not sure if you intend IFR, but if not I would encourage you to consider just a radio that has dual monitoring. This allows you to actively listen and transmit on one frequency while also hearing what's on another frequency. Having just one radio is less expense and easier to wire. I'm VFR only and with my Icom A210 can't think of a reason why I would need a second radio, though I do have a handheld that I keep in the aircraft which can serve as a backup in a pinch. Good luck.
 
Welcome to VAF!

Cobus, welcome to VAF :D

Good info above, just go with the dual antennas.

You might also need an audio panel, makes it easier to switch between radios, and many if not all of them allow you to monitor the second radio also.
 
Let's not complicate things too much. If you want an intercom then consider an audio panel. If you already have, or do not want, an intercom, then one or two switches are all you need to swap between radios.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I already have a radio, Garmin SL40, which is a great radio. Problem is I hate the Flightcom intercom. It opens all the mics when squelch is broken on one mic, which causes unnecessary noise ( 4 seater). It is also a pain to set the squelch as I don't necessarily use the same brand and model headsets. I want a PS Engineering audio panel for the AudioVox (automatically sets squelch for each individual mic and only opens the mic on which speech is detected). I have used PS Engineering intercoms in the past and love them.
During my search for the right model I noticed the PAR100EX which is a COM radio and intercom combined. I don't fly IFR and I know having a second radio is probably not necessary but I thought while I'm going through the exercise I might just as well get the radio with the audio panel.

Any thoughts?
 
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From your description of the problem that prompted all this, it sounds to me like all you really need is a better 4-place intercom. The rest is scope creep.

With a single radio, you don't even really need a full-blown audio panel. And being VFR only, and already having an SL-40 with standby frequency monitoring capability, it doesn't sound like you really have a need for a second radio either. It just came into the picture as "if I get A, then I may as well get B, and if I get B, then I may as well get C, and if I get C then I need D...". (A=better intercom, B=audio panel, C=second radio, D=second antenna)

So, to keep it simple and just solve the problem at hand, my general advice to you would be to look for a better 4-place intercom. I'm not familiar with specific makers or models to point you to, but unless you've exhausted that search already, that's the direction I would go.

And one specific avenue, since you've had good experience with PS Engineering products, find out what they have to offer on the intercom-only end of the spectrum. Mark Scheuer, CEO of PS Engineering, has been known to frequent this forum (username: mscheuer). Shoot him a message.
 
PAR100 is relatively new, so no data on long term use. However, PS has always made good products. Like the last post, I'd suggest:
1. Just get a ps intercom
2. If you want a second in the plane radio, the PAR100.
3. If you want an emergency (no electricity) radio, consider a PS intercom plus a battery powered handheld. (Transmit range will be limited but good enough for vfr use).

Btw, I agree, an intercom that opens all mikes when one person talks is going to have a lot of noise.
 
One gotchas to keep in mind if you install a second radio, is minimum separation between the two antennas. Typically you'll want about 30-36", but use what is specified in the radio installation manual. You'll also want to understand how each radio handles transmit lock.
 
Thank you all for your replies. Roee, you are quite right, there is considerable scope creep. Maybe I'm looking for reasons to buy something I like but don't really need.

I'll contact Mark from PSE. I know they make quite a few intercoms but I'm not sure if any of them have built in IntelliVox.

Thanks again for all the input.

Cobus
 
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IntelliVox intercom

Thank you all for your replies. Roee, you are quite right, there is considerable scope creep. Maybe I'm looking for reasons to buy something I like but don't really need.

I'll contact Mark from PSE. I know they make quite a few intercoms but I'm not sure if any of them have built in IntelliVox.

Thanks again for all the input.

Cobus

Dear Cobus, thanks for sending me a private message and I have decided to respond in your thread.

We do not have an intercom only with IntelliVox. Why? Cost of certification for intercom only, would be hard to get an ROI. Sad....I know, but it is the reality of the business we are in.

Why not a non-approved intercom with IntelliVox? Because right now, our engineering resources are all spoken for and I'm concerned that the increase in cost to spread our NRE into the intercom will make it a bit too pricey.

I know you would love our PAR100EX but as already pointed out, this may be a feature creep for you. But I will say it is nice to have a back up radio, even if you do only fly VFR.

Without making any comment about Flightcom, I will tell you that there are a lot of pilots who love our PM3000A (11931A) it is stereo, so you may not need that, so the other choice wouldbe the PM1000II. I would recommend if you go to the PM1000II (11920), this will give you the Crew function as well as individually gated mics.

The standard PM1000II has two VOX circuits, one for the pilot and one for the copilot/passengers. 11922

Call us if you like, we love talking audio for airplanes. We are on our way to Sun 'N Fun

Mark Scheuer
PS Engineering
 
Just as an add on to Mark's post, I've been flying with two coms for quite a number of years with the PM1000II and love it.
The great thing I like about it is the individual squelch controls. This takes care of the unmatched headsets problem.
 
Since he has 4 headsets to deal with, it might be necessary to adjust one or two mike gains on the passenger side (easy to do) to get uniform squelch break. I will add that while the intelliVox works great, a well designed (there are some intercoms out there that are not!) manually adjusted squelch tends to be a "set and forget" operation, e.g. just as good for practical purposes, as long as only the active mike is turned on. I cannot remember the last time I touched the squelch controls in my -10. Manual squelch also has the plus that if you want to yell at the passengers you can turn their squelch to "off", so they can't yell back!
 
, I will tell you that there are a lot of pilots who love our PM3000A (11931A) it is stereo, so you may not need that, so the other choice would be the PM1000II. I would recommend if you go to the PM1000II (11920), this will give you the Crew function as well as individually gated mics.

The standard PM1000II has two VOX circuits, one for the pilot and one for the copilot/passengers. 11922

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=98392
 
I have a Par100ex that has survived the smoke test and I'm sure I'll enjoy flying behind it. One note on PSE that I feel I should pass on, if for no other reason than it surprised me after buying mine, is that the first piece of paper you see when you open the box is a large print disclaimer that your warranty is void if you install it yourself.

I find that position to be a bit laughable (and possibly in conflict with Magnuson-Moss) considering the amount of advertising to the experimental masses that they do. It's a radio that can only be put in an experimental for gods sake..how many of you had yours installed by a shop? Without question, if I wire it up wrong and it blows up...my fault, no warranty...I expect that. But to void the warranty outright simply because I installed it? I can't say I'm behind that notion. Enough so, that if I had known ahead of time that PSE has that kind of aversion to homebuilders, I never would have installed one. As it was, I did consider scrapping the already cut panel and going another route...but I was too far in at that point and a delay of that nature was not in my plan.

Just an FYI for my airplane building community and while I take full blame for not seeing this disclaimer prior to buying...I thought I would throw it out there so others don't miss it too.
 
I believe the above post is incorrect. The correct statement is that PS will not honor the warantee unless the builder uses a wiring harness bought from PS or one of its approved dealers. In this way they are no different than others, such as Garmin. PS has in the past stated that this was a simple business decision; they had too many units returned for warantee work which, after much time and effort ($$$), turned out to have been damaged by incorrect wiring.
 
I believe the above post is incorrect. The correct statement is that PS will not honor the warantee unless the builder uses a wiring harness bought from PS or one of its approved dealers. In this way they are no different than others, such as Garmin. PS has in the past stated that this was a simple business decision; they had too many units returned for warantee work which, after much time and effort ($$$), turned out to have been damaged by incorrect wiring.

Their wording on the first page of the manual says otherwise:

"The product warranty is not valid unless this product is installed by an authorized PS Engineering dealer"

Not much room for interpretation. As for that being no different from Garmin....does Garmin make a radio that isn't certified? Too much time and effort? A radio sent in for repair must first be diagnosed...if install caused the problem it's a billable repair, if its a failed screen it's not. There is no more time and effort required to diagnose either way unless you assume we will all just scrap them when something isn't working right. PSE is assuming every builder is going to wire it up wrong and cause their own problems. I find that as silly from them as I do from Garmin. This isn't 20 years ago. There are a LOT of how to's on the internet now, videos showing how to crimp and how to solder jacks. It's not hard to wire a radio.
 
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Bob is correct here and Bill isn't entirely without a Warranty, because luckily he purchased it through a dealer that will support it for him. What it means is that by choosing to build his own harness, he's accepted the clearly noted terms of the factory warranty (in complete compliance with the law) and chosen to wire it himself. The difference is that if one does have a PS or authorized dealer harness you get absolute direct factory support on "same day exchanges", etc.. because they know the harness was built to their standard. Without it, you are stuck working through your dealer for warranty work and some dealers do better than others.

As Mark has noted in the past, this wasn't a flippant decision but was based on the absolute FACT that 99.9% of warranty issues with avionics are truly user induced when wired up by the end user. It causes a monstrous drain on resources trying to cover said errors. Therefore PSE kindly offers a number of options for their customers; any of which each person is free to choose fully knowing the consequences of their choices....in full compliance with the law.

That said, after 10+ years of hands on experience with PSE products, I've yet to hear of this truly being an issue at all (in theory maybe, but in practice not so much). Kind of like buying a new car and doing a self-tune / reflash of an ECM not using an authorized tune...many mfgr's will Void the entire car's warranty if something gets messed up because of it.

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein
 
Attention Mark:
Bill does have a point here in that he is correctly quoting the statement on the first page of the installation guide - even though everywhere else on your web site the words "or PS approved harness used" appear. I assume this is a typo which you will wish to fix?
 
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Warranty

Attention Mark:
Bill does have a point here in that he is correctly quoting the statement on the first page of the installation guide - even though everywhere else on your web site the words "or PS approved harness used" appear. I assume this is a typo which you will wish to fix?

Thanks Bob.

Under Support on our home page, we have this link

http://ps-engineering.com/docs/WarrantyStatement.pdf

Also, before one can download an installation manual, the individual will see this in bold red letters:

Notice: In order for the factory warranty to be valid, the product must be installed by an authorized PS Engineering dealer or a custom wire harness must be purchased by PS Engineering.

And of course, if an authorized PS Engineering Dealer buildes the harness or an Approach Systems Hub is purchased, the warranty is covered.

Especially important is the PAR100EX, a replacement will run upwards of $800

23 years ago when we started to sell panel mounted intercoms, we didn't have such a warranty clause and it almost shut us down. We were replacing intercoms left and right because of "burn ups".

Roughly 20 years ago we put this policy in place and we are no longer blamed for making junk! Intercoms and audio panels are only as good as the install.

We aren't perfect but we sure do try hard to make an affordable and high quality product. Having some control on the construction of the harness has really resulted in a pretty good reputation on just that.

Sincerely,
Mark Scheuer
PS Engineering
 
TWO RADIOS FOR ME

I almost tangled with a Mooney @ 8,500'. We were both at the proper altitude, me heading due west and him heading SW.

My Narco was out and I didn't have flight following because of it. I try to swivel my head like a hoot owl and that is what saved me from certain collision. I dove like crazy and watched him go overhead. The image of his oil smeared belly is emblazened in my mind forever. I'm convinced he never saw me. He had no idea how close he/she was to disaster.

I got to KFST and called Vans to order a SL30 and a SL40 that afternoon. I got a PS 4000 for my audio switching. Both have monitoring; but when the radio is out, well, the radio is OUT.

I will NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER be without at least TWO (2) radios in an airplane I own again. If the radios go out I'm getting on the ground. Flight Following might not save you and I do NOT depend on them entirely; but that experience scared the living snot out of me :eek: and if I collide, it won't be because I didn't have another working radio.

My 2 centavos.

Cheers,
 
My RV had two comms & a PM Engineering 8000B audio panel with auto-squelch. A perfect combo as far as I was concerned. With mountains & Class B airspace close to my home airport, as well as frequently using an air to air frequency when flying with friends, I could immediately monitor and switch to the ATC or local airports very simply. Besides, the 8000B weighs practically nothing.
 
I recently went through the same decision process as the OP. I currently have just one comm, but plan to install a second when more funds are available. My wife wants good stero music and would like to be able to listen to separate music from me.

I called and spoke to all the well-known intercom makers: PSE, Flightcomm, Softcomm, and Sigtronics.

PSE had by far the best feature set, but that was also reflected in the premium price tag. The tech over at Sig was very helpful and recommended a number of solutions to get what I wanted out of the intercom.

I decided that the PSE PM3000 met my needs. At that point the scope-creep kicked in. The price tag for the PMA5000EX audio panel isn't all that much more than just the intercom. The audio panel has extra features like separate crew/passenger music inputs. I can just add a switch for my wife to be crew or pass and she has her own music while still having the intercom. I ended up with the PMA5000EX and am happy with the choice.

Yeah, I don't like PSE warranty, but I understand their reasons. It would be nice if the unit came with a copy of the install manual. They include he operation manual, but not the install....doesn't make sense to me.
 
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