RE:Low CHT's High Oil Temps

RE:Low oil pressure!!!! High Oil Temps

So here is the story.

My ECi IOX 360 (120 Hours since July (, 2009) with dual Pmags, cold ram air induction, 9 to 1, ....... has on the last two short hops seen a dramatic increase in oil temps ( 245 ) with lower than usual CHT's (sub 370 range). During the last two hot summers the oil temp (Desert SW ....KSGU) the oil would peg at about 209 with the # 3 @ or above 400 and the rest sub 400
The oil pressure starts out at 80 plus at start but drops to 50 during the first 15 minutes of flight.

Running with Aeroshell 20/50 SW and about 5.5 quarts on these flights.

An old A/P / Airport managers said change to 50 weight during the hot months and this would correct the problem.....but ECi says 20/50.

Also I was running at about 75% power, 2350 RPM, ? (can't remeber MP..sorry). 3350 to 6000 to 2950 MSL.With T/O @ SGU than back to 1L8 where upon landing I saw my first ever 245 oil temp!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oil change is coming up so maybe the 50 weight/close checks of all systems/rearrange oil cooler( it is in the standard Van's location)....

What to do??????????????????

Frank @ 1L8 Flying and losing the joy with the cost of gas/insurance and these darn high oil temps.

If you were just seeing a high oil temp with no indication of low oil pressure, I would suspect a gauge/sender issue. But you have both symptoms, so you need to figure out why your engine/oil/cooler are not rejecting the same amount of heat as before.

I would check to make sure you don't have an obstruction in the oil cooler system or some sort of airflow disruption blocking the cooler's air inlet or outlet.

The vernatherm is always a possibility, but IMO, it is low on the probable cause list.

The temperature differences between and 20w/50 and straight 50 weight oil are negligable, so I wouldn't chase that issue.

fstringham7a said:

So here is the story.

the last two short hops seen a dramatic increase in oil temps...

The oil pressure starts out at 80 plus at start but drops to 50 during the first 15 minutes of flight.

Click to expand...

You should be very concerned when significant changes in engine parameters are observed. Oil pressure will normally drop some as the oil heats up but if it goes from 80 psi at 180F to 50 psi at 235F after 15 minutes that's not normal.

I would first pull the cowls and do a good inspection including oil filter and oil screen.

fstringham7a said:

So here is the story........ on the last two short hops seen a dramatic increase in oil temps ( 245 ) with lower than usual CHT's (sub 370 range).

Click to expand...

Symptoms suggest cooler airflow blockage. Lower CHT would be due to increased upper plenum pressure.

Frank,

Some of the same problems here.
First put the oil to 7 quarts. Then find out where it stops putting
oil over and mark that spot. Mine is 7.
look for the thread on louvers that is running
on this site.

I opened up my lower cowl and that helped the issue.

Check your vernatherm/thermostatic bypass valve!
Good Luck,
Mahlon
?The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."

Kyle Boatright said:

I would check to make sure you don't have an obstruction in the oil cooler system or some sort of airflow disruption blocking the cooler's air inlet or outlet.

Click to expand...

Like perhaps a birds nest in there on top of the cylinders if your oil cooler is mounted on the rear cylinder baffles... especially if these symptoms suddenly began after the airplane had been sitting unflown for a while.
See this thread: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=73390

RE: Update on oil pressure part of the problem

Yesterday I took a short flight to get the oil warm in prep for an oil change and a look see under the cowl.

All looked clean.

During this past week I have done a bunch of study here and the net to find that elusive answer to my problem. The folks at ECi and America's Engine gave some great advice and info.

The first thing to check was the spring size in the oil pressure relief valve(top right of #3 cylinder). While the oil was draining took the valve out and inspected. All was clean as a whistle. Called America's to report and to determine the the spring size. They decided it was undersized for my engine. So now off for a repalcement.

WOW..............big buck $$$$$$$$$$ white spring (LW11713).

I have really enjoyed reading the various threads on this and similar topics.
Great info.

One question. How are you folks doing with the pilot controled oil temp. regulator in place of the vernatherm. Thread creep!!!!

So for now we wait for the spring. All the folks in the know think that an increase in the oil pressure will bring the oil temps down to an appropriate level. Something about inverse proportionality I feel like I am teaching Chemistry again!!!!!!!!!!!

Frank @ 1L8 ....RV7A....

Why did the spring you had deliver satisfactory results and oil pressure up until the last two flights????
The "normal" spring for a IO/O-360 is a 61084 and it will normally leave about 5-7 turns of the oil pressure relieve valve to go when set for 75PSI in cruise flight. That assumes normal clearances in the engine and oil temps in the 160 to 210 range.
The LW-11713 spring is a higher tension spring, that will normally make you have to screw the oil pressure relief valve adjustment all the way out for cruise oil pressures in the area of 75 psi. It will normally also make your cold take off oil pressure a bit high.
If the pressure is satisfactory when the oil temp is around 180F and only 50psi at 245 F then putting a bigger spring in will do nothing except make your cold oil pressure higher. The reason the oil pressure is dropping from normal to 50psi is because the oil is at 245F and has thinned dramatically. If the pressure is normal at 180F then the issue isn't low oil pressure, it is too much heat or lack of the ability to get rid of the heat.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
?The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."

RE: Poor explanation!!!!!

Hi Mahlon

Thanks for the reply.

My explanation below leaves out the fact that the oil pressure has been low while in cruise from the very beginning of it's life. The 80 is representitive of the pressure at start up with a steady drop as the engine warms up on the ground. The average pressure is 55 in cruise. On some fligths low 60's but on most mid to high 50's. My oil temps will usually hit 209 and be steady. Another data point missed is I have over time slowly turned the oil pressure relief valve to the point is all the way in!!!
I may have been crying wolf the other day. That flight was made low and slow doing touch and goes......good mix for high oil temps. It was the 50oil pressure that got my attention

I did read somewhere on the net (I wished I could site the reference .... it was probably made by a newdie that has a newly minted ticket, never built a plane and watched his Dad change the oil in the family DeSoto)) that SOME high compression ( mine is 9 to 1) engine will need the stronger spring and it did discuss the need to change from the 61084 to the LW11713. This info backed up the thinking of the folk at ECi and America's.

Your observations do make perfect sense to me. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

The other suggestions by all the parties in the know went from.....begin with the oil pressure relief spring to vernatherm (your first thougths) to some blockage in the oil system to oil pump problemto main bearing problem oh I just about forgot a good seal in the baffeling.
On this last on I have got a bunch of sealent / aluminium hood to capture the air.

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A...

fstringham7a said:

So here is the story.

My ECi IOX 360 (120 Hours since July (, 2009) with dual Pmags, cold ram air induction, 9 to 1, ....... has on the last two short hops seen a dramatic increase in oil temps ( 245 ) with lower than usual CHT's (sub 370 range). During the last two hot summers the oil temp (Desert SW ....KSGU) the oil would peg at about 209 with the # 3 @ or above 400 and the rest sub 400
The oil pressure starts out at 80 plus at start but drops to 50 during the first 15 minutes of flight.

Running with Aeroshell 20/50 SW and about 5.5 quarts on these flights.

An old A/P / Airport managers said change to 50 weight during the hot months and this would correct the problem.....but ECi says 20/50.

Also I was running at about 75% power, 2350 RPM, ? (can't remeber MP..sorry). 3350 to 6000 to 2950 MSL.With T/O @ SGU than back to 1L8 where upon landing I saw my first ever 245 oil temp!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oil change is coming up so maybe the 50 weight/close checks of all systems/rearrange oil cooler( it is in the standard Van's location)....

What to do??????????????????

Frank @ 1L8 Flying and losing the joy with the cost of gas/insurance and these darn high oil temps.

Click to expand...

RE:Another Thought????

I also read this thread about the problems of getting a proper seat for the vernatherm in a 90 degree oil filter adapter. I have this set up.

I guess this is why I wanted to start with the oil pressure side of the equation and not the high temperature side.

I just hope that the problem is the simple (less $) fix than the more expensive deep on the inside of the engine problems (more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$).

Frank @1L8 ...RV7A...

Yes we will see. I hope the spring fixes it but deep down I think there are other issues if the OP was only 55 with the 61084 spring installed with the adjustment all the way in. I know that setup will put the ball on the seat at 55psi pressure. I think all the stronger spring is going to do is hold the ball against the seat harder then the 61084 screwed all the way in did.
Once the ball is on the seat and seated putting in a higher pressure spring only holds the ball on the seat harder and doesn't do anything for more pressure because the pressure is what it is and being controlled by other clearances/holes in the engine lubrication system, rather then by the ball which is firmly seated.
Anyway I hope the spring fixes it!
Good luck,
Mahlon
?The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."

Hey Frank, any updates on this? I installed the 10-row oil cooler and was hopeful that my high oil temp issues were resolved...unfortunately, they're not as good as I want them to be. It really seems like ECI engines are prone to high oil temps.

My next steps (probably should've been my first steps), are to verify my oil temp sender's accuracy, check the oil lines for pinches, and finally pull the Vernatherm to see if it's seating all the way.

I bought 2 louvers for the bottom of the cowl, but I want to exhaust all options before cutting holes in things! My plenum is air-tight, so I know it's not that.

RE: Update

I installed the stronger spring ( LW11713) in the oil pressure adjustment assembly. Put everything back togerther after a careful inspection of the rest of the FWF area and took the plane for a spin around the patch.

Oil pressure up ( 69 )....better.... oil temperature up higher (high 240's) ...not good. So another confab with the good folks at America's. After the deliberation it was suggested the original spring indeed needed to be changed but ........

So on to the vernatherm, then clogged oil cooler lines, or a wack on the cowl exit to increase airflow....... or maybe even the Vetterman self adjusting oil temp idea.

Don't ya just love Experimental aviation.

Oh, by the way what size is the top of the ECi Vernatherm. I want to be prepared with the right tools.

Frank @ 1L8 ... RV7A ... Flying, will kinda!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We run the same high compression ECI Titan IOX-360 engine with cold air induction in the RV-8, and had finished the plane's very first annual condition inspection just a couple weeks before Oshkosh. Got a very small section of the baffling material folded wrong when the top cowl was reinstalled and oil temps shot up dramatically (~230's when they normally run 200-215 even in 100+ Texas heat). Not maintaining a strong pressure differential and seal between upper and lower cowl is crucial to oil cooling with this beast, with the oil cooler hanging off the rear cyl #4 baffle. Of course when the oil heated up, the pressure came down too, as you'd expect. We typically run 74-75 psi in cruise with normal oil temps. After correcting the baffle leaks, oil temps instantly returned to normal again... no higher than 215 in a climb to 6500' and then settled down to 200 in cruise at 6500', 75% power settings with the OAT at the surface in the upper 90's degrees, I don't remember what the OAT was at altitude, maybe upper 70's?.

We broke in the engine on Aeroshell straight weight 100W mineral oil despite ECI's paperwork suggesting Phillips XC 20/50. We're normally running the Phillips 20/50 oil now, but last summer did run Aeroshell 100W "Plus" for a while after break-in and there is a noticeable difference in oil temps... the 20/50 multi viscosity does seem to run 5-10 degrees hotter than the straight weight in the summertime, no real difference in the cooler seasons of the year.

We're also running an expensive SW10599R 9-row oil cooler, the original 7-row NDM cooler was totally overwhelmed by this engine, and gave us oil temps of 240+ rather quickly way back in Phase 1, so that oil cooler had to go.

On this year's Oshkosh trip, I ran oil temps of 195-200 at 7500' until I got further north into cooler weather, and then it came down even more.

RE:Similar But

Neal@F14 said:

We run the same high compression ECI Titan IOX-360 engine with cold air induction in the RV-8, and had finished the plane's very first annual condition inspection just a couple weeks before Oshkosh. Got a very small section of the baffling material folded wrong when the top cowl was reinstalled and oil temps shot up dramatically (~230's when they normally run 200-215 even in 100+ Texas heat). Not maintaining a strong pressure differential and seal between upper and lower cowl is crucial to oil cooling with this beast, with the oil cooler hanging off the rear cyl #4 baffle. Of course when the oil heated up, the pressure came down too, as you'd expect. We typically run 74-75 psi in cruise with normal oil temps. After correcting the baffle leaks, oil temps instantly returned to normal again... no higher than 215 in a climb to 6500' and then settled down to 200 in cruise at 6500', 75% power settings with the OAT at the surface in the upper 90's degrees, I don't remember what the OAT was at altitude, maybe upper 70's?.

We broke in the engine on Aeroshell straight weight 100W mineral oil despite ECI's paperwork suggesting Phillips XC 20/50. We're normally running the Phillips 20/50 oil now, but last summer did run Aeroshell 100W "Plus" for a while after break-in and there is a noticeable difference in oil temps... the 20/50 multi viscosity does seem to run 5-10 degrees hotter than the straight weight in the summertime, no real difference in the cooler seasons of the year.

We're also running an expensive SW10599R 9-row oil cooler, the original 7-row NDM cooler was totally overwhelmed by this engine, and gave us oil temps of 240+ rather quickly way back in Phase 1, so that oil cooler had to go.

On this year's Oshkosh trip, I ran oil temps of 195-200 at 7500' until I got further north into cooler weather, and then it came down even more.

Click to expand...

My set up is similar with a couple of exceptions. I have an enclosed plenum top to cover the cylinders...similar to Robbie Attway's. It appears to be in excellent shape as to keeping all the air in and around the cylinders. Secondly, my tempreature up until June have been like yours but ....on a flight first of June gthis year the temps were in the 230's plus. Hot day here in the desert SW, low and slow, T/G practice which was a good 15 to 20 degrees higher as compared to last year under similar circumstances last summer. Third my oil pressure has run in the mid 50's to mid 60's from the beginning. Even with the oil pressure screw slowly turned to it's full in postion.

My usual cruise temp is between 190 and 209 (depending on OAT). Low and slow and climb has always been no more than 215 even on the hottest day.

So my hope is it is something simple and enpensive to fix.....

By the way thanks for your reply. It does let me know that my engine is at similar (at least before June 2011) to one of it's cousins.

Frank @ 1L8 ... RV7A ...

RE: Vernatherm check A OK

So yesterday got up at O dark 30 and got to the airport to check the Vernatherm to see if it is or is part of the problem. Kind of hoped it was but the wallet was hoping it wasn't.

Once extracted it was noted that a perfectly centered and circular seat was detected. The heat test proved that it was still doing it's thing of extension. So it would appear the vernatherm is not the problem!!! $$$$$$$$saved at least.

A good friend stopped by (knowing I was in over my head) and did a look see at the engine .... FWF .... area. He brought his compression test equipment. All cylinders were 80/78.

So what next????? I am going to retime the two P-Mags (they have performed flawlessly from the beginning.... July 2009) and go fly it to see if the timing was off and causing the problem.

Stay tuned !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Frank @ 1L8 .... RV7A ....

RE:Timing Plus

So today I checked the timing on the p-mags and they checked out just fine. I did call Brad and at E-Mag and he patiently listened to my story and then made a suggestion to fly the plane to cruise and stabilize the engine parameters and then see what happens with them on just the left mag and then just the right mag............a few numbers for you review and get your imput as to any problems you may note:

Sorry about my attempt at a VAF spread sheet. I will update later to make it look pretty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1.Intial cruise numbers
2. Stable Cruise
3. Left Mag alone
4. Right Mag alone
5. Lean of Peak 7.7 GPH
6. Back to Both Mags
7. Throttled back to descend for landing

7500 AGL

1 2 3 4 5 6 7.

Percent Power 72 74 ?? ?? ?? ?? ??
OAT 74 74 74 74 74 74 74
Oil Temp 238 243 246 246 240 246 243
Oil Pressure 67 67 62 62 62 62 75
CHT1 363 385 386 375 366 371 358
CHT2 375 398 396 384 376 389 371
CHT3 384 403 385 394 379 401 370
CHT4 379 390 379 389 367 389 364
EGT's 1200's 1200's............................................ 1100/1200

So there you have it. Do you see anything that cause you pause???????

So I will now change the oil back to the original 20/50 xc from the 50 weight , another new oil filter, and only add 6 quarts of oil not the 8 quarts (50 weight)that I did last time. I really don't think the oil amount or type is my answer but stranger things have happened to me .....

Original problem was to increase the pressure from the mid 50's to the 70/70's range. This has been helped with the new heavy spring. But what I got for my trouble was high Oil Temps. Pressure is up but so is the oil temp. Oh for the 209 degree oil temp days of last summer

Frank @ 1L8 .... Flying ....

Temp Sensor

Have you pulled the oil temp sensor and put it in boiling water with a good thermometer and verified the panel readout matches the thermometer.
i did not see any reference to this in any of the posts.
good Luck

Yup... What Mahlon said, the LW-11713 is not the answer IMHO, there is another issue.

It sounds to me like an oil flow blockge through the cooler.

Did you check the oil pickup screen? That is if the eci engines have these fitted.

I suggest pulling the oil cooler and hoses and check for blockages. Perhaps have the cooler flushed - if this is possible.

With the hoses it is very easy to create a flap of rubber when assembling the ends - ask me how I know. Sometimes this flap lays flat and needs a copious blast of air to flip it up before it can be seen.

Remember the oil flow is of the order of 10 gallons per minute - the flow path must be free from obstructions.

Doug

RE: Next Thing to check

Oil Screen checked out A OK....

Have not checked the oil temp sender. To Easy?????I will be doing it though. I do know the temp at start up is the ambient and it will slowly but surely rise as the engine warms up. Nothing erratic or out of line so I think it is OK but ya never know!!!!

Hate the toughts of it but the oil cooler/hoses are on the short list to dig into.
It will also give me a chance to stand the oil cooler off of the back #4 side baffle, maybe add an exsit ramp, or ..........

I may also be cutting the exit ramp that surrounds the four pipe vetterman exhaust to get a bit more air flow.

Thanks for the ideas.

Frank @ 1L8 ... RV7A ... Flying

Do you by any chance have piston skirt oilers on this engine?

Pat

Hey Frank,
Glad I'm not the only one still chasing down oil temp issues! I got the idea from another thread, but I went to Target and bought a Sunbeam water boiler for $12 a couple weeks ago. Made checking the oil temp probe easy!

I don't know if you read my other post, but I put an oil filter cooler (the heat sink fins) on my oil filter. I may go one step further and point a couple blast tubes at it, too. Can't hurt, I guess!

RE: Piston oil squirts....

Pat Stewart said:

Do you by any chance have piston skirt oilers on this engine?

Pat

Click to expand...

No....

The thing that bugs me most is my last flight in May 2011 I got the usual 185 to 209 oil temp. Then out of the blue the first flight in June I got lower than normal oil pressure ( 50 ) and a bit higher than normal oil temp
(220) ....... Added the new oil pressure spring and the oil pressure was up to 69 in cruise and no lower than 62 but the oil temp slowly climbs to to 240 to 245......

??????????????

So it goes in experimental aviation!!!!

Frank @ 1L8 ... RV7A ... Flying

Ok no on the skirt oilers. When you changed the spring did you pull out the ball and check the seat for grooves and or trash.

Pat

Pat Stewart said:

Ok no on the skirt oilers. When you changed the spring did you pull out the ball and check the seat for grooves and or trash.

Pat

Click to expand...

The ball and seat were as smooth as a babies bottom. The bore as far as my eye could see was clean with no trash...

Frank @ 1L8 ... RV7A ... Flying ....Kinda

RE: Cahnges

lostpilot28 said:

Hey Frank,
Glad I'm not the only one still chasing down oil temp issues! I got the idea from another thread, but I went to Target and bought a Sunbeam water boiler for $12 a couple weeks ago. Made checking the oil temp probe easy!

I don't know if you read my other post, but I put an oil filter cooler (the heat sink fins) on my oil filter. I may go one step further and point a couple blast tubes at it, too. Can't hurt, I guess!

Click to expand...

Hi Sonny

Yes I have been following your process. It has been helpful for sure.

The question I have is why the sudden change in my case!!!! Boy I hope it isn't major as in oil pump/main bearing as that would be a major bummer.

Good luck and Happy and safe Flying.

Frank @ 1L8 ... RV7A ....

Before spending $$$ and time on chasing a number, I would be sure the number was accurate.

How do you know the oil temp was really higher? If the CHT's and the oil temp were both higher, I would believe what I'm seeing. Consider oil temp as a backup instrument to verify what the CHT's are giving you.

Have you checked the temperature of the CHT's and the oil temp when the engine is stone cold....do they agree with one another since everything is the same temp.

Seems like I heard that some oil filters have springs inside and release after oil warms. Did you recently change your oil/filter and the type you put on is not releasing until a higher temp. If so, your pain is self inflicted.

A new oil temp sensor for a Dynon is $20 and shipping from ACS. I know because I just bought a replacement since my temps started swinging every 2 seconds about 10 degrees and we both know that engine oil won't cool 10 degrees in 2 seconds.

Ironically, an oil filer and the sensor are both around 20 bucks.

My recommendation is to put a new sensor in and go flying. A mechanic to get inside the engine is $70/hr. A sensor change out would be the most economical diagnostic test you could do. If the temp is still higher, then you have bigger issues.

Just remember, opinions are like rear ends. Everybody has one and most of them stink.......Good luck.

agree with the sensor check - cheap and easy.

I'd remove the the oil cooler and check for blockage - both air through the cooling fins and oil through the oil passages by draining the oil and blowing some air through one of the fittings - don't look at the opposite fitting too close while doing this...ask me how I know.

Are the cooling predominantly straight and unbent?

Webb said:

Before spending $$$ and time on chasing a number, I would be sure the number was accurate.

I agree and so does my wallet

How do you know the oil temp was really higher? If the CHT's and the oil temp were both higher, I would believe what I'm seeing. Consider oil temp as a backup instrument to verify what the CHT's are giving you.

Have you checked the temperature of the CHT's and the oil temp when the engine is stone cold....do they agree with one another since everything is the same temp.

They both agree

Seems like I heard that some oil filters have springs inside and release after oil warms. Did you recently change your oil/filter and the type you put on is not releasing until a higher temp. If so, your pain is self inflicted.

I use Champion .......

A new oil temp sensor for a Dynon is $20 and shipping from ACS. I know because I just bought a replacement since my temps started swinging every 2 seconds about 10 degrees and we both know that engine oil won't cool 10 degrees in 2 seconds

Ironically, an oil filer and the sensor are both around 20 bucks.

My recommendation is to put a new sensor in and go flying. A mechanic to get inside the engine is $70/hr. A sensor change out would be the most economical diagnostic test you could do. If the temp is still higher, then you have bigger issues.

I will give this a try.......

Just remember, opinions are like rear ends. Everybody has one and most of them stink.......Good luck.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the help and suggestions

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A ....

RE: More Info

RV8R999 said:

agree with the sensor check - cheap and easy.

I'd remove the the oil cooler and check for blockage - both air through the cooling fins and oil through the oil passages by draining the oil and blowing some air through one of the fittings - don't look at the opposite fitting too close while doing this...ask me how I know.

Are the cooling predominantly straight and unbent?

Click to expand...

Hi Ken

I would be interested to know what was your pre and post experience of blowing air through the oil system.

Oil cooler is clean on the exterior with only 120 hrs on it......

FRank @ 1L8 ... RV7A...

Frank -

My SW Oil Cooler sat in my garage while I was building for 2 years having been removed from my other plane so it had oil in it. The fins were clean and unbent. There was a little sludge when I blew out the oil passages but cannot give you a before and after report on Oil Temps because I cleaned this oil cooler thoroughly prior to install in my -8.

Your CHTs are just fine, and if your vernatherm is working as you describe then I can only think of two things: sensor, or the Oil Cooler - assuming the cooler is the correct size for this engine? I'm also including the baffling and ducting in the Oil Cooler system. They are in good shape right? CHTs are good so your baffling cannot be very bad. My experience is CHT will show evidence of bad baffling more quickly than OT. Can you blow shop air through your cooler and feel pretty good flow out the other side?

Take a picture of you OC installation and post it for us.

RE: Another Thought

Sometime ago i read this article ......
http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182617-1.html?type=pf
Thanks to Don Hall .....
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=60063&highlight=oil+temperature+probe
It got me to thinking again about just how good my GRT temp probe is. It was put on the engine because the Dynon OT probe went south back in 09.
I figured it was still solid because the temp at start up is ambient and then makes a smooth transition to the high max numbers of 240 plus. The thing I think I have overlooked is that the temperature of the oil hits a high point and stays there for the rest of the flight ..... no matter what ....even in decent when you would think it would lower some. I noted after yesterdays flight that the temp on the ground just before turning the engine off was as high as full throttle at altitiude......(243).

So maybe the probe is the problem and should have been checked FIRST ........ but .... we shall see

Thanks to Webb for getting me to check the obvious.......

FRank @ 1L8 ...RV7A...

RE; New Probe Installed

So I finally had a window of time between honey do, family, stufffffff to get out to the airport and install the new FT-LC-01 oil temp probe. I also did a good once over, twice over, ...... of the FWF especially the oil cooler area. All seemed ok but did some RVT touch up in some areas.

Installed the new probe. Close it up and started it up.

Oil pressure was in the upper 80's and never dipped below 69 during the flight( This is where the saga began was low oil pressure).

On climb out the temp slowly climbed to 185 and then in a nanosecond dropped to 15 ......

All other numbers were great. But as I continued the climb the oil temp jumped between 15 and 16. Made the decision to do a touch and go at KDXZ (saint george new airport and if all **** broke loose I would at least be at a big airport) then back to the home patch (Grassy Meadows is the new temporary home while a Breezy is being painted in the 1L8 Hangar).

So ...... another bad probe ( I am assuming the original is bad, maybe I should get schooled and do some resistence checks on it), or bad ground, or ???? any ideas !!!!

During the flight the EGT's, CHT's FP, OP, were all normal.

Next trip out to the airport I will triple ceck all connections and repair if they are the problem. By the way the ground is a forest of grounds on the firewall not the engine. Maybe this is the problem??? This has been the grounding location of the original oil probes (First oil probe was a Dynon single wire with ground to the body and engine....never worked properly, the second even when it was showing what I thought was great numbers 185 to 209 was my first FT-LC-01 installed and worked until.... the 245 plus)

Frank @ 1L8 usually but UT47 temporarily ... RV7A ... Flying kinda

RE: Saga Continues

Pat Stewart said:

Do you by any chance have piston skirt oilers on this engine?

Pat

Click to expand...

This high oil temp puzzel is really trying my patiences......

I finally bought a laser guided heat, seeking temp termometer to test the temp around the engine after flight and thus varify the accuracy of the GRT oil sender to the Dynon EMS.

http://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-IRT206-Thermometer-Sighting/dp/B0016838JU

But first.....in the interest of full disclosure, honesty, and being totally forth coming I must tell Pat that I do not have piston oil squirter...BUT...way back in 07 the good folks at America's gave me cam lobe oil squirters. This revelation came last Friday in a conversation with Steve at America's. They pulled my work order and varified that they were put in knowing at the time they were the best thing since slice bread. Not so fast, oil temps were up with them installed and way way up if the piston squriters were also in the equation. He said the idea was to have pressure oil available to the pistons and cam lobes at start up instead of splash oil. But unintended consequences followed as you are well aware.

By the way long story short the oil temp sensor was varified by the new fancy General Termometer.

I must also give Sonny W. a shout out, that like he found, when checking his Verna that his 90 degree oil filter housing had a a portion of the gasket blocking the path of the Verna. Like him my check of the Verna showed it operated correctly both in expansion when heat was applied and had a nice circular seat on it's crown. Because of the circular crown I assumned it was working correctly. But in my conversation with Steve I mentioned this anomoly and he admitted that there was a time when ECi sent out the bad gasket with the kit and was just installed with out knowing the bad fit was there.

With this information Steve said I should install the correct gasket to rule out that the gasket somehow between May 2011 ( high temp 209) to next flight in June 2011 (high temp 245 plus) may have finally reached a point in ware that it finally impeded the Verna. And if that doesn't do the job the next step would be to take out the cam lob squirters and replace them with p1/8 plugs.......but this still doesn't account for May 2011 209 temps to 245 plus temps in June 2011. How the sqirters cahnge between these flight to increase the temps. Maybe one or more are blocked or.........

So my plan in this saga is to First: remove the oil filter 90 degree adapter and put in the correct gasket. Second: while the adapter is off remove the oil cooler lines and the oil cooler and have them inspected for any problems.
Third: Do my annual inspection and give the aeroplane a good going over. Fourth: after the aeroplane is put back together and test flown then I will go after those pesky cam lobe oil squirters if the temps ARE STILL HIGH!!!!!!!!

Now I know step two above introduces 2 changes....but I refuse to have to take the oil filter adapter off twice just to know which may be the cause....adapter gasket or oil cooler system!!!!!!!

By the way the original problem was my concern for long term low oil ( 55 )pressure coupled with the sudden increase in oil temps. The oil pressure are now in the mid to upper 60's and I am still fine tuning the pressure adjuster to get the sweet spot around 70.

So there you have ...... my plan ..... unless you good folks can change my mind.

By the way Paul if you read this today (Sept. 24, 2011) you have a great birthday and enjoy your stay at Big Bear.

Frank @ 1L8 .... RV7A ... Flying kinda.............

Thanks for the update, Frank! I didn't even know they made cam-lobe squirters...but I would think that would be more desirable than piston skirt squirters. Either way, if you don't need them, and they're having an adverse reaction to your oil temps, I'd take them out.

Still wishing you good luck in finding the solution! I decided to live with my oil temps being "slightly" high during a hot day. I figured 209 (F) at a relatively high power setting isn't real bad. I've noticed the biggest improvement comes from throttling back 100 RPMs.

No Way that It is the Cam Lobe Squirters

Frank, you have a wiring problem. Redo every crimp involved. A bad crimp will cause odd readings like this.

I don't think there is any chance that it is the cam lobe squirters...

Hans

RE:Thanks for info

nucleus said:

Frank, you have a wiring problem. Redo every crimp involved. A bad crimp will cause odd readings like this.

I don't think there is any chance that it is the cam lobe squirters...

Hans

Click to expand...

Hans

As I do the annual I will follow your instructions.

It is interesting to note that Friday after the flight as I shot the thermometer laser on the oil sump it was with in afew degrees of the Dynon EMS Oil Temp number. The case was about 15 degree hotter. The accessory case was within a few degrees. The The oil filter/verna/GRT oil temp sender was within a few degrees. So I conclude the sender was giving a reasonably accurate picture of the real oil temp at the sender. BUT ...... I will check all the crimps and seat of the hot/ground leades wiring of this system.

I do agree that the oil squirters would have been a problem from the beginning and not change after 120 hours of flight......... But what do I know .... I am just an old used up high school chemistry teacher!!!!

Frank @ 1L8 ... RV7A ....

Ultra Tef-Gel

nucleus said:

Frank, you have a wiring problem. Redo every crimp involved. A bad crimp will cause odd readings like this.
Hans

Click to expand...

We put Ultra Tef-Gel anti-corrosive compound from B&C in every crimp...
http://www.bandc.biz/ultratef-gel.aspx

Have you tried a two-wire temp probe yet?

RE: Sensor Type

Yes.....in fact the first was the Dynon single wire.....#2 a two wire GRT was installed shortly after the first flight in Aug. 2009 because #1 was all over the place. It worked great until this past June 2011. #3 was installed in early Sept 2011 and died within he first 15 minutes of flight ........ see #35 of this thread..... So # 4 2 wire GRT was installed Sept 23, 2011. It indicated in the 240's for OT. I checked the Oil sump, engine case, oil filter......all temps were at or near the Dynon OT output (see #36 of this thread).

The RV grin is slowly fadeing......High Gas price, wife not interested in high flying/fast moving/little airplanes/continually chasing problems(probably caused by ME), high insurance costs.........you get the idea.......makes me wonder if it time to pull the plug on my life long and really short lived love affair with flying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A ... N74BZ in sick bay

I would go back to the oil cooler. I am far less a expert then just about everyone posting on VAF however something changed. This would not be a part of the original setup on the engine. The obvious place to look would be the oil cooler. It really seems you must have a obstruction somewhere in the cooler internally or a change in airflow through the cooler.
I have a ECI IO-360. It has 10 to 1 pistons and piston squirters. My head temps are 360 to 370 on a very hot day and oil never exceeds 210 and is usually around 190 to 195 in cruise.

George

RE:Will Do

George

Thanks for the imput. And yes, it is my next move to fix the gasket on the oil filter adapter and then.......

Dig into the oil cooler lines/oil cooler and give them a good going over. If this ends up being the problem I will really have to eat crow. One of my good friend / RV drivers on day one of the problem said," start with the cooler" and I said I think I will go with the sensor/verna/???????? you name it first.

I just want it back to Abbey Normal.... high of 209 and average around 200....

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A .... in sick bay

Engine Ground return to battery

This thread is dated but it sounds ("By the way the ground is a forest of grounds on the firewall not the engine. Maybe this is the problem???") like you may need to run a braided ground strap available at auto stores from your engine to your battery ground or common ground. For most this is the firewall.
The thickness (gauge) needs to be greater than or equal to gauge of the wire going from the alternator to your battery. I am thinking of a braided ground strap 1 to 2 inches wide and 1/8" thick. Dimensions given as example.

Other indication of poor engine ground would be a slow or intermittent starter.

Vince RV8