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Sell me on the RV-4

Doyle231

Member
hi all,

been awhile since I've posted on here. long story short, I'm an engineer who currently owns a nice little c150 and am having a ball flying it but have the speed itch already! i don't want to invest $100k into an rv8/7 when i can have a fast back 180hp c/s rv4 with james cowls etc (idea is to build a 180hp rocket) for much less, I'm 70kg at most and my mrs is 55kg, both short and would love to start building a speed machine. will/would i regret building the rv4 over an 8? my only concern is back seat weight limits of the rv4 and build time. I'm in the best possible position to build that anyone could be in by working for an airline with access to all the tools etc an rv builder could want plus help from fellow engineers! any help would be great!!

James
 
Quick thoughts:
  1. Building an RV-4 will not cost much less than an RV-8 (~$5K in kit cost)
  2. The RV-4 when built, will be worth much less than an RV-8
  3. Build Time/Complexity of the RV-4 will far exceed that of the RV-8
I am not avoiding "selling" you on an RV-4, but I think you should go for the RV-4 on it's own (flying) merits, not an comparative costs to the RV7/8 ;)
 
Ditto Andy! I'm a definite -4 LOVER; but one needs to be practical. Andy makes very valid points.
Best to you in whichever you decide upon.
 
I totally agree with Andy's points. Especially, if you intend to do the mods that you mentioned, it will require some additional build time. But it will give you a very efficient airplane, and a sexy looking too!
 
I totally agree with Andy's post.
I own an RV8 and my instructor an RV4. I love the handling of the 4 compared to the 8. Lighter stick forces, slightly higher roll rate and you feel that the 4 is lighter than the 8.
I think the choice you will make should take into consideration your mission.
If you plan for X/C flying with luggage, the 8 has more fuel and is much more confortable (especially for the passenger). I can fly 6 hours in the 8 without being tired while after 3hours in the 4 it's getting pretty inconfortable I am 1,70m and 60kg.
The CG in the RV4 can be an issue with a heavy passenger but in your case, it will not be one.

The RV4 kit price is $17,325
The RV8 Std kit is $22,440

If my instructor had to do it again, he would build a 8.
But again, it depends on your mission
 
You sit in an RV8 but wear an RV4. Kinda like you get into a BMW M3 but wear a Porsche GT3. Some valid points above have been made already but some additional thoughts. First, you will need at least 180hp on the RV8 but on the RV4 an O320 with 160hp is all you need. Big savings FWF there. I can easily hit redline in my RV4 with O320. While a few kts slower than an RV8 in cruise you will outclimb an -8 everytime. My opinion here but the RV4 looks a lot better when side-by-side with an -8. If you decide to go with a FP prop over C/S then there is additional savings but I love my C/S and would not have it any other way. The -8 is roomier and will carry more baggage, weight, and fuel. My RV4 full fuel max range is 4 hours but I perfer a 1 hour reserve so that is 3 hours....which typically exceeds my bladder's flight time. Visibiltiy is better in a -4 because you have no rollbar in front of you. The fast back will remove your rear view which is not good for ACM. If you really want to go for speed then forget the base RV4 and go HRII. You'll get all the benefits of the -4 plus the fast back and more speed being able to blow by all the other RV8's out there.

Last thought; If your wife will fly with you a lot she would probably be much happier in a side-by-side but if tandem is the way to go then she will prefer the back seat space of the RV8. It is imperative to keep the CEO happy.
 
Cost v mission v time

Hi

From what you have said the RV 4 will fit your mission perfectly. I am about the same weight as you, my wife the same weight as your wife.

I have just done the first test flight on my 4 after a 20 year build. I should point out that I have built/rebuilt several aeroplanes in this period, and built a house and dealt with life in general in this period. If I were to build another 4 it would be a fastback with no bells and whistles, the total focus would be on keeping it light. I think for me it would be doable in a year with my previous experience.

However, as has been said the 4 is a completely different build to an 8 it will take more time...... but will cost less. Which one flies best.... the 4. Which one is more spacious....the 8.

So, if you have more time than money go for the 4, put in really comfortable seats ( I have Oregon aero and they are excellent but a bit heavy). If you have money then try the different aeroplanes and pick.

While the C150 is a great little trainer and good for plodding about in when you have an RV of any type your attitude to the C150 will change completely. All aeroplanes are nice, some really nice and others are excellent, they are called RV's, Glastars, Tailwinds and a few more I could mention.
 
I think you've already made up your mind? :)

I have a theory - it is a theory regarding sales that applies here I think.

A decision to buy something (or do something) is mainly an emotional one. But we humans don't like to say we are doing something just because we like the feel of it. So we rationalize; seek justification. We tell everyone we bought so and so car because of its great mileage; how fast it goes from 0-60, etc. We really bought it because we liked the way it looked?

Lots of good arguments to justify any decision regarding -4 vs. -8. But I suspect you will end up using the ones that support the decision you have already made.

Nothing wrong with that - its going to be a great airplane mainly because it will be yours and you built it because you liked it first.
 
Total Performance...Questions?

hi all,

been awhile since I've posted on here. long story short, I'm an engineer who currently owns a nice little c150 and am having a ball flying it but have the speed itch already! i don't want to invest $100k into an rv8/7 when i can have a fast back 180hp c/s rv4 with james cowls etc (idea is to build a 180hp rocket) for much less, I'm 70kg at most and my mrs is 55kg, both short and would love to start building a speed machine. will/would i regret building the rv4 over an 8? my only concern is back seat weight limits of the rv4 and build time. I'm in the best possible position to build that anyone could be in by working for an airline with access to all the tools etc an rv builder could want plus help from fellow engineers! any help would be great!!

James

James,
I'm a Jurassic RV4 builder having purchased my tail kit in 1989. I built it totally as a leap of faith on a tight budget before the internet, this site or Doug Reeves started his Yahoo chat group in the mid 90's. I bought it after having seen a picture in a magazine of an RV4 with the title Total Performance. For an F16 Pilot living overseas, that was big talk. What I really wanted was an airplane to compete with my Taylorcraft, a very economical, reasonably fast and cheap to own 2 seat personal airplane. The RV6 wasn't out yet and the 3 and 4 were considered easy to build compared to scratch built airplanes. Five years $21,000 later and alot of sweat, and phone calls to Oregon I test flew it, my first RV flight.

However times as they say, have changed.

Knowing what I know now and looking art the current marketplace here is my Dos Centavos:
1. You can buy an RV4 cheaper than you can build one.
2. Yes, as mentioned above, the kits have improved, vastly. Age old question: Why didn't Van upgrade the RV4 kit to current technology? (I've asked him) Easy answer, why break marketing rule one and compete within your own company (RV8)
3. Still my favorite RV and flies better than the RV8 IMHO although I loved my Rocket. A light, simple RV4 is hard to beat for pure sport flying and budget.
4. Total performance? For me is taking off from my grass strip, doing 15 minutes of acro, descending back into my overhead pattern at 180 Knots and landing in 500' at 55 KIAS for under $40K invested. Not many other airplanes can do that.
5. If speed is your only goal, buy something else.

Questions: email me offline [email protected]

V/R
Smokey


"The Bandit" in it's element at U72, total performance...

PS:
I flew my "Bandit" for 10 years and over 1500 amazing hours reaching all 48 lower states, Canada, Mexico and the Bahamas, and uncounted grass mountain airstrips and doing formation aerobatics and stadium flyovers before Youtube and GoPro existed. It's still flying with it's proud F18 Pilot owner.
 
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amazing value in -4s out there...

For a number of reasons, there are many great flying -4s for sale in the low to mid 40k range... far less than they can be built.
 
RV4/RV8

If you have two trained fighter jocks, put one in a 4 and other in an 8 and the 4driver will eat the 8 up. The 4 will turn inside, out climb, and outrun the 8 anytime. Plus the four just looks better. (Read and heed Craig K.)
 
$17,000 for rv4 vs $32,000 for rv8?
As stated above, the $32K is for a QB kit. Standard Build is $22.4K, and in the kit you will far more parts finished to final standard than in the 4 (trust me, having built an 8 and most of a 3!).

Capflyer:
First, you will need at least 180hp on the RV8 but on the RV4 an O320 with 160hp is all you need. Big savings FWF there
I am interested in why you say this? XIO-320 $26.5K, XIO-360 $28.6K and either engine can be used in an RV-4 or an RV-8. All the rest of FWF I think is essentially the same?

All the other points above are valid, and the 4 may well be the better aeroplane for you... My main point on this is that the 4 will be very little less to build in $ terms, and in kit terms, the extra $ is not because "it is an RV-8", but the finish of the parts is in a different league.

And also as echoed above, if $$ is your concern, you might just get back what you paid for an RV-8 kit. You will never do that on a 4 (or 3) IMHO.
 
As a new RV pilot, I'm VERY happy with my purchased of a used but well updated RV-4. If I were building, hands down I'd go with the quick build RV-8 for build quality and time, also the XC benefits are significant. If I were buying used, I'd go RV-4. You can't beat the RV-4 in terms of bang for buck and total performance. Smokey's post is spot on.
 
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RV-4 Fastback with Sam James cowl...Brilliant!!!

The RV-4 Fastback with Sam James Cowl is a great looking plane! Mine has the 180HP and C/S prop and is a joy to fly. And with the engine/prop combo, CG is not a major issue for the back seat. I have had a 260lb pax on a few flights (not recommended but doable). 200lbers several times. And if you build it yourself it can be very comfortable both front and back. I custom built my seats and use to fly every week 900 mile roundtrip flights enjoyably. In the back seat I built a booster seat that placed the seat pan higher for a more comfortable sitting position. This works for <5'8" pax very well. I remove it for taller passengers and have had 6 footers in the back. I am 6'1" and 200lb and again, very comfortable in the front but built it to fit me. Much more baggage capacity volume with the fastback also.

As everyone has already mentioned, you can buy an RV-4 MUCH CHEAPER than you can build one. I bought four RV-4s before I built mine. But building one for YOU is priceless because you can build exactly what I want. It cruises at 180Knots, is cheap to own and while many advocate light and simple...I like the c/s prop for easier landing speed control/steeper descents, shorter takeoffs and for formation flying. My airplane fully equipped and painted came in at 1054lbs.

I bought an RV-8 and flew it for awhile. Didn't like the look or feel and sold it. Flew an RV-8 fastback several times and liked it better but still not for me. Owned an HRII for awhile but just too much $$$$ invested and operating costs too high. The RV-4FB, for me, is just right!

Good luck in your endeavors! Tailwinds!
 
jetj01, thanks to your unreal rv4 im in the position:p as an engineer i could not bring myself to buy another persons kit built aircraft for both quality concerns and all the goodies i would want to add, autopilot etc. id like to think ill use it for x/c often but all we ever do is burn around locally. knowing it is a capable x/c machine helps my decision. the look is one of the main reasons i want a rv4 that and being able to basically own a small rocket without all the costs of owning one! thanks for all the info guys! much appreciated.
 
My opinion is (worth what you paid for it) - if you are buying a plane, buy the RV4. If you are building a plane, build an RV8. Simple enough?..
 
RV-4 yes!

I'll sell you on the 4, first used ones are less $ then 8s because there all older and lesser equipped then most 8s however I think there have been a few newer ones of great quality go for the high $70s wile most old simple ones go for 40 to 50k.

Don't let them steer you away from building the -4, most where built by first time builders, you can do it too. With the right seats you can fly cross country all day, my wife loves riding, my friends never turn down an offer to go flying in the -4, the control harmony is beautiful, I never get tired of flying my -4! There is just something about the 4 the rest just don't capture, there all great but for me it had to be a 4 and I haven't regretted it for one minuet. Oh and I could have built one cheaper then the one I bought but it has been worth every penny!
 
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I've only flown in a single Vans model, the -4, so I have zero weight behind my opinion. Disclaimer aside, I haven't regretted choosing the -4 one bit. It is the perfect plane for my mission, which simply put, was a fun VFR taildragger that could do 'sport' aerobatics with the rare occasion to carry a passenger.

95% of my time is solo and I may only have a few hours in the past 50 I've put on her where I didn't go inverted at least once. An absolute joy. Is it a go some place plane? Some -4s are, mine--not so much. I don't mind a 2/hr flight but beyond that, the bum hurts and it's time to stretch. No gyros, currently no GPS. It's just a get up in the air and fly like you dreamed as a kid type plane.
 
Around the worlder.

Jon Johannson from Oz has flown his around the world twice, carrying 18 hours of fuel:eek: So, yes, it's definitely a "go places" airplane. First time he went west to east, via Oshkosh, next time east to west, via Osh.

Best,
 
James, I'll chime back in as you "want to be sold" on the RV-4. Russ, Smokey, Jj and Nate gave you some good info.

Test pilot Chuck Berthe sold me on the -4 way back about 1990. He built one and loved it. I may have another RV model; but I'll keep the -4 too.

Given your statistics, of you and your wife, you will have no problems with the 4. On x-country, your baggage may be limited with a passenger. I get around that using pre-shipping if going on an extended stay. Also, I've learned how to pack: "take half as many clothes and twice as much money." It works.

Comfort: Oregon Aero seats work wonders. They will extend your range and make life easier for you.

I got the ER extended range tanks which gives me another 8.2 gallons. I can fly 4, or more, hours now with 1 hour in reserve. Using electronic ignition, a modern EFIS with engine monitoring allows you to lean your engine & monitor your fuel flow to get great X-country mileage. The ER guys, Chuck Wilson & Jeff Hanson, flew their 4s non-stop from OSH to McKinney, TX Aero Country (T31). I use mine for business commuting, packing up the rear seat. The 4 IS, by any measure, a very good cross country machine. I can make it from my home, 100 miles N of the Mexican border to Gillette, WY easily in a day with daylight to burn and a couple, 2, leisurely stops. I like to go by Douglas, WY as the folks are so doggone nice there!!

Get an autopilot. That sweetens life for you. I'll not be without one now.

I could go on; but with the others info and mine I don't think you need any more. If this helps you, I am so very happy & pleased with my RV4. I could own a different model; but I don't because I LOVE MY -4 as it serves me so well, turns me on every time I look at it and I dream about it when I'm not with it. I, repeat, I, have no regrets about owning a -4. I don't think you will either.

So build yourself a -4, read the VAF forum regularly; and be happy for the rest of your life!!! :D

Cheers,
 
the safeair tanks? with auto pilot, er tanks, 180hp the weight starts to add up quickly. would a 180hp rv4 be limited with standard tanks?
 
Two more thoughts

Maybe a little OT, but:

Since you are coming from a SBS C-150, consider buying a flying RV-6 or -7. (Or -6a, -7A) Roomier, fewer CG issues, and your wife may like SBS better.

The really big issue is buying vs flying. If you look at a number of threads here on VAF, you will begin to realize that some people prefer the challenge of building as a primary goal, and flying comes later.

Others are flyers, who build to have a plane to fly.

If you are a builder, then build. And enjoy the build.

If you are a flyer, then buy.

YMMV, but worth at least $2 ( formerly 2 cents), plus whatever you donate to this forum. :)
 
the safeair tanks? with auto pilot, er tanks, 180hp the weight starts to add up quickly. would a 180hp rv4 be limited with standard tanks?

I don't think you will be limited at all James. Jeff Hanson (of HW Aviation) has them on his 180 hp -4 with a Catto 3 blade prop. Jeff is a good 225 pounder also. He takes his wife Suzie flying regularly too. He backseats with Chuck in his 4 often too.

Go to: http://www.safeair1.com/fueltanks/rv4ertanks.php for some more details about the tanks. Total weight is about 10 lbs. My total empty weight w/the tanks is 969 lbs. To better understand the weight of my 4, it is an O-320 w/Catto 3 blade, Dynon Flt DEK-180, HS34, SL-30, SL-40, PS Engineering 4000, GTX-327, GPS-496, Trio EZ Pilot w/Altitude stuff. Dual P-mags, Bell tail wheel, Oregon Aero seats & paint.

No aerobatics permitted when using the ER tanks. The beauty of them is you don't have to use them; but sure come in handy when you're long tripping. I fly an hour on each tank then turn both on for about 15 minutes. They drain into the main tanks, all of it. Then turn them off and forge ahead. With the autopilot, the fuel management gives you something to mentally play with as you zip along. :) If I'm not going on a trip, just don't use them.

The O-360 would be my engine choice. I have an O-320 just because it was in my lap & I'd be stupid not to use it. The O-360 can/will give you the same economy as the 320 with similar settings; but you have the horses available if you need them. Just like the ER tanks. Good to have.

I'm going to continue on the "Sell me on the RV-4". I have a 4 because it is a RV-4!!! I don't want a side by side. Nothing wrong/bad about them; but they aren't a RV-4. I've flown all the RVs except the 3, 12 & 14. The -4 TURNS ME ON!!! It EXCITES ME. When I crawl on the wing of the -4, I'm Bob Hoover climbing into his P-51! I'm Richard Bong climbing into his P-38!! I'm Pappy Boyington climbing into his F4U Corsair!!! I climb into a 6, 7, 9, 10 or 12; well, I'm just ole Deal Fair climbing into a 6, 7, 9, 10 or 12. Now, I like those airframes and they are great; but they don't "trip my trigger" if you will. I go fly the RV-4 and I compare the experience to CLIMBING OUT OF THE RACK WITH A BOMBASTIC 20 YEAR OLD NYMPHETTE!!! :D I go fly a 6,7, 9, 10 (I've not flown the 12; but I'm not enthusiastic) and I compare the experience to being placed in a grocery cart & rolled down aisle 10 while looking for a can of Green Giant chopped spinach. :eek:

That's just me. Get what YOU want. THAT, is the beauty of these RVs. YOU have choices. ...I'm not swapping mine for a side by side.

Cheers,
 
Deal Fair

Hey that just about sums it up!! In my case I am Dougie Bader (but with two legs). I could possibly get almost as passionate about an 8, but in the back of my mind I know its not as a good a handler as the 4. Now where is that Nymph hiding....... in my hangar waiting to be flown tomorrow!!
 
This is the best rant ever! Well done sir!

I'm going to continue on the "Sell me on the RV-4". I have a 4 because it is a RV-4!!! I don't want a side by side. Nothing wrong/bad about them; but they aren't a RV-4. I've flown all the RVs except the 3, 12 & 14. The -4 TURNS ME ON!!! It EXCITES ME. When I crawl on the wing of the -4, I'm Bob Hoover climbing into his P-51! I'm Richard Bong climbing into his P-38!! I'm Pappy Boyington climbing into his F4U Corsair!!! I climb into a 6, 7, 9, 10 or 12; well, I'm just ole Deal Fair climbing into a 6, 7, 9, 10 or 12. Now, I like those airframes and they are great; but they don't "trip my trigger" if you will. I go fly the RV-4 and I compare the experience to CLIMBING OUT OF THE RACK WITH A BOMBASTIC 20 YEAR OLD NYMPHETTE!!! :D I go fly a 6,7, 9, 10 (I've not flown the 12; but I'm not enthusiastic) and I compare the experience to being placed in a grocery cart & rolled down aisle 10 while looking for a can of Green Giant chopped spinach. :eek:

Cheers,
 
Mr. Fair,

"The -4 TURNS ME ON!!! It EXCITES ME. When I crawl on the wing of the -4, I'm Bob Hoover climbing into his P-51! I'm Richard Bong climbing into his P-38!! I'm Pappy Boyington climbing into his F4U Corsair!!!

and

"I go fly the RV-4 and I compare the experience to CLIMBING OUT OF THE RACK WITH A BOMBASTIC 20 YEAR OLD NYMPHETTE!!! :D"

You have proven that we are somehow related! You Sir have best described my exact thoughts on the 8...

If you make it to Sun n Fun or ever in Palm Beach FL. PM me and beer/coffee is on me.

Regards,

Scott
 
I have both, I know it's not fair................

I have an RV4 with 1700+ hours on it that I bought used. It was a 1984 kit, finished in 1989. Since I've owned it I have upgraded it slightly and am getting ready to put an O340 just because I already have it. My eight has an O360 with a constant speed prop and 365 hours on it. Hands down, the 4 flies much better than the 8 you can feel the difference. Could be that the 8 is heavier, longer wing, whatever, I don't know, I don't care, I bought the 8 because it was a fixer upper and a really good deal. The biggest issues with 4's have already been mentioned in earlier post. With my Catto prop, my 4 has an aft cg issue with anybody in the back seat much over 150 lbs. I know you can buy one cheaper than build one 4 or 8 especially if you have cash :eek:. If you are good with tools and mechanically inclined, buying a fixer upper and upgrading it can fun, not necessarily easy, but fun. I have owned two 4's and two 8's don't get me wrong, they are both fine airplanes each have benefits, it just depends on what your mission is.
 
This is the best rant ever! Well done sir!

Yup - that's kinda how it is... the side-by-side ones are sociable, and handle pretty much as well.....
...but for me, nothing beats strapping in & closing the lid on my '4.....it's every inch a 'personal fighter', and optimised for the pilot experience..
... with the added bonus of a back seat to share the ride..

Buy one & fly it !!
 
fuay4w.jpg
 
That's the original paint job on the -4. It was professionally painted back in 1989, I do not have the equipment nor skill to duplicate that which a good paint shop can do. She now has over 2200 tach hrs on that airframe and going strong. Wouldn't trade her for one of the other RV's but am looking for an equally nice Pitts S1S with 180 hp. That would be the second airplane as someone asked on another thread.

Cheers,

Hans "Cobra" Miesler
 
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