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Now that's just mean

skelrad

Well Known Member
Friend
I've been inventorying my fuselage today. Bags of random bolts is no biggie, but when I got to this bag of washers, which came on the tail of sorting through a bag of mixed nuts, I threw in the towel for the day. One bag with 7 or 8 variations of washers all mixed together. I guess I should just be thankful they don't use the same method for solid rivets.

I do have to say, all in all, the packers and people who crate these kits are absolute masters. Pretty impressive...minus the bag of mixed washers :rolleyes:

Speaking of, hypothetically speaking (you know, "I have a friend...") is it a big deal if one were to mistakenly dump the NAS washers in with a bin of AN washers? :eek:
 

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bugger... that is mean.

Consider it good practice for your hand-eye coordination. You'll be surprised how fast you'll get those sorted though. It's not as bad as having to sort out a large tray of solid rivets after you kick them onto the floor (yes.... many times in my career). The man who invents a magnet that picks up aluminium is going to make a fortune. :)
 
It's RV boot camp. Van's is here to educate you. By the time you sort out all of those washers, you will know their size, shape, and part number by heart.....;)
 
Very useful

That bag is very useful.
I would put it aside. Once it becomes time to need it to find a lost washer, you will be able to identify the hardware on sight.
 
If you got kids, sorting washers sounds like a great game to get them involved. You just need to use a bit of Huck Finn logic.
 
Bags....

For the most part, we don't look into the bags when they arrive. Look for the existence of the bag. If it's got stuff in it that we don't recognize, it gets checked. You are right, they are masters at this game.

Enjoy the fuse!

Mike
 
If that's the worst of your build problems, you'll be in great shape!
 
You’ll get used to this

It's RV boot camp. Van's is here to educate you. By the time you sort out all of those washers, you will know their size, shape, and part number by heart.....;)

Yep. This. I’ve helped a friend working on his airplane lately, and can rattle off the part numbers of the hardware by just looking at it. He checks the plans, and says “How do you know that?!?!?”

You’ll get used to this. Enjoy the build.
 
I've been inventorying my fuselage today. Bags of random bolts is no biggie, but when I got to this bag of washers, which came on the tail of sorting through a bag of mixed nuts, I threw in the towel for the day. One bag with 7 or 8 variations of washers all mixed together. I guess I should just be thankful they don't use the same method for solid rivets.

I do have to say, all in all, the packers and people who crate these kits are absolute masters. Pretty impressive...minus the bag of mixed washers :rolleyes:

Speaking of, hypothetically speaking (you know, "I have a friend...") is it a big deal if one were to mistakenly dump the NAS washers in with a bin of AN washers? :eek:

Probably takes less time to sort the washers than to write your post.... ;)
 
I plan to leave that bag, exactly as you describe it, in the pocket alongside the passenger seat. I may even add a few AN bolts, nuts and rivets. Once airborne, I'm going to point it out to them and say that there were a few parts left over from my build, and if they can see any place where I forgot to install one, would they please let me know.
 
Speaking of, hypothetically speaking (you know, "I have a friend...") is it a big deal if one were to mistakenly dump the NAS washers in with a bin of AN washers? :eek:

The "random bag of similar hardware" is always fun to sift through.

FWIW, you can use NAS in place of AN but not vice-versa. The NAS hold tighter tolerances for thickness.
 
mean

I plan to leave that bag, exactly as you describe it, in the pocket alongside the passenger seat. I may even add a few AN bolts, nuts and rivets. Once airborne, I'm going to point it out to them and say that there were a few parts left over from my build, and if they can see any place where I forgot to install one, would they please let me know.

Now this is mean. if you want to be really mean, you tell them this after the experimental aircraft briefing, where you tell them this is not a factory built plane....
 
Ahh, but they do!

I guess I should just be thankful they don't use the same method for solid rivets. said:
Ahh, but they do! When I did the inventory on my QB Fuse Kit, couldn't believe they put a handful of AN426AD3-3.5 and AN426AD3-4 rivets in the same little bag. Really??? :)
 

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Passenger warning: hold this bag of parts......

I plan to leave that bag, exactly as you describe it, in the pocket alongside the passenger seat. I may even add a few AN bolts, nuts and rivets. Once airborne, I'm going to point it out to them and say that there were a few parts left over from my build, and if they can see any place where I forgot to install one, would they please let me know.

Now THAT is FUNNY!:D:D:D:D:D
 
What’s mean is needing just one more washer and you are out of the size you need.
 
Years ago Van's would toss in some scrap pieces from behind the shear.......

They came in very handy.
 
I had always hated the inventory part the most but have been very lucky to have a wonderful mother in law with an OCD. She did the inventory and sorted them out the neatest way
 
side question... what do most folks do with all the random hardware? sort them into little bags and throw the bags on a shelf?
little plastic bins like you'd see in the hardware store?
little boxes?

how many bins/boxes would a new builder need setting up a shop?
 

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Now this is mean. if you want to be really mean, you tell them this after the experimental aircraft briefing, where you tell them this is not a factory built plane....

Back when I was renting 172's for my flying I had one that was, shall we say, well worn. I was flying with a friend of mine and the air vent was a bit loose. We were cruising along when the vent assembly just popped completely out and landed in my lap.

So of course I picked it up, turned to my friend and said, "huh, wing bolt".

I miss her.
 
I use stacking tilt bins for the rivets:

IMG_6346.jpeg

They are removable, so I can bring them to where I work. Haven't had a major rivet spillage yet, but probably will at some point :rolleyes:

For "standard" hardware, I use tray utility boxes:

IMG_6348.jpeg

Not excited, the plastic quality is pretty bad. However, they have fixed internal separators, which is what I wanted.

During inventory, I counted every single washer (two washers and one cotter pin were missing!), but I don't itemize them. If I need more, I'll buy more.

For unique hardware I use flat storage case with small boxes. Hardware gets paper tags and also get entered into my inventory spreadsheet with location ("O2" == Organizer #2):

IMG_6349.jpeg


The concept was to have containers that are closed from the dust (deburring & priming generates a lot of dust), no removable separators (because they will remove themself at some point mixing everything together), easy for a beginner (first major kit -- fuselage -- no prior experience with aviation hardware).

Eventually, I might switch to the tilting bins for the hardware that is very common, and leave smaller boxes for less used stuff.
 
It's RV boot camp. Van's is here to educate you. By the time you sort out all of those washers, you will know their size, shape, and part number by heart.....;)

There are a couple of rare spacers for the FWF rod ends hidden in there too!

If you got kids, sorting washers sounds like a great game to get them involved. You just need to use a bit of Huck Finn logic.

If that's the worst of your build problems, you'll be in great shape!
ROTFL
Probably takes less time to sort the washers than to write your post.... ;)

+1 Considering it all, we collectively spent enough time reading this to make an elevator.

Storage: YMMV I like the 3700 series storage boxes with variable size pockets. Each year Cabelas/Bass Pro has a sale and they are 1/2 off. I use all the small bits - rivets, AN, screws, adel, fast-on, shrink tubing, tubing hardware, zip ties . . . etc. Hard to knock over and easy to see. The hard part is getting labels to stick. Iso, and flame treatment?? I must have a couple dozen+ of these.

Separating 3.5 and 4 rivets makes a real , determined builder out of you. BTDT
 
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Bag Lady

You all probably have shadow boxes for all your tools too?

If i had my tools in shadow boxes, I would need a whole wall; if I sorted all my hardware, i would probably still be on the wing kit.

I liked keeping the stuff in the bags because the bags roughly made sense with the build steps.

Don't tell Vans, but I never inventoried the hardware bags, I just made sure all the bags were accounted for. I figure if a bag was missing parts, then others would have the same shortage and would have already told Vans. Thank you all for checking the hardware bags for me, much appreciated.

JMHO. YMMV
 
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You all probably have shadow boxes for all your tools too?

If i had my tools in shadow boxes, I would need a whole wall; if I sorted all my hardware, i would probably still be on the wing kit.

I liked keeping the stuff in the bags because the bags roughly made sense with the build steps.

Don't tell Vans, but I never inventoried the hardware bags, I just made sure all the bags were accounted for. I figure if a bag was missing parts, then others would have the same shortage and would have already told Vans. Thank you all for checking the hardware bags for me, much appreciated.

JMHO. YMMV

I think you're right on. In the tail, wing, and now fuselage kits, the only thing I've found was a single bolt that had no threads. Of course it was not a common bolt, so I had to replace it. I don't count most things, but I do sort out the common stuff and store it together. The one-off random stuff and small volume hardware tends to stay in bags until I need it.
 
But why?

Vans does a great job sorting fasteners and such into little sub kit bags. The problem I see (unless I’ve missed something) is that the plans do not cross reference the parts as sorted. How do I know which bag I need for each step/drawing? Am I missing something? It seems easier to just sort and bag by part number.
 
Good practice for when you knock your small parts organizer onto the floor. Yes, it will happen.
 
Bingo

Vans does a great job sorting fasteners and such into little sub kit bags. The problem I see (unless I’ve missed something) is that the plans do not cross reference the parts as sorted. How do I know which bag I need for each step/drawing? Am I missing something? It seems easier to just sort and bag by part number.

You get the big prize.
I wondered for a while. Got a headache!
It has to cost more in manpower to sort all that different hardware into bags. They could easily figure out exactly how many of every piece of hardware is required per kitnor per airplane. Heck, I can sort my spreadsheet in a few seconds and tell them for both the 7 and 7A. They could sell hardware kits or include a kit sorted by fastener rounded to the nearest bagged quantity. Easy to adjust the numbers for each kit to avoid waste at the end. Ok. Maybe they count some of the expensive NAS stuff. Still cheaper manpower.
 
Use the packing list/inventory sheet that came with your kit. It lists the part numbers for all the parts that are in each bag.

That’s about the only way to do it. Somebody went through the trouble of counting rivets on a particular drawing so a simple “Parts Required” list on the first page of a drawing would sure make it easy.
 
Maybe someone could modify a change sorting machine from the bank into a washer sorting machine.

When I built my Carbon Cub, all the fasteners were sorted into little ziplock bags. Yep, a bag with one #10 washer.

It was still a royal pain.
 
just me

I agree the Vans parts sorting is not the greatest, but all the solutions y'all are proposing I don't really like either.
The inventory lists in general associates the hardware bags with the operation; I found that to be very useful.
I would not want to pay more for a exact parts sort on every kit. And I don't want to have to read ever part spec to figure out what I need for each assembly. With the exception of the general extra hardware bag Vans throws in to each kit for those of use that tend to loose socks in dryers, the hardware packages make it pretty easy to figure out what hardware is what.

For example, if the inventory list says "wing bracket hardware", and the wing bracket assembly requires the higher tolerance MS washers and not the AN version, you can be pretty sure the wing bracket hardware bag has the correct washers, without having to measure each one. JMHO

For me, going through each bag and putting the hardware into parts bins, and then matching drawing call outs and "kitting" the hardware for each assembly from those bins, seemed like a waste of time to me. I always just put the hardware bags associated with that particular kit in a separate shoe box. I have a wing kit shoebox, a fuse shoebox, a finish kit shoe box, etc.

So know, when I need a wing bolt, I can go to the wing shoebox and am sure to get the proper bolt from the hardware bag.
 
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I also just leave the hardware in the small ziplock baggies from vans. Then I cross reference them with the inventory sheet when I need a certain rivet, screw, nutplate, etc. The only exception is for very common or large quantity rivets, like an AN426AD3-3.5. Anything else seems to take too much time which just reduces the amount of time that I'm actually building.
 
If you value your sanity, I highly recommend *not* using these bins. They are neither closed on top (so dropping one will spill it everywhere) and when wall-mounted on rails are prone to working themselves off said rails as you use adjacent bins... Leading to a cascading failure of stacks of bins onto the floor.

I use a combination of items mentioned earlier... tilt-bins (wall mounted, and used one at a time so my liability to dropping one is just the contents of that one), and the briefcase-shaped trays with individual cups.
 

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Still, I think the root of this method assumes that there will be a paper copy of the inventory. And so to limit paper and copying costs, the information is necessarily limited.

In this day of .pdf files which can be HUGE without causing too many problems, I wonder if the whole thing could be re-done.

What about a list for each type of fastener which would tell you all the places where that fastener will be needed? So, you might get a bag of specific bolts, and you'd also have a note on a .pdf saying that those bolts will be needed in the following assemblies: by subkit (empenage, HS) by manual page (instructions, page XX) and illustration (page number)

Perhaps this sounds like madness, but consider finding a bag you'd carefully made of An3-4a bolts, and now you forget why and where they were to go. Such a list might help. Such a list might also help you re-bag your components into assembly specific bags, so you'd have one for the rudder and another for the VS, etc.

It's all logistics. I'm guessing some smart IT person could search through the written manual and illustrations and put this together.

Or should I have stopped after the second cup of coffee?
 
I inventoried *almost* every bag, but did throw in the towel on that one! Overall came up with about 3 stiffeners/braces, and maybe 20 misc hardware items (bolts, etc). Vans was great about it and shipped the missing parts very quickly (faster than I could possibly use them!)

Agree that there should be a better way for inventory. Biggest issue at the start of the kit is trying to figure out which inventory piece to make certain items from. A PDF file, or some electronic document with plans page, part number, and inventory bag number would be useful.

As for storage, I've had good luck with the Stanley 25 bin organizers. Have four of them. (HF sells a similar product, which may be just as good, but the bins are not interchangeable with the Stanley. Recc. sticking with one or the other for maximum customization). They are stackable, easy to transport, and it seems hard to cross contaminate the bins.
 
I inventoried *almost* every bag, but did throw in the towel on that one! Overall came up with about 3 stiffeners/braces, and maybe 20 misc hardware items (bolts, etc). Vans was great about it and shipped the missing parts very quickly (faster than I could possibly use them!)

Agree that there should be a better way for inventory. Biggest issue at the start of the kit is trying to figure out which inventory piece to make certain items from. A PDF file, or some electronic document with plans page, part number, and inventory bag number would be useful.

As for storage, I've had good luck with the Stanley 25 bin organizers. Have four of them. (HF sells a similar product, which may be just as good, but the bins are not interchangeable with the Stanley. Recc. sticking with one or the other for maximum customization). They are stackable, easy to transport, and it seems hard to cross contaminate the bins.

I like the portable/stackable organizers as well. The Husky ones at Home Depot are a great value. I've got 4 of them, which are able to hold virtually all of the hardware and still be portable and secure from spilling. I don't have the bench or wall space to go the route of having a single bin for every single piece of hardware, so I just group things together. I'll put all of the AN3-6 bolts in a labeled bag (the 3x4 jewelry baggies on Amazon work great for this) and all of the AN3-6A bolts in a bag, but then put them in the same bin. It's super easy to find what I need this way without needing 500 bins.
 

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Biggest gripe

My biggest gripe, which is actually quite small, is that Vans did not include a bolt length guide in my elevator kit. My biggest headache, as far as parts go, has not been the parts bagging ( i kind of like the way it is done), but the fact that there is no way to quickly tell what bolt length is a dash 6, for example. I saw a simple sheet metal template or guide that a builder had. Sure wish I had had one.
 
My biggest gripe, which is actually quite small, is that Vans did not include a bolt length guide in my elevator kit. My biggest headache, as far as parts go, has not been the parts bagging ( i kind of like the way it is done), but the fact that there is no way to quickly tell what bolt length is a dash 6, for example. I saw a simple sheet metal template or guide that a builder had. Sure wish I had had one.

Very easy to make!
 
My biggest gripe, which is actually quite small, is that Vans did not include a bolt length guide in my elevator kit. My biggest headache, as far as parts go, has not been the parts bagging ( i kind of like the way it is done), but the fact that there is no way to quickly tell what bolt length is a dash 6, for example. I saw a simple sheet metal template or guide that a builder had. Sure wish I had had one.

https://aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?id=AE1350
 
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