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Does Radio Use Assure Safety?

Toobuilder

Well Known Member
Axel’s recent poll on radio use brought out some interesting responses, not the least of which was his tale of his latest harrowing experience. Thought it was a shame the thread was closed without exploring/commenting on his near head on.

His incident on reminds me of at least two similar instances I’ve seen in my short flying career. The first was with my instructor practicing landings at an often used, but uncontrolled field. We were on short final after working the pattern for a while, and making all the standard calls. All of the sudden, there’s a Barron coming right at us on a missed approach to the opposite runway. My instructor grabbed the airplane and sidestepped to the right so the Barron could pass us on the left. Never heard a prior radio call, and he never responded to my instructors “animated” query. Our radio was certainly working and properly tuned…

The second was years later in Axel's backyard – Cal City Airport. I refueled and called my taxi from “fuel to runway six” (the seldom used, but this day, favored runway). I completed my runup, cleared the pattern and announced “…entering runway six for departure…” As I lined up and was advancing the throttle, I get a quick call from a light twin on “short final – straight in” to runway 24. This was his one and only call. So I held my position for the 30 seconds it took for the guy to land (downwind) and clear the runway. I had a few quick words about the straight in approach to a downwind landing with an airplane on the roll, but he replied something to the effect “uncontrolled field, deal with it”.

So I guess my point is that we should do our best to communicate clearly, but pushing that transmit button does not relieve you of your responsibility to keep a lookout at all times. I’m of the opinion that somebody is still going to go out of their way to try kill me, no matter how well the radio chatter is going.
 
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Without a doubt, listening and transmitting on the radio does not relieve us from the responsibility to SEE and avoid. Well need to understand that it is perfectly legal to fly around without a radio. And if there is an experienced pilot out there that has NEVER found their radio tuned to the wrong frequency after landing at an uncontrolled field, let them cast the first stone.

I am about as hi-tech as they come, but I grew up in radio-less Cubs, and know full well that with the freedom of flying that way comes the responsibility to LOOK for other traffic. I never trust that all of the traffic is on the radio, nor is it all shown on the TIS/TCAS/etc.

See and avoid, keep your head on a swivel, use whatever radio you have as diligently as possible - and understand that there are others out there that might simply be having a bad day and their headset is broken. (Yes, there are also a lot of folks that really don't give a rip about anyone but themselves and will ignore all proper procedures and protocols - treat them the same way you would a rookie, because the effect is the same).

Many procedures in aviation are arbitrary (left hand patterns, for instance), and the only way that we know what "the other guy" is going to do is because we count on everyone playing to the same set of rules. If you decide that you are going to play by a different set, you are an outlaw. But let's remember that folks will make honest mistakes as well. We protect ourselves from those mistakes by staying vigilant.

Paul
 
If you are going to be a pilot, you should ride a street motorcycle for a few years before. This is a very good way to see how other people think, and how to survive.

There is a reason why all new motorcycles run headlights full time. Turn on your landing light 15 miles from landing so people can see you.
 
A Personal Gripe

This has zero to do with radio usage and a lot to do with aircraft designers. For a lot of airplanes visibility from the cockpit is really pretty bad. It's as if when the airplane is being laid out back in the very beginning, the designer didn't have visibility from the cockpit in mind at all.

If you can, compare the difference between an RV-6 and an RV-12. The RV-6 isn't all that great. The RV-12 has remarkably better visibility. In fact, even downward it's better than from my high wing Cessna 180. With the RV-12, I understand that visibility was designed into the airplane.

If you use cushions to put your head as high as is practical, that'll help. Don't bury yourself behind the panel.

Now you as the owner can help out too. For example, don't paint the plane one of those gray or silvery colors. It's so difficult to spot in the air. Either go way dark or way bright. In some parts of the country, very light colors might also suffice.

And don't forget your lights - in the daytime they aren't as useful as the color choice but they sure help IF THEY'RE ON.

Finally, whether or not you have one of those traffic detectors like the Zaon XRX, please keep your transponder on so that I can see you on mine.

Okay, rant done for today. Thanks for reading.

Dave
 
If you are going to be a pilot, you should ride a street motorcycle for a few years before. This is a very good way to see how other people think, and how to survive.

There is a reason why all new motorcycles run headlights full time. Turn on your landing light 15 miles from landing so people can see you.

I considered a bike some years ago and in the process read a safety article about some poor soul who got run over by a dozen of so vehicles on a California freeway. It was a mess. That cured me of bike fever at the time, but still wish I had done it.

To respond to the question "Does radio use assure safety?, it does not - but it helps. It is part of a formula of safety practices, like common sense and eternal caution, that enhance long life in an airplane, but there are no guarantees. Never have been, never will be. Anything that moves when you are in it or on it incurs risk, even stuff that does not move, like a ladder, incurs risk. That's life.
 
I have a. -6

And my visibility is superb. The only place I can't see is through the wing. Taxiing is a different story, but airborne it's great. It's certainly better than any certified bird I've flown. To what are you referring?
 
Radios are great tools. But like flight following, running strobes, flying a standard pattern, etc, they're no assurance that you're free and clear. I get the sense that some people forget that. That, or they're just taking an extreme view to make a point on a forum (most of us have been down that road).

My two examples were with me making all the appropriate radio calls and I STILL got a "close encounter"... The only other hair raising near miss was while actively under the "watchful eye" of ATC on flight following.

I guess I feel that as long as we're VFR, aircraft separation lies with each of us. That responsibility can?t be transferred with a radio call and doesn't end until we're tied down or in the hangar.
 
I had a few quick words about the straight in approach to a downwind landing with an airplane on the roll, but he replied something to the effect ?uncontrolled field, deal with it?.

There was a gent at DTS about 15 or so years ago with a long-eze who was notorious for this kind of stuff. Cutting people out in the pattern, landing the wrong way, being unproffesional on the radio about it, etc.

One day he sent a Lear around landing the otherway, and said the exact same thing on the radio (us line guys made a habit to watch his shennanigans). They whipped it around the pattern, landed, and both pilots went over and 'dealt' with him. Not sure who threw the first punch, but I know the two who walked away....
 
Assure, no.

Augment, yes.

100% with Mike on this. Having suffered a radio failure and watching the Mooney driver pull onto the active while I was on short final (he never looked once), I am certain a radio transmission would have gotten his attention, but you can't fix that kind of stupid.
I do not always use my radio on every transition or position change, most of the time, but not always. We suffer with two common frequencies 22.8 and 22.9 that are shared by multiple airports in close proximity. Sometimes you simply can not get a word in edgewise before your transitioning your position.

Eyes out, ears open, communicate as often and appropriately as you can.

...and yes Paul, I have more than once slipped a digit on the radio and wondered why nobody was responding to me.
 
I rode a motorcycle on the Southern California freeways for years. I didn't ride "defensive", I rode scared, expecting everyone else to do the worst possible thing at the worst possible time. I learned how to survive and I am still here.

I fly a Pietenpol right now with no electrical system and no radio around an uncontrolled airport. My behaviour is the same as I still worry about the guy that I didn't see or didn't see me and I always have a plan B (and sometimes C).

Head on a swivel is a start but having an "out" is also important.
 
The other thing to remember with radio use is that moden aviation grade radio equipment has two modes. Mode one is for talking and seems to be used quite a bit, sometimes so much so that others can't get a word in edgewise. Mode two is for listening and this mode is often more effective than the first.

If you start "listening" at least 5 miles out you can get a mental image of where the "talking" traffic is. Of course, you still have to bear in mind that people frequently do not report where they actually are but where they will likely be at some undetermined time in the future. And still the previously mentioned NORDO traffic.

My formula - LOOK - LISTEN - talk (if you can).
 
I rode a motorcycle on the Southern California freeways for years. I didn't ride "defensive", I rode scared, expecting everyone else to do the worst possible thing at the worst possible time. I learned how to survive and I am still here.

When riding a bike, there are two kinds of people you have to watch out for:
The ones that can't see you, and the ones that can!
 
how good is your comm?

The other thing to remember with radio use is that moden aviation grade radio equipment has two modes. Mode one is for talking and seems to be used quite a bit, sometimes so much so that others can't get a word in edgewise. Mode two is for listening and this mode is often more effective than the first.

If you start "listening" at least 5 miles out you can get a mental image of where the "talking" traffic is. Of course, you still have to bear in mind that people frequently do not report where they actually are but where they will likely be at some undetermined time in the future. And still the previously mentioned NORDO traffic.

My formula - LOOK - LISTEN - talk (if you can).

Steve, you hit the nail on the head.....I like to listen to the traffic when I'm in the clubhouse, are at home in my office. Amzaing how frequently the calls make NO sense, and tell very little about the position or intentions of the flyer!
seems a LOT of us have forgotten the first few hours of dual, where we made those long, awkward, but INFORMATIVE calls, actually conveying aircraft ID, position, altitude, and intentions!
some of the worst offenders are the newly minted 'pros' who rattle off things like ...."aaaaah raj, EM six with you at 9, we're 5 outta Bravo, 7 whiskey an, ah, (mumble intelligible) ....for point 5".
so, where do I look for this guy?
 
In February of this year, I was flying an Instrument Approach into Lake Havasu City (KHII). RNAV (GPS) RWY 14 with AWOS reporting winds 120 @ 5.

Reported on UNICOM at the IAF (12.5 NM out) over a VOR that I was 12.5 miles north over the VOR. Reported again 6 NM north just inside the Final Approach Fix. Reported again at 3-mile Initial for an overhead. At 3-miles, I have a twin report departing runway 32.

I always make calls at non-towered airports even if my radio is on the wrong frequency.

With two Apollo Radios that can monitor the standby frequency, I am always listening to Guard, Flight Watch, and Center even if I am not using flight following. Have had several occasions that ATC made a broadcast in the blind to me (aircraft at such and such position, altitude) and I responded. Once was for a jump plane. I took a vector so that the jump could take place. On another occasion, I was called as traffic for a SouthWest flight. I responded to ATC and told them that I would accept a vector for the SouthWest traffic and that I had them in sight. Was given a 30 degree left turn and SouthWest was cleared to continue their decent. I was thanked, given resume own navigation, and a frequency change once SouthWest was passed.

The radio still does not excuse us from see and avoid even when on an IFR flight plan.
 
What Mike S. said ++++

Back when I was flying for the commuter, on one fine VFR day tower cleared us on to the active for takeoff. I replied, "Comair 1234, Is it okay if we wait for that Delta 727 on short final to land first?" After a short, but extremely pregnant silence, I heard "Comair 1234, hold short for landing traffic, ...thanks."
 
Use all of your "tools" when flying, just because someone says they are west doesn't mean that they aren't actually east. Just because you broadcast your position and intentions doesn't mean they were heard or understood.

My closest midairs were with airplanes inbound/outbound to another airport on another frequency within 20 miles of my destination.

See and Avoid!
 
My closest call came on my first student solo cross country. I was at an uncontrolled field with a pair of crossing runways. Due to a slight rise and trees, the runup area of one runway was not visible from the runup area of the crossing runway. Wind were light. I used the recommended (for noise) light wind runway. It is always possible I was on the wrong frequency, but I don't think so. Being a student I carefully broadcast my takeoff intensions. Airborne, just before the runway intersection, a twin flashed across in front of and above me. I don't know if he had been in the runup area, out of sight, or had simply come straight in, low,to the crossing runway for a touch and go or a low approach and I just didn't see him (or maybe he was blocked by the trees, I don't know). But I was shaken, that's for sure.
So I'll ask the question no one wants to: Is it time to realize that it's no longer 1935, or even 1955? Is it time to require aircraft that have radios to actually use them? I know there will still be frequency mistakes, and a few no radio aircraft. You still have to look. But most of the incidents I've seen, just as reported here, are with radio equipped aircraft but pilots whose attitude is "I'm not required to use a radio, so I'll be damned if I will."
 
So I'll ask the question no one wants to: Is it time to realize that it's no longer 1935, or even 1955? Is it time to require aircraft that have radios to actually use them?

How many accidents (mid-airs, etc.) resulted from one or more of the aircraft involved not having radios? Without that key piece of data, I think any such decision would be made on speculation, not information..
 
You don't have to have a radio to be safe, unfortunately too many people rely on the radio even though they only understand half of what is said.
Some pilots are so preoccupied with talking on the radio they forget to fly the plane and look for traffic. I think more people misuse the radio then don't use it. How many syllables in "Any traffic in the area please advise" that aren't already implied?

Aviate-Navigate-Communicate!

I know some people should use their radios more, but I think the bigger problem is people not flying proper traffic patterns (I love hearing 10 mile straight in on the radio) and a lack of situational awareness.
 
Only you

I have enjoyed both threads/very informative.
I drive my Gold wing, like I drive My car and also my RV-6 and boat. I know that people will miss me on occasion so I operate the above like I am in a
STEALTH (INVISIBLE) I do not trust anyone but me to be responsible for
me.
And yes I am aware that I may miss something.
30 yrs of driving a vehicle with lights and sirens and having drivers pull out infront of me, Yup know its going to happen and I always try to have an out.
No accidents to retirement. Also found out somthing else that provides
training and makes you a better pilot. If your airport has more than one runway always take off and land crosswind. Found out you usually do not have much traffic on those runways. We have the aircraft for it.
 
I rode a motorcycle on the Southern California freeways for years. I didn't ride "defensive", I rode scared, expecting everyone else to do the worst possible thing at the worst possible time. I learned how to survive and I am still here.
I assume pretty much everyone I see will do something that might kill me, whether they mean to or not. I follow this rule whether I'm on the bike, in either type of aircraft I fly, in the car or on foot. NEVER assume the other guy sees you (only exception is the tow plane when I am on tow).

TODR
 
Zaon Traffic detector

An earlier poster to this thread mentioned to keep your transponder on so he could see you on his Zaon I presume. The Zaon does not detect transponders on its own. It detects a transponder that is replying to a radar interogation. If your plane with transponder on is not in radar coverage it will not show up on a Zaon. That is the way I understand the Zaon equipment works. The Zaon manual is at the airport and I am home now but if this is viewed as incorrect information I will get out the manual and double check it.
 
If I were to look up and see a plane landing on the runway I am on, two things would happen. My plane moved off centerline (or off the runway if needbe) to avoid and another radio call to warn him off...in that order. I always assume everyone else is blind as a bat and half as bright, so I'm seldom disappointed. I would be as disappointed in myself for not seeing the traffic coming in as I was for him for not using his radio. There certainly wouldn't be any emotional confrontation over it. It's an uncontrolled airport and radios are not required....not required means not required. I know that as a pilot and I am as responsible as he is.

Nobody is responsible for my safety but me. There is very little that anyone reading this can do that I can't avoid if I'm paying attention...and if I'm not, it's my own fault.
 
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There was a gent at DTS about 15 or so years ago with a long-eze who was notorious for this kind of stuff. Cutting people out in the pattern, landing the wrong way, being unproffesional on the radio about it, etc.

One day he sent a Lear around landing the otherway, and said the exact same thing on the radio (us line guys made a habit to watch his shennanigans). They whipped it around the pattern, landed, and both pilots went over and 'dealt' with him. Not sure who threw the first punch, but I know the two who walked away....

That is *awesome* :)

Some people are just jerks, and they're jerks all the time. They just happen to be flying an airplane sometimes, and being a jerk in ways that could get people killed.

My VERY FIRST landing in an RV, during transition training, as we had dutifully announced our inbound position, downwind, base, and final, as we were approaching the fenceline, some jerk who had been sitting at the hold-short line (and could obviously see us, even if he didn't bother to listen), pulled onto the runway, forcing me to do a go-around. According to the instructor, this guy does that sort of s**t ALL THE TIME, and continues to do so despite he and others having "had a 'talk' with him". I was pretty incensed. I guarantee that if that happened to me repeatedly, I'd be thinking along the lines of the Lear pilots above.
 
I know some older aircraft w/o electrical systems aren't required to have radios (NORDO), but with the low cost of hand-held's I think it's a disservice to yourself and others if you don't have and use one. It's such an improvement to safety and courtesy to be able to hear other's intentions as well as announce your own. Even in when flying my brother's light sport it's a normal practice for everyone.
 
You don't have to have a radio to be safe, unfortunately too many people rely on the radio even though they only understand half of what is said.
Some pilots are so preoccupied with talking on the radio they forget to fly the plane and look for traffic. I think more people misuse the radio then don't use it. How many syllables in "Any traffic in the area please advise" that aren't already implied?

Aviate-Navigate-Communicate!

I know some people should use their radios more, but I think the bigger problem is people not flying proper traffic patterns (I love hearing 10 mile straight in on the radio) and a lack of situational awareness.

Bingo on all accounts. When I was teaching new CFI candidates, I would take them into high traffic uncontrolled airports and task saturate them. Places with multiple students in the pattern, instrument approaches going on, skydiving, banner towing, all simultaneously. Every now and then I would take the plane, have them take their head set off, and have them draw me a traffic pattern with where everyone is at that moment. It usually only took one or two of those before they figured out how to look and listen, while teaching. Point being, that other people's "non-standard" is still your problem.
 
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I do what I want types...

"... an airplane on the roll, but he replied something to the effect ?uncontrolled field, deal with it?.

Not long ago, someone allegedly with a similar attitude wound up killing people.

This accident was caused by a Swiss guy, Ulrich Christen, flying a velocity in Florida in March 2008.

Apparently he left the US as soon as he could afterwards. Not sure if he has shown his face back here again since.

http://planecrashmap.com/plane/fl/N244CU
 
Radio or no radio

Wow
After listening to the posts I was curious as to the actual FAR a person is
violating for not using a radio at an uncontrolled airport.
If a pilot is intentionally causing a saftey hazard by knowingly pulling out on the runway with out first looking down the chute to see if someone is on final and that person continues to act in a way to be that saftey hazard. Or Knowingly cuts into the pattern with reckless disregard for life. Please use the FAA and make a complaint against the pilot for reckless disregard for life.
FAA enforcement is good about giving pilots corrective action and are good about talking to pilots at their home airport about the habits good or bad about that pilot
Do not get in that persons face, give him the business or get phisical with that person--after all in most jurisdictions you will be the law breaker and be charged with harassment, and possibly assault.

If the person made a mistake you may be making a bigger one
If you are charged you may be visited by FAA enforcement and possibly
be investigated, and worse have your pilots license removed for being
an angry unstable person that cannot handle his emotions in the air or on the ground and be just as dangerous as the person you are trying to adjust

Tailwinds Ken
Flying RV-6
Working on a rocket
 
Assure, no.

Augment, yes.

It depends on if you can actually use the radio.

Our CTAF frequencies are limited, with many airplanes using the same frequency. When approaching an uncontrolled airport, monitor the frequency early and listen for traffic, don?t just hit the frequency flip-flop button on the radio immediately followed by the PTT button and ask ?other pilots in the area please advise.? That makes me want to say, ?Try the meatloaf, it?s great!?

When making position reports, please use the aircraft type. The reason of the position reports is to let other planes in the pattern or on the ground know where you are. My eyes aren?t so good that I can read a 12? N-number at two or three miles, even though I have you in sight. Or do I? Are you that Piper or Cessna on downwind? Did I miss a call or is one of those two airplanes on the wrong frequency or are you a third plane on LONG downwind?

While taxiing on the ground, unless you are ?back taxiing? on the runway, no one really cares if you are heading to the pumps, FBO, or a specific runway. (Did you ever notice that at controlled airports they typically use a different frequency for ground operations, there must be a reason for that.) If I?m in the pattern then I should be able to see you taxiing to the end of runway 5. However, I do want to know if you are going to take the active runway. As mentioned above, our frequencies are busy and although you can?t hear all the congestion on the ground, your transmissions are blocking the CTAF frequency for miles around. Again, please use your aircraft type, not just your N-number.

Just my $.02 worth.
 
I know some older aircraft w/o electrical systems aren't required to have radios (NORDO), but with the low cost of hand-held's I think it's a disservice to yourself and others if you don't have and use one...

I used to be one of those guys flying a an older aircraft w/o electrical systems ('41 T-craft) and it isn't as easy as buying a radio.

It requires all new mags, wiring harness, and plugs. On some planes, including the T-craft, modifying the cowling is also required to allow room for the longer plugs. (You can see the cowl bumps added to many older aircraft.)

That still does not solve the issue with RV, Piper, Cessna, etc. pilots tuning in the wrong frequency.

YOU MUST keep your eyes open and head swiveling.
 
...While taxiing on the ground, unless you are ?back taxiing? on the runway, no one really cares if you are heading to the pumps, FBO, or a specific runway...

I'll agree, with one caveat... I'll announce my "taxi to runway X..." As an aid to those inbound wondering what runway to set up for. If the pattern is full, I'll keep my mouth shut, but if its quiet I consider it my "good deed" for the day.

Full agreement about the complete uselessness of an N number for identification in the pattern. As a pilot looking for traffic, I'd much rather know you're a yellow RV or red biplane than "N12345". May not follow the exact wording of the law, but its a rule well worth bending.
 
He did say get a hand held radio. No modifications needed.

Many of the old ignition systems are unshielded since they weren't intended for use with a radio. They generate so much RFI that even a handheld is nearly useless. That is why it is sometimes necessary to install a more modern ignition even if only a handheld will be used.
 
Most salient points have been covered here, so I'll add just a twist to one already mentioned... that old line, "conflicting traffic please advise". This is pretty much a useless thing to say, or so some folks seem to feel.

Please let me suggest a very useful alternative expression. Once you've broadcast your type, call sign, position and intentions, you've said a lot of words and the poor guy on the receiving end has already forgotten your call sign. I've gotten into the habit of ending the transmission with "for conflicts it's XXXX" (my call sign, said slowly and clearly). Since implementing this procedure I've noted a marked increase in the number of aircraft responding, sometimes getting additional position information, sometimes indicating traffic in sight and no conflict.

We need to understand that our pilot population is aging and some don't hear as well as they once did and they don't process information as quickly as they once did. As a result I think some folks just don't respond to radio calls because they're embarassed to ask who it was that just called in joining downwind. Slowing down, enunciating clearly and repeating critical information (like your call sign) seems to help. Leaving out extraneous words also helps. Radio communications really benefit from being clear and concise.
 
Many of the old ignition systems are unshielded since they weren't intended for use with a radio. They generate so much RFI that even a handheld is nearly useless. That is why it is sometimes necessary to install a more modern ignition even if only a handheld will be used.

What Sam said!
 
Wow
After listening to the posts I was curious as to the actual FAR a person is
violating for not using a radio at an uncontrolled airport.
If a pilot is intentionally causing a saftey hazard by knowingly pulling out on the runway with out first looking down the chute to see if someone is on final and that person continues to act in a way to be that saftey hazard. Or Knowingly cuts into the pattern with reckless disregard for life. Please use the FAA and make a complaint against the pilot for reckless disregard for life.
FAA enforcement is good about giving pilots corrective action and are good about talking to pilots at their home airport about the habits good or bad about that pilot
Do not get in that persons face, give him the business or get phisical with that person--after all in most jurisdictions you will be the law breaker and be charged with harassment, and possibly assault.

If the person made a mistake you may be making a bigger one
If you are charged you may be visited by FAA enforcement and possibly
be investigated, and worse have your pilots license removed for being
an angry unstable person that cannot handle his emotions in the air or on the ground and be just as dangerous as the person you are trying to adjust

Tailwinds Ken
Flying RV-6
Working on a rocket

This 99.9%

I can't understand how people can be (insert choice adjective)'s on the radio regardless. I'm like a dog with his head out the window any time I'm flying anything... how can you be in a crabby mood?
 
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