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You're only renting your charts

H

humptybump

Well Known Member
It didn't register to me a major difference between a portable Garmin GPS device and an iPad, iPhone, or Android device ... until now.

Right or wrong, many VFR pilots choose to update their portable aviation GPS once a year. Garmin does not prevent this. Rather, there is a notice each time the device starts which indicates any data that has expired.

Foreflight and Garmin Pilot apps for mobile devices do something a bit different. They stop working. The end.
 
humptybump said:
It didn't register to me a major difference between a portable Garmin GPS device and an iPad, iPhone, or Android device ... until now.

Right or wrong, many VFR pilots choose to update their portable aviation GPS once a year. Garmin does not prevent this. Rather, there is a notice each time the device starts which indicates any data that has expired.

Foreflight and Garmin Pilot apps for mobile devices do something a bit different. They stop working. The end.
Click to expand...

You sure FF stops working? I have not witnessed this. I will see a red box at the corners which states the chart is expired but everything works normally...
 
humptybump said:
Foreflight and Garmin Pilot apps for mobile devices do something a bit different.
Click to expand...

Nope. Foreflight works just fine with expired charts. It does show that they're expired, but they're still there.

Can't say for Garmin as I don't use it.
 
SkyCharts Pro also keeps on ticking with old charts. But inasmuch as they don't currently charge for new ones, might as well download them and stay current.

Dave
 
Garmin Pilot will also function with expired charts. I won't function
with an expired subscription however. I have never tested Foreflite
with a expired subscription. So in a sense, you are renting the charts.
 
I have 2 Garmin highway units. I have noticed with each of them, and they are several years apart, that when they start asking you to update, the battery won't hold a charge for more than 30 minutes. After you go on line and update, the battery is good for about 3 hours.

This happened on two different units. A NUVI 200 and a NUVI 750.
 
I should have been more specific. Both Foreflight and Garmin Pilot will work with expired charts. They will not work with expired accounts (aka you are no longer paying the vendor).

When your subscription has expired, Garmin app will only launch to the subscription page and you can't go further. Foreflight gives you a one week grace period with a dialog box ...

20130311-062434.jpg
 
The OK button just closes the dialog box. On the 17th, I expect the OK button to not be available. I'll know for sure, then.
 
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Hi Dan - I think vfrmap.com has a different purpose from mobile flight planning and inflight navigation solutions such as Foreflight and Garmin Pilot.

It is definitely good to have choices since not everyone needs all the features of some mobile applications..
 
humptybump said:
I should have been more specific. Both Foreflight and Garmin Pilot will work with expired charts. They will not work with expired accounts (aka you are no longer paying the vendor).
Click to expand...
OK, but you paid $1500+ for the Garmin GPS, and $0 for the Foreflight app. You can use FF and the other iPad apps for many years (with their annual subscription) before their cost exceeds that of the Garmin. It's not like the iPad apps are suddenly going to quit working on a Dark and Stormy Night.
 
Buggsy2 said:
OK, but you paid $1500+ for the Garmin GPS, and $0 for the Foreflight app.
Click to expand...

Hi Ralph - you are correct. But don't forget the cost of the iPad. (also the resale vale of the aviation GPS's are pretty good).

My point is to inform users that the two apps I mentioned not only expire but also prevent further use of the data.

The good news is that with all of the options, individuals have choices. It's helpful to have as much information as possible to make informed choices.
 
humptybump said:
I should have been more specific. Both Foreflight and Garmin Pilot will work with expired charts. They will not work with expired accounts (aka you are no longer paying the vendor).

When your subscription has expired, Garmin app will only launch to the subscription page and you can't go further. Foreflight gives you a one week grace period with a dialog box ...

20130311-062434.jpg
Click to expand...

At KOSH two years ago, I asked this exact question to both the Foreflight rep and Hilton at WingX. I said what happens if I'm on a cross country and my subscription expires. Foreflight said tough luck your only renting the charts. Hilton said it would be no different than when my paper charts expired, they still exist in my plane. I went with WingX because I liked his attitude much better. By the way, I'm thrilled with the product.
 
Marvin - thanks for adding to this thread. I've not used WingX so I appreciate you providing the associated information!
 
humptybump said:
I should have been more specific. Both Foreflight and Garmin Pilot will work with expired charts. They will not work with expired accounts (aka you are no longer paying the vendor).

When your subscription has expired, Garmin app will only launch to the subscription page and you can't go further. Foreflight gives you a one week grace period with a dialog box ...

20130311-062434.jpg
Click to expand...

So in reality, you're renting the app, not the charts. The app is subscription based, and as long as your subscription is paid, you can use the app. If you don't pay the annual subscription for the app, you can't use the app including anything you got with the app.

Seems pretty fair and simple to me.
 
AirNavPro is also a one-time-buy for the program. I haven't purchased any US charts myself yet, but I understand from a fellow pilot who is running AirNavPro on his Google Nexus 7 tablet that the charts are not forcibly expired at the end of their cycle... You can still use them.

Personally, as there are no Canadian VFR charts available, i've been using the Open Streetmap data as a basemap (free), with Canadian airspace overlaid on top (also free). I'm using this on both my Google Nexus 4 smartphone, and my iPad3.
 
Both my charts and subscription have expired on my WingX, and the old charts are still there. Update - I checked the Aeronav approach plates, and they are gone. The sectionals are still there, however.
 
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SkyChartsPro....a 1 time $20 purchase that I have been updating for the past 2 years. I can continue to run on expired charts or update to the newest chart when it becomes available. The charts/approach plates/AFD are all cached onto my iPad so they remain there until I delete or update them. There has never been another fee associated although it was designed to be renewed annually for $20.

SkyChartsPro doesn't have all the bells and whistles of say FF but it provides more than you need for VFR flight. It's a no-brainer if you ask me.
 
i don't agree with the theory of either of these, here's a logical argument to consider


are you renting a cheeseburger when you buy it? you are consuming it, then you can no longer use it.....

these are commodities
 
which is why

I got an iFly 720 which has fantastic display fully readable even in direct sunlight and no glare unlike ipads, a much easier to handle size in the airplane, an annual subscription of around $100 I think including vfr, ifr, and even geo synched approach plates, will accept ADSB weather (traffic I'm not sure) and the list goes on.
 
I'm with Tony. $20 a couple years ago for SkyChartsPro and the iPad has essentially paid for itself in paper chart savings. As has been mentioned in other threads, the iFly isn't quite as good when you are trying to check email, take pictures, Skype, surf the web, look at PDFs or watch a movie.
 
And if you're a student and still use paper textbooks, they make excellent book covers. For that matter, they make excellent book covers even if you're not a student but still need a book cover.

Dave
P.S. Guess I'm dating myself - we used paper textbooks when I was in college, and that's what I used to cover them with.
 
I dont mind subscription based maps. i dont want to buy every movie i watch and having a gps nav over a sectional with clearly defined airspace and com frequencies at the touch of a button is pretty awesome. Not to mention a backup AI, weather, calcualted upper air winds and fuel usage. Sure, i can look this up online and spend time flight planning or i can let the ipad do it and print out hard copies for backup. My wingX just expired but still works with the cached sectional. Although in my opinion it has he best 'overall' functionality for in flight nav, flight planning and comparability, it still has the disclaimer that its NOT meant to be used for navigation where as garmin and FF own up to it. That's a real cop out if you ask me.. Like buying a car, but not meant to be used for comuting on highways or carrying people. Air nav pro, also fantastic VFR simplicity, has that disclaimer, but as mentioned previously it doesn't expire at least. FF bought i1000 FS, will interesting to see if they step it up.
 
humptybump said:
Just an update confirming Foreflight indeed ceases to function after expiration ...
Click to expand...

Again, as mentioned above, it's not the charts you're renting or subscribing to. It's the app itself you're paying an annual subscription for.

Charts expire every 28 or 56 days. If your subscription is good for another six months, for example, and your chart expires, the chart will still be there (with a red notice reminding you it might be old data) but will still be there for you to use until your ForeFlight subscription expires.

If you pay $75 or $150 per year to use the ForeFlight app and your year runs out, the app stops working. If you subscribe to cable TV and pre-pay for a year, do you expect the cable company to keep providing programming for you if you don't renew?

You're not "only renting your charts", you're subscribing to a service which happens to include charts.
 
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Whaaaa? psuedo-canadian charts??? :)

Snowflake said:
AirNavPro is also a one-time-buy for the program. I haven't purchased any US charts myself yet, but I understand from a fellow pilot who is running AirNavPro on his Google Nexus 7 tablet that the charts are not forcibly expired at the end of their cycle... You can still use them.

Personally, as there are no Canadian VFR charts available, i've been using the Open Streetmap data as a basemap (free), with Canadian airspace overlaid on top (also free). I'm using this on both my Google Nexus 4 smartphone, and my iPad3.
Click to expand...

Rob, can you elaborate on this for us non-techs? I'm not clear on 'overlaid' to say the least! :)
please fill me in, and we can post in the canada section?
 
craigvince said:
If you pay $75 or $150 per year to use the ForeFlight app and your year runs out, the app stops working. If you subscribe to cable TV and pre-pay for a year, do you expect the cable company to keep providing programming for you if you don't renew?
Click to expand...

It's nice to know how different companies offer different ways of paying. What is a service, a product or a license? Most people expect the app to continue working with the old maps when your "subscription" ends.
 
Bjørnar,

I can understand the difference between "a service" and "a subscription". Yes, when I end my service agreement, the service goes away. But when I see the term "subscription", I think of news papers, magazines, charts etc. With those "subscriptions", when they end you are left with old data.

My point for this thread is to help educate our community on the difference between a chart update for your Aviation GPS and the mobile device services from Garmin and Foreflight.



And in case anyone thinks I am anti Foreflight and Garmin Pilot. I was a Foreflight subscriber for two years and will give Garmin Pilot a try for the up coming year.
 
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Foreflight dosn't hide how it works... So, choose what you want.

...and you can use one FF subscription on 2 iPads, an iPhone, and an iPod -- but not all at once. (WingX I think you can use all at once, if it's on the same Apple account -- ie. you don't have the FF single sign-on restriction.)

Anyway, from their FAQ: http://foreflight.com/support/subscription

Can I still use the app after my subscription expires?
No, you must have a valid subscription to continue using the app.
Click to expand...

So I'm not sure why we needed a progressive demo with screenshots? I think that's why the tone of the thread seemed anti-Foreflight, etc.

Personally, I like both FF and WingX, and I'd prefer them both make enough money to stay solvent. :D
 
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humptybump said:
My point for this thread is to help educate our community on the difference between a chart update for your Aviation GPS and the mobile device services from Garmin and Foreflight.
Click to expand...

I understand that, and it is nice to know how different companies offer different methods of payments, because it is not always obvious how that is done looking only at advertisings and demos. It is nice to know what products are real aviation products and what products are toys. An aviation GPS consists of three different items: The hardware, a license to use/update the software on the hardware, and a subscription for updated maps. The latter is really only a subscription based license to install and use up to date maps.

If the product is only the software and maps, then they can chose to offer subscription based licenses on both, or they can chose other terms of payment for the licenses. Still, what most people think is fair, and also expect is a subscription based license only on up to date maps.

What people don't expect is their maps to simply stop working during a flight for any reason except a fault of some kind. If the product by design is made to stop working during flight due to "acute" license disagreement, then this product is clearly only a toy and not fit for aviation.
 
SvingenB said:
What people don't expect is their maps to simply stop working during a flight for any reason except a fault of some kind. If the product by design is made to stop working during flight due to "acute" license disagreement, then this product is clearly only a toy and not fit for aviation.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what the other apps do when they expire, but ForeFlight gives a 7 day grace period at expiration. If you fall past the 1 year, it will pop-up a warning stating your subscription has expired, but will continue to function for 1 week to give you time to complete your trip. I would imagine, 7 days is enough time for most people to renew or buy some paper charts. :)
 
Another Option

I use Foreflight (think it's great!) but carry expired paper charts as backups. WACs. Figure they'll get me in the ballpark.
 
What kind of data consumption is there if using fore flight on an iPhone? I'm looking at getting into the 21st century and trade in my dumb phone. Just wondering what kind of data plan I may need.

Mark
 
RV Wannabe said:
What kind of data consumption is there if using fore flight on an iPhone? I'm looking at getting into the 21st century and trade in my dumb phone. Just wondering what kind of data plan I may need.

Mark
Click to expand...

You don't need any data plan. Everything can be downloaded on WiFi.
 
Foreflight, Garmin Pilot (and most others) support downloading all the chart data ahead of time and is at your control. As noted, you can do this when you are on WiFi.

You can also flight plan while on WiFi as well - fetching current weather, filing, checking TFR's.

However, odds are you will want to update you plans and fetch current weather when you are about to launch or while you away from WiFi (while at a fuel stop, finishing up that $100 pulled pork sandwich, etc). You might also want to check VAF or post a food shot :)

I have a significant data plan but hardly ever use more than 150-200 MB each month. If you are new to having a smart phone, odds are you will not use much at all - just have a geeky friend help you setup the phone so it does not "live" on your data plan all the time.
 
humptybump said:
However, odds are you will want to update you plans and fetch current weather when you are about to launch or while you away from WiFi (while at a fuel stop, finishing up that $100 pulled pork sandwich, etc). You might also want to check VAF or post a food shot :)
Click to expand...



Oh yes! Odds are high on that :)
 
Just make sure you only fly into airports or patronize FBO's that offer free wireless Internet, and you'll be just fine. It's becoming rare to find an airport that doesn't have an open access point on it these days... Just for that reason.
 
Snowflake said:
It's becoming rare to find an airport that doesn't have an open access point on it these days... Just for that reason.
Click to expand...

Hi Rob - I would say it is highly variable. Very few of the spots I land have free WiFi ... and in some of the places that do, it is not very convenient.

Since [new] iPhone accounts require a data service, the question asked was how big/small. My experience has been it can be pretty small and still be useful.


Of course, 53VG has free WiFi for visitors :)
 
Speaking of charts and paper and such... for the 6+ years that I've been flying my RV I've used the Air Chart System WAC atlas. It's worked pretty well for VFR flying at RV speeds, plus has full US coverage and is always current. The pricing seemed a bit high, something like $129/year, but still cheaper than buying full coverage FAA/NOS stuff. Since my current subscription is about to run out, I crunched the numbers and decided to switch to a Nexus 7 tablet running the Garmin Pilot app. Like it.

But alas, it appears I'm not alone; two weeks ago my last Air Chart update emails shows up and in the email text is a statement saying basically "due to the proliferation of digital charts we will no longer update/maintain our charts". It didn't come right out and say that they're going out of business and the website says nothing about it, but it seems as though they might be all done.
 
humptybump said:
Since [new] iPhone accounts require a data service, the question asked was how big/small. My experience has been it can be pretty small and still be useful.
Click to expand...
iPhones can still be purchased quite easily without data plans. It's not cheap to do so, however...

But there are other options. Used iPhones, for one. Android phones, for another. Both have the same access to great programs for flight planning and inflight mapping.

Personally, I have a 6GB plan for my android phone, i've had this plan for 5 years now and there's talk that they're forcing people off it this year so we'll see how long this lasts. I got it because I wanted my data usage to be "unlimited", or in effect, "unlimited by my usage pattern". I haven't been over 2GB/month, and in general hover just under 1GB/month. But I consider myself to be a heavy user.
 
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