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Eliminating Bendix D2000/3000 Magnetos

walkman

Well Known Member
My (very) detailed write up of my project to eliminate the Bendix 3000 and associated single points of failure in ignition systems is here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12196944/Eliminating D3000.docx

In short this involved the replacement of the D3000 "dual mag" with a regular Bendix mag mounted on a D3000 impulse coupling/gear and an electronic ignition system from EFII/Protek.

Works great so far.

Will update the writeup with pictures and detailed before/after performance data in a week or so.
 
3000

I'm in the process of changing out my Bendix 3000 Dual Mag with the EFII/Protek totally redundant dual Electronic ECU's/pickups/batteries, etc. I chose not to go with the one mag/one electronic conversion.

Robert sure puts out a nice set-up, and with this particular kit, he sends along a dowel thats attached to the mag hole cover plate that plugs the mag pilot shaft bearing hole drilled into the crankcase. (This is hard for you two mag guys to envision but it's necessary for the "D" suffix engines.)

It's been hot here and I've had 3 days of interruption this week so it's going a lot slower than I would like.:(

Will report later.
 
Thank you for the detailed info.
I have the same Bendix magneto and would like to know the weight difference between the 2 setups.
This Dual mag is so heavy....
Thanks
Denis
 
Thank you for the detailed info.
I have the same Bendix magneto and would like to know the weight difference between the 2 setups.
This Dual mag is so heavy....
Thanks
Denis

I'm not in my hangar, but I recall the dual mag weighing around 10.5 lbs and the single mag in the 6 lb range. When you consider the weight of the ecu, sensor, and escpecially the ignition coil pack I doubt you area saving much weight.
 
I'm in the process of changing out my Bendix 3000 Dual Mag with the EFII/Protek totally redundant dual Electronic ECU's/pickups/batteries, etc. I chose not to go with the one mag/one electronic conversion.

Robert sure puts out a nice set-up, and with this particular kit, he sends along a dowel thats attached to the mag hole cover plate that plugs the mag pilot shaft bearing hole drilled into the crankcase. (This is hard for you two mag guys to envision but it's necessary for the "D" suffix engines.)

It's been hot here and I've had 3 days of interruption this week so it's going a lot slower than I would like.:(

Will report later.

Manan, are you working on this in ga, or fl?
 
Florida

Manan, are you working on this in ga, or fl?

I'm in Valkaria, FL. (X59). 7 seven zero fife 1 niner 4999 if you guys have any questions.:)

I haven't weighed any of the components yet but subjectively, I'm guessing my system will weigh about 10 to 12 lbs. more because I'm adding an Odyssey 625 backup battery to assure total redundancy.

I did put the battery aft to help with my already forward cg.
 
Mag Drop

Walkman

Just completed same, EIGH 1 from Protek
and single mag.
0320-H2AD
I'm getting a drop of about 250 rpm
from both to EI only
No miss, idles 750 rpm w/ both
will only idle 400 rpm w/ EI only.
Check all connections.
What is yor Mag Drop

MG
 
Walkman

Just completed same, EIGH 1 from Protek
and single mag.
0320-H2AD
I'm getting a drop of about 250 rpm
from both to EI only
No miss, idles 750 rpm w/ both
will only idle 400 rpm w/ EI only.
Check all connections.
What is yor Mag Drop

MG

I am contemplating doing the single mag and EI conversion on my H2AD as well and would appreciate some details of your experience doing the conversion .:)
Can you give some details of the single mag p/n you used for the conversion. The bendix single mag needs to have right hand rotation to suit the H2AD. Did you find a suitable mag ( they all seem to be left rotation) or did you have a mag shop convert one to right hand rotation? Did you use the original mag drive gear/coupling setup or something modified? Are you using an impulse coupling on the mag to start the engine or are you starting on the EI?
Thanks in advance for any help
Regards
Graham
RV6-H2AD
 
Walkman

Just completed same, EIGH 1 from Protek
and single mag.
0320-H2AD
I'm getting a drop of about 250 rpm
from both to EI only
No miss, idles 750 rpm w/ both
will only idle 400 rpm w/ EI only.
Check all connections.
What is yor Mag Drop

MG

on my flight back from cincinnati yesterday I stopped at 0I8 Cynthiana KY for $5.20 avgas. I noticed a strange drop out. While idling on the ramp, heads down on the gps, all of a sudden my RPMs dropped several hundred, stayed there long enough for me to notice, then came back up. I was unable to reproduce. flight back was all normal and fine.

I rechecked my mag timing this evening, it was set around 27 BTDC. either it changed with breaking the mag in or I was sloppy. No idea if this has anything to do with anything but.....will collect more data.
 
I am contemplating doing the single mag and EI conversion on my H2AD as well and would appreciate some details of your experience doing the conversion .:)
Can you give some details of the single mag p/n you used for the conversion. The bendix single mag needs to have right hand rotation to suit the H2AD. Did you find a suitable mag ( they all seem to be left rotation) or did you have a mag shop convert one to right hand rotation? Did you use the original mag drive gear/coupling setup or something modified? Are you using an impulse coupling on the mag to start the engine or are you starting on the EI?
Thanks in advance for any help
Regards
Graham
RV6-H2AD

Graham

Check the document I linked to in my original post. that should get you started. I think you should be able to find the same mag without the "L" in it. Call Aaron at Select Aircraft in Lancaster TX and tell him I sent you.
 
Mag Drop

I'm refering to the drop when switching to EI only.
This is where I see a 250 rpm drop.
I was wondering what you get.
MG
 
Drop

on my flight back from cincinnati yesterday I stopped at 0I8 Cynthiana KY for $5.20 avgas. I noticed a strange drop out. While idling on the ramp, heads down on the gps, all of a sudden my RPMs dropped several hundred, stayed there long enough for me to notice, then came back up. I was unable to reproduce. flight back was all normal and fine.

I rechecked my mag timing this evening, it was set around 27 BTDC. either it changed with breaking the mag in or I was sloppy. No idea if this has anything to do with anything but.....will collect more data.

Hope you find something quick! Could it have been a slug of water? Still installing mine so I'm keenly interested!!!!:eek:
 
System weight

Hi Mannan,
I weighed some batteries laying around the shop today.
A Concord aircraft battery (RV sized) is 22lbs. Two of the Odyssey PC625s total 26 lbs. Most of our installations end being a swap from one Concord to two of the PC625s.

There is a loss in weight when removing two mags in favor of our dual ignition electronic setup.

The overall system swap out for a dual ignition when the battery situation is as described above ends up at close to the same weight when all is said and done for most installations.

Robert
 
I'm refering to the drop when switching to EI only.
This is where I see a 250 rpm drop.
I was wondering what you get.
MG

I checked it last night. By feel only, no tach when on ei, it can't be dropping more than 100-150 going from both to ei only. That is from 1,800.
 
Mag Drop

I checked with Robert, I was checking at to low an RPM (1500rpm)
@ 1800rpm I'm getting about the same as you.
MG
 
on my flight back from cincinnati yesterday I stopped at 0I8 Cynthiana KY for $5.20 avgas. I noticed a strange drop out. While idling on the ramp, heads down on the gps, all of a sudden my RPMs dropped several hundred, stayed there long enough for me to notice, then came back up. I was unable to reproduce. flight back was all normal and fine.

I rechecked my mag timing this evening, it was set around 27 BTDC. either it changed with breaking the mag in or I was sloppy. No idea if this has anything to do with anything but.....will collect more data.

Well I experienced some momentary drop outs this evening taxiing back to the hangar. Momentary meaning 1-3 seconds of suddenly dropping rpm, stumbling a bit, then coming back up. This was not noticeable on the taxi out or in flight. I turned off the ei and the behavior was unchanged, that is still had a drop out every now and again.

I will start by checking p lead connections.
 
Test Pilot.

Well I experienced some momentary drop outs this evening taxiing back to the hangar. Momentary meaning 1-3 seconds of suddenly dropping rpm, stumbling a bit, then coming back up. This was not noticeable on the taxi out or in flight. I turned off the ei and the behavior was unchanged, that is still had a drop out every now and again.

I will start by checking p lead connections.

Have you found the problem?

I finally got my Dual Electronic EFII System installed and running. (My hangar neighbors were starting to accuse me of making a career out of it!) Short test flight Fri. went well. No numbers though. The engine idles much smoother now. 550rpm and she's ticking over like a Swiss watch.

Today's flight was great. At 8500 ft., WOT about 22.3 in., 2300 rpm, I could get at least .4 gal. per hour less fuel flow before engine started to miss than I could with the mags. I could detect no dicernable difference in rpm switching from either both/left/right and between the main buss and the emergency back up battery either at runup rpm's or cruise rpm's.

I'm not big on numbers and keeping accurate records, so I won't have very quantitative figures to share but saving over two dollars per hour on fuel seems ok to me.

I'll try to get more figures later this week.:)
 
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Great mannan!

I was glad to hear you were done and working well.

I'm half inclined to leave my mag off until its time to run up and the depart just for that low speed idle improvement.

I did have a question about the block off for the drive gear. Other than the mag drive gear itself, is there anything else to remove? Like a pilot bearing etc? If so, how did you remove it? How did the block off work for you?

I'm beginning to think my issue was/is "morning sickness".
 
Block off

I was glad to hear you were done and working well.

I'm half inclined to leave my mag off until its time to run up and the depart just for that low speed idle improvement.

I did have a question about the block off for the drive gear. Other than the mag drive gear itself, is there anything else to remove? Like a pilot bearing etc? If so, how did you remove it? How did the block off work for you?

I'm beginning to think my issue was/is "morning sickness".

I certainly hope it's not the "morning sickness" associated with a sticky valve stem.:eek:

Nothing else to remove. Robert makes a block-off plate that covers the empty hole where the mag used to be. Centered and bolted to that plate he has a machined dowel that fits into the pilot shaft hole in the crankcase. That dowel is the same dia. as the pilot shaft on the mag gear/impulse coupling and stems the oil flow from the hole in the crankcase that oils the pilot shaft. Without this dowel, you would have a fairly large oil hemorrage out that orfice.

Robert recommends Ultra black RTV to seal the bolt that holds the dowel but I refuse to use RTV anywhere near my engine, so I used proseal.

Hope this helps.:)
 
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I'm getting ready to swap the D3000 on my H2AD engine over to a single mag. It appears that the one used on the 360 is the D4LN-3000, while the mag on the H2AD is the D4RN-3000.

Therefore, it would appear that the H2AD engine needs the S4RN-21 or S4RSC-21. Can anyone confirm this? Is anyone able to shed some light on the differences between the S4RN and the S4RSC mags?

I'll probably call a magneto shop to help me out, rather than going at this blindly. If anyone has already blazed this trail for the H2AD, advice would be appreciated.
 
I'm getting ready to swap the D3000 on my H2AD engine over to a single mag. It appears that the one used on the 360 is the D4LN-3000, while the mag on the H2AD is the D4RN-3000.

Therefore, it would appear that the H2AD engine needs the S4RN-21 or S4RSC-21. Can anyone confirm this? Is anyone able to shed some light on the differences between the S4RN and the S4RSC mags?

I'll probably call a magneto shop to help me out, rather than going at this blindly. If anyone has already blazed this trail for the H2AD, advice would be appreciated.

Hello Andy

I made some enquiries with a Mag shop in Iowa a year or so ago about doing exactly what you have in mind to my H2AD. I asked the same questions as you. Turns out he has done a few conversions over the years for H2AD owners. Below is his email response to my questions.


Over the last 20 years I have traded with users of the 0-320h2ad with the D-2000 into an experimental single S-1200 magneto. There are no right hand units configured for that application. The 1200 has many of the same drive end dimensions as the D-2000 and can be installed and make work. It will require a new harness from the mag to plugs which I can make. First I will need to send you the model 1200 to install and the wires length will be determined by you. Then I can make up a new harness for the mag. The magneto's that I have built for the H2AD does not use an impulse just a direct drive. Everyone used the electronic ignition to start the engine. I am not sure that an impulse can be made to work with the mag because of the angles it will need to set at when installed.
Now for what it will cost you to go to one S-1200 and replace the D-2000; what I would send you is one overhauled experimental magneto with drive plate and harness. This is a package price of $1270.00 which includes the cores.
best regards,

Arn-Air
ARNOLD KESSELRING
PH 712-651-2255
[email protected]


He seemed like a nice guy and was happy to answer my questions.

Cheers
Graham
 
Converting one mag

I also have had to deal with this conundrum. I elected to follow the same path Andy did - full dual EFII. The cost of the conversion is either more than or close to (don't remember exactly) the cost of adding a second ECU to the system. While I have not flown my engine yet (Robert says my system should ship Monday), I feel much more confident about this system than a hybrid with one electronic and one converted mag. Just one opinion, and worth everything you paid for it. YMMV!

Sam
 
Here's a pic of the block off plate for the dual mag.

8DE7C088-6306-4063-A7DA-35BF8EAE6A01-13132-000006CDA282C39E_zps7375318c.jpg

1AE1BCCF-2C92-4F03-87E3-FB3418418473-13132-000006CE21FF6CF6_zps34926ffb.jpg


I'll start by saying that I like mags, I almost bought a lightspeed and I almost bought an electroair. G3i, pmag and other EI companies didn't offer options for the dual mag engine. Read the install manuals and talk to the companies and find out which is the best choice for your application. For me and my o-360-A1F6D variant I chose the dual EFII for the crank sensor, block off plate, installation and price. The longer duration of the inductive ignition spark was just a bonus to me.
I was originally going to use my dual mag, until I found out I needed to replace the AD'ed condensors and harness. I decided to use a single EFII and have a single bendix mag converted and several months later after I put in an order for the converted single bendix mag I changed my mind again.
When I thought about maintenance 500 hours from now on the "special" mag, $$ for aviation plugs/wires, and the price of the special mag/harness vs the dual EFII I chose the dual EFII.
I originally wanted a mag because I didn't want to "complicate" things with a redundant electrical system. For me this thinking was only because I really didn't understand electrical systems, electronic ignitions etc (Not that I understand electrical systems, I've just borrowed know how from the smart guys). In the long run the redundant electrical systems (dual batt or alt when building) aren't complicated and allow a basic architecture to make use of the new EFIS's and electronics. I spent 60-80 hours comparing electrical systems/aux alts/backup batteries/ignition systems. Looking back now I think using the single mag on the dual mag accessory case was complicating things.
For me the hard part was making the decision to let go of the mag and use the dual EFII. Easy part so far was installation. I've only ran the engine 3times so far, after I richened the idle screw correctly it runs very smooth and idles well in the low 500 RPMs with a lightwieght Catto. I'm anxious for a first flight and see what kind of LOP performance I can get with the EFII. Using a newer product always has it's risks, but for me the benefits of dual EFII outwieghed the risks. Time will tell and I will try to post more results as I get them.
 
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Mag/Electronic Ign.

I have over a year and just guessing, over 50 hrs. on my EFII dual/redundant electronic ignition system now. I have a fuel injected engine and have done Don Rivera's Airflow Performance spray nozzle flow matching which adds to the ability to lean the engine more before it starts missing. The added spark duration really helps ignite the leaner mixture.

I have nothing but praise for Robert Paisley's system. It has performed flawlessly and drops the fuel flow considerably. I'm burning a gallon, sometimes 1.5 gal. less than before. Starting that fuel injected engine is a piece of cake now.

Adding the system including the aux battery was pretty much a wash weight wise, adding a couple of pounds. That Siamese mag, wires and the aviation RHM-38E plugs were heavy. I like the NGK auto plugs of the electronic system and they cost a LOT less!

I realize everyone has their own opinion and everyone thinks what they have is better than anyone else's, but I believe it would be hard to find a better system than Robert's. He uses the best proven components and I'm sure that time will tell as his ignition spreads further into the aviation world and matures.

I don't think you will go wrong with EFII.
 
Dual ECUs?

I'm curious for those of you who have gone to dual electronic ignition from Robert, did you go with dual ECUs or a single ECU?

Mannan, formation Saturday? Looks like we might be able to put up a 4-ship (finally).
 
I went with the full dual, 2 each of SDU Brain Box-Flywheel Pickups-Manifold Pressure Sensors. It's only another 1 lb or so and makes me feel a whole lot better about redundancy.
 
I went with the full dual, 2 each of SDU Brain Box-Flywheel Pickups-Manifold Pressure Sensors. It's only another 1 lb or so and makes me feel a whole lot better about redundancy.

Are you running Fuel Injection, or just 2 ignition setups? Dual ECU would be my path for dual EI, but only one ECU can run the fuel system.

18 months ago I talked to Robert about it and he mentioned a way to shunt the FI functions to the other ECU in the event of a failure of the primary. Curious as to if/how that works in real life.
 
Just the full dual ignition, I've only glanced at the fuel injection. My airframe was setup for the carb and my carb had a yellow tag so I stuck with that. It's on the back burner of possible future upgrades, fly first then radios and paint.
 
Dual ECU fuel injection setup

For more info on how the Dual ECU version of our fuel injection works, check out the Dual ECU Addendum at the end of the installation manual. It is linked on our Customer Area page.


Basically, both ECUs have their own redundant critical sensors, including a dual crank trigger, dual IAT and dual MAP sensors. One ECU runs the top plugs, one ECU runs the bottom plugs. A panel mounted "ECU select" switch transfers injector control from one ECU to the other. It is a very simple and reliable scheme.

Robert
 
I'm willing to substitute my D-3000 dual-mag with a Single Mag plus an Electronic Ignition System (brand not yet defined).

Does somebody know what's the best replacement to a single 6 cylinder magneto fitting my AEIO-540-L1B5D engine?

Thanks in advance.
 
FYI, I've chosen Robert's EFII EIGN-6-2R Dual ECU, Dual ignition system for 6 cyl Lycoming, also adding the Bus Manager + VP-X.
 
I just bought another ignition for my new -8, and a new fuel pump. Man that pump is a work of art.

Robert has been extremely helpful in answering all my questions and dealing with my constant pestering. :D
 
Reliability

While this is an old thread, I'm curious about the D-3000 mag. I've reviewed Mx instructions on it, it looks rather complicated and problematic, and I would guess expensive to overhaul. However, I find nothing on the site regarding failures of the D-3000. Yes, I understand efficiencies possible with electronic ignition, etc. The single point of failure argument I presume concerns the single drive, but my old radial had a similar arrangement and worked well. So, honestly, is there a safety issue with this magneto? Thanks.
 
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