Sensenich Ground Adjustable Prop

I see that Sensenich have announced a ground adjustable prop for O-320s that is specifically built for RVs and made from carbon. Link here. Can anyone at Osh provide any more details? such as,
- What is the possible pitch range?
- How long does it take to change pitch?
- How much does it weigh?
- When will it be shipping?
- When will Van's be carrying this prop in their accessories catalog with a $900 discount!?

Seems to be that this could be a much better prop than the metal 70CM6S9 series, particularly because it is only $250 more expensive, has no rpm limitation and it can readily turn from a climb to a cruise prop.

Any comments from Osh visitors would be real useful.

Pete

I looked at them at OSH. They are planning on offering it in the fall for about $3700. You have to remove the spinner to adjust it and it will come with several pitch adjustment tools. You can make your own tools pretty simply and there is a wide range of pitches you can achieve.

Sensenich ground adjustable prop.

Hi Pete:

I've been waiting for this to be released for a while now. If you haven't seen it, there is a video showing the prop.


http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid626910413?bclid=97921088001&bctid=275387652001



cheers, terry.

ground adjustable prop

3750 dollars and I don't think that includes the aluminum spacer. I can't remember the weight but it might work on an RV-4 with a steel spacer.

I would love to try it out. The inside half of the hub mounts to the spacer and flange and the blades and the cap bolt to that. I asked that guy about max rpm and he just said it will run at 2700.

CM

Anyone with more information?

Is anyone out there with flight test data on this prop?

For those going the LSA route with the Rotex engine, the prop is available with 3 blades and does not cost $3750, it more like $2000.

A friend just took delivery and it is a beauty.

Vans has them

I asked about these the other day while on the phone with Vans and they do have them with a discount. I was told $2850 for the composite ground adjustable for the 0-320 and $2900 for the fixed pitch aluminum. I think the only reason not to use the composite may be longevity but I dont know anybody who has had one for all that long so who really knows. It would be really great if sombody would do some performance trials with the two and post them. I have a good friend who changed out his fixed pitch wood prop to one of these and got a huge performance boost.....gained a bunch of speed with no rate of climb loss. Problem is he was flying a cubcrafters cub with a continental 0-200 so no chance the numbers will translate. He is convinced that his speed gains are due to propeller efficiency, not pitch change. In any case it looks pretty groovy...
Cheers.
Evan

evmeg said:

I asked about these the other day while on the phone with Vans and they do have them with a discount. I was told $2850 for the composite ground adjustable for the 0-320 and $2900 for the fixed pitch aluminum. I think the only reason not to use the composite may be longevity but I dont know anybody who has had one for all that long so who really knows. It would be really great if sombody would do some performance trials with the two and post them. I have a good friend who changed out his fixed pitch wood prop to one of these and got a huge performance boost.....gained a bunch of speed with no rate of climb loss. Problem is he was flying a cubcrafters cub with a continental 0-200 so no chance the numbers will translate. He is convinced that his speed gains are due to propeller efficiency, not pitch change. In any case it looks pretty groovy...
Cheers.
Evan

Click to expand...

Evan,

Who did you speak with? I emailed the same question just today and was told that the only Sensenich props they sell are what's on the order form. All metal.

To be honest I dont remeber who it was.....been a while. I just called up the order desk and asked if/when they would be available and what the discount might be. You might have to make a phone call.
Evan

I called Sensenich today, not even selling them yet. They have one on a RV-6 somewhere doing tests and shipped one to Vans for more testing. Was told to call back in a "few weeks".

In the video the Sensenich rep says that the lighter prop helps with the C-of-G. I'd say Sensenich isn't familiar enough with their target market... An O-320 equipped RV-6 needs the weight of the metal prop to help bring the CG forward. Maybe the spacer they sell with the ground adjustable one should be steel, not aluminum. Either that, or I would need to move my battery forward of the firewall.

TOO NEW!!!!!!!!!

GEM930 said:

I called Sensenich today, not even selling them yet. They have one on a RV-6 somewhere doing tests and shipped one to Vans for more testing. Was told to call back in a "few weeks".

Click to expand...

This is exactly the same answers I got when I called Van's and then called Sensenich. I was told "off the record" that a major concern was longevity and the erosion factor is a problem. If that is the case I don't want to keep buying expensive throw away propellers. I think I will wait for some problem sort out and track records before I bite the bullet again.

Called again today.... "about" two months out!
I'm pretty sure that's what they told me two months ago....

The RV-12 uses a Sensenich ground adjustable prop. Take a look at the fixture to set the blade pitch using a digital level designed by John Bender in the RV-12 forum. It works rather well and is much better than any plastic prop protractor. Simple to fabricate.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=64568&highlight=digital+level

Great idea, but I gotta wait to get the propeller.... 0-320 propellers are still not avaliable!!!

72"?

Isn't 72" a little big for an O320-specific prop?

Just curious.

M

Any pireps on this prop yet?

Any Pireps yet?

Hi gang, any Pireps yet on the prop?

Prop me up...

Guys,

A friend of mine at Van's is currently testing one of these props on his 0-320 powered RV4. I have seen the results and they are impressive, significantly outperforming his previous "woodie".

The Sensy carbon props are made nearby here in Central FL, the metal props in PA. The same name but different products and procedures. The composite prop blades have been on Air-boats down here for almost 5 years. In testing multiple blades and shape design, local air boaters have put them to the test. IO-540's with huge 5 blade scimitars taking huge loads and use punishment in harsh environments is a great test ground for props. I have only heard glowing remarks from the "bubbas".

They have been wisely conservative in testing before releasing but trust me, they are very strong and well made. From what my friend tells me, they will be worth the wait...
V/R
Smokey

For me however, composite props are spelled: Catto...

any pireps?

Bumping this thread. Anyone have one on their RV? I'm considering this for my -9A.

Is it really ready? Finally? Another 2 months?

Here's an article.

Would love to know if Van's will sell this with a discount.

I just saw the article on AOPA. I saw the blades at the LSA Expo in Sebring. They look really nice. Now we need to see the performance. We've been working on some propeller testing for Sensenich, so they are letting us get an early production set for our -9A to compare with a Catto. Both are 2 blades. The Catto will be 68x70, and the Sensenich 72", of course. We have a 150HP O-320 for our test bed.

Smokey, come up one day to help with the testing. We should be ready to fly and have both props in hand by late Feb.

Jesse said:

Smokey, come up one day to help with the testing. We should be ready to fly and have both props in hand by late Feb.

Click to expand...

Hi Jess!
I am on it, looking forward to the "rumble". KK has been getting some good numbers on his RV4 with the "Beta Sensy GA", it should be a great comparison. I'm curious too

Hey, I might stop by this Monday...
See ya!

V/R
Smokey

can't wait

Looking foward to getting my hands on one of these. The rumors I have heard is 5+ knots increase in cruise, and improved climb performance. Plus, the engine can run at full RPM and not be restricted by the metal prop. Just in time. I am trying to be flying by late spring.

new prop option

Looking forward to hearing the official results on this prop. It looks promising!

Sensenich Ground Adjustable Propeller

I saw the recent announcement that Sensenich is coming out with a new composite prop for RVs with 0320s at a price of $3,500 and went to their website for more information. The website listed a composite ground adjustable propeller for 0320s for $3,750, which apparently has been listed since 2010. I found that confusing, so I emailed them for clarification as to whether this recently announced prop was the same or a different prop, the correct pricing, and any info re the spinner or other associated equipment they were apparently coming out with.

Charley at Sensenich in Plant City just replied as follows: (a) "It is the same propeller. It is just now coming entering production", and (b) "The spinner manufacturer is working on the tooling now. The price of this 13? carbon spinner will be about $625.00." He didn't respond re the fact that the announcement says the price is $3,500, whereas the website is showing $3,750 (at least it was when I emailed them a few days ago), but it seems obvious the newly announced price of $3,500 must be the one. I'm assuming you don't need to order their spinner unless you want it.

I too will be looking forward to hearing the results of the side by side comparisons between the Catto and the new Sensenich. However, I note that the Catto Jesse said he will be using in the comparison will be a 68x70. I called Craig Catto about a year ago regarding a possible new prop for my RV-4 and said I was most interested in getting top end speed. I told him I used to have (before it got nicked) a Warnke (74x74 I believe, but I could be mistaken) that really hauled *** and hope to duplicate the performance. Craig said he has put many props on RV-4s, and the prop he found that gives @200mph at @2800rpm is his 70x71 model. Obviously, everyone's speed will vary depending on the usual variables, but I understood him to mean that if you're most interested in top end speed, that's the one to order from him for the 0320.

Craig said he has a totally different way of measuring pitch than Warnke had, so the fact that I had a really fast Warnke at a particular pitch doesn't translate at all for purposes of ordering a prop from him.

Anyway, the point is, the 68x70 doesn't sound like Craig's fastest prop for the 0320. Do you guys know whether the 68x70 Catto is regarded as a climb prop, or something in between a cruise and climb prop? Whatever, the test results should be interesting. In my opinion, that Sensenich would have to be pretty darn good to justify the price difference and for that reason alone I'm probably sold on the Catto already.

Nevertheless, after reading the posts from the guys with constant speed props that are leaking oil/grease and having to be shipped for expensive overhauls, the ground adjustable prop in comparison has a lot of appeal.

precession said:

Nevertheless, after reading the posts from the guys with constant speed props that are leaking oil/grease and having to be shipped for expensive overhauls, the ground adjustable prop in comparison has a lot of appeal.

Click to expand...

I've always been a constant speed user, when available. With a starting elevation of 4600' msl, I see no advantage for an adjustable prop. It just isn't the same. I want a finer pitch to develop as much takeoff power as possible, and the coarser pitch for cruise. It needs to be adjusted in flight. Otherwise, it's still a compromise of changing pitches on the ground to suit low elevations & high elevations. The only advantage I see, is not having to send it back for pitch adjustments.

L.Adamson

L.Adamson said:

I've always been a constant speed user, when available. With a starting elevation of 4600' msl, I see no advantage for an adjustable prop. It just isn't the same. I want a finer pitch to develop as much takeoff power as possible, and the coarser pitch for cruise. It needs to be adjusted in flight. Otherwise, it's still a compromise of changing pitches on the ground to suit low elevations & high elevations. The only advantage I see, is not having to send it back for pitch adjustments.

L.Adamson

Click to expand...

I think we all understand your elevation handicap and your need for a C/S prop. But 90% of the flying population doesn't live at 4600 msl. And may not have the need for an expensive, heavy, complicated prop to get the performance that they need from their RV's......................

gasman said:

I think we all understand your elevation handicap and your need for a C/S prop. But 90% of the flying population doesn't live at 4600 msl. And may not have the need for an expensive, heavy, complicated prop to get the performance that they need from their RV's......................

Click to expand...

I prefer it at lower elevations too. As to performance..........unless you have a fixed pitch prop that is pitched for climb, which will suck for cruise, then you'll always prefer that added sense of push behind the seat with a C/S. Remember..............fixed pitch props are always a compromise between climb & cruise. That's why you see so many customers sending their props back for a re-pitch. We don't do that with constant speeds, and perhaps that's the advantage of a ground adjustable.

No weapon too short...for a brave man

L.Adamson said:

We don't do that with constant speeds, and perhaps that's the advantage of a ground adjustable.

Click to expand...

No, but you do have hub AD's (if you care), inspections, RPM restrictions, maintenance and $$$ overhauls. You also glide like a brick with a loss of oil pressure. I know, I've owned three. For many builders (me included) the higher cost and weight of CS is simply, prohibitive.
A ground adjustable pitch, light composite prop for RV's (or Thorps or Tailwinds etc...) from Sensenich is a home run IMHO. Living here in Sensenich's test area, the hub and blade design was extensively tested on Lycoming powered Airboats for the past 8 years in some of the most challenging environments out there, water and sand. Airboaters told me stories of tree limb trimmings, water strikes, debris dropped by passengers sucked through the prop (ice chests, fishing poles) with no damage.

Having owned both FP and CS, I still prefer a light nose, light weight airplane. My RV's have been exposed to every possible challenge including lots of form flying, 1V1's, Sport Aerobatics and numerous visits to the USFS strips in the Idaho and MT backcountry and gross weight takeoffs from Leadville. My 150HP RV4 with a "tree-derived" propeller held it's own and excelled in every arena. Just like the Van's brochure claimed...

Flown properly a well matched FP propeller mated to a very light airframe can easily match or exceed the capabilities of any CS out there for less weight and cost. Being able to adjust the pitch for specialized flying (aerobatics, very short strips or racing) is even better. If it's half as good as my Catto prop, it will be a winner.

V/R
Smokey

Also looking forward to see results. I have an O-320 150hp E3D on my 9A and am running a 68-74 Ed Sterba which is doing a pretty good job.

Careful Smokey. Don't get Larry riled up.
He might tell us how he really feels.

smokyray said:

........ Living here in Sensenich's test area, the hub and blade design was extensively tested on Lycoming powered Airboats for the past 8 years in some of the most challenging environments out there, water and sand. Airboaters told me stories of tree limb trimmings, water strikes, debris dropped by passengers sucked through the prop (ice chests, fishing poles) with no damage. ......

V/R
Smokey

Click to expand...

All good points, and about the only way I'd consider one, is the airboat testing.
...but do we really have to swallow the price? The big paddle carbon fibre airboat props are about $1750, and the slim aircraft one is ......wait for it.....almost exactly DOUBLE that !
Yikes! I feel violated....again....
( still not used to it!)

http://www.sensenich.com/products/item/29

Jesse said:

The Catto will be 68x70, and the Sensenich 72", of course. We have a 150HP O-320 for our test bed.

Click to expand...

Interesting that the Catto is a 68x70. I am flying with a Catto 2-blade on a 150HP O320 but my prop is 70x72. I'll be interested on what numbers you see for both props.

I just got the Catto and it turns out to be a 70x70. Very nice looking Prop, especially with the nickel leading edge. The engine comes tomorrow, so we should be running soon. Probably not flying until late March, but we'll see.

I agree with smokey

Has anybody put one (ground adjustable) on a -4 yet? I have been watching this prop since they started talking publicly about it. What kind of spacer have they come out with for it? I like the idea of a pitch for all around fun flying ( formation, acro, etc) and one for the long high altitude cruise mission, makes the prop very attractive to me.

Chris M.

Prop arrives tomorrow!

UPS tracking showes that a new Sensenich ground adjustable prop will arrive tomorrow!

What sold me on this prop was the manufacturing methods of the molded prepreg composites with integral co-cured carbon fiber prop, a more advanced method than other composite processes. The prepregs have higher glass transition temperatures than wet layup materials giving superior strength in hot and humid conditions.

I can post pictures if there is interest. Sensenich has not shown much about their product on the internet but they have been responsive to my phone calls and answered al my questions.

Brice,
I am getting ready to order a prop. I am very interested in how your new one works. i would love photos and first hand experience. Thanks

Pictures of prop

I am being picture challenged tonight for some reason. Hopefully at least these links will work.

The prop arrived a few days ago and I am quite impressed with the quality, the hub design, and the finish on both hub and blades. All I got so far are some cell phone pictures so far. I am trying to be flying by early summer so it will be a few months before any preliminary results can be presented.

indexing???

Brice, how does the angle indexing work? The Sensenich site shows 3 different types, and it wasn't clear to me which it was.

....I'm still wondering about the cost...sure looks like a $1700 airboat prop to me!!!

Brice,

I would like to know the range of pitches available. I've called and emailed Sensenich and have never gotten that question answered. I think I will need to be somewhere in the 75" to 80" range.

Jim

I'm also very interested in this prop. I was only able to see 2 of the 3 photos. I'm wondering about the spinner and spacer and what they look like.

Did you order it through Van's?

Thanks!

I was at Sun-N-Fun the last couple of days and one of the things I was looking at is propellers. Since Sensenich is available through Van's it gets you a $1000 discount with an engine which I was also shopping for. While shopping props I happened to stop at the Whirlwind booth not really having an interest in C/S. He mentioned that their sister company sells the Ground adjustable composite.

http://www.whirlwindpropellers.com/ga/product_lycoming.html

This is the old Whirlwind company that goes by Whirlwind Propoellers and not Whirlwind Aviation. This prop looked just like the Sensenich but if he quoted me correctly it was much cheaper than the sensenich. It might be something for you to check out.

I opted for the three blade Catto since Van's didn't offer their regular SNF discount I bought the engine and prop somewhere else.

More info

I have been working long hours on a work project and have not been able to get back to this. I will attempt to answer the questions.

The indexing is done with each blade individually. I received three pins marked 2 through 7. Each end is the next increment up. The diameters of the pin are slightly different. With the blade in the hub, and the pin inserted into the hole in the hub, the blade is rotated until the blade pin contacts the pitch pin. That side of the hub is then snugged down, the pin removed, and the steps repeated on the other side. The fit of the blade in the hub is very precise, so much so that after just placing the blade in the hub, it resists a little when trying to remove it. Composites are not very forgiving with loose fits, and I am impressed with the precision of the fit.

Of course it is also possible to use a propeller protractor to set blade pitch.

The documentation oddly does not call out the pitch range. It does recommend to start with pitch pin #4.

I will try and get more photos out of the spinner and spacer. Any tips on how to get picasaweb photos to show? I used the and it still did not show. The spinner is well made, and mostly carbon fiber with fiberglass as a galvanic isolation ply. It comes fully assembled with hardware and openings cut for the prop. Finish is ready to paint in a flat white primer, with no pin holes to be seen anywhere. The aft spinner plate is attached with what look like AN525 round head washer head screws.

Sensenich had a -4 that they tested the propeller on. When I called them just before shipping, they had just test flown the pitch 4 setting to finalize that configuration and were ready to start drilling the pitch pins. So they should have more information on the performance of the -4 if you call them.

As far as just being more expensive air boat props, I would expect that to some degree because the increased levels of engineering, testing, tolerances, quality standards, and inspection typical of aircraft grade hardware. The fact that they are building these air boat props at significantly high quantities speaks to the maturity of the process being used.

What is the construction of the Whirlwind propellers? Their props have electroplated nickle leading edges, and the Sensenich blades used a co-cured metal insert (guessing stainless steel). I must admit to liking the Sensenich prop shape more than the others.

Ultimately my decision to buy this prop is more based on the experience of the company and its reputation, what I understand about the construction method and materials, and some rumors of improved performance in both climb and cruise. In the absence of any published performance results, this was more of an experiment than a comprehensive trade of all alternatives. Lastly, with 25 yrs developing advanced composites, I needed a composite part on plane that was a little more advanced in form and function than the rest of the composites on the plane.

Photos not on picasaweb

OK, I moved everything over to imageshack.com and the links now work. These are cell phone camera pictures so they are not the best.


Tips and leading edge co-cured metal.


Prop, hub halves, and spacer


Hub with blades


Overall prop configuration


Closeup of blade, half a hub, and pitch pin


Set of pitch pins included with prop


Carbon fiber spinner


Spinner back plate

Any Pireps yet?

Just received my new Sensenich 2G0M7-C72RG ground adjustable prop. It only took a week from placement of order (through Van's) to arrival. So basically no wait since it was shipped from Fla to California. This will be replacing the standard Sensenich metal prop on my 9A. I plan on taking some repeatable performance data with the metal prop before mounting the new prop. Reason for the change? I am tired of having to always be watching for the 2600 RPM red line on the metal prop.
Is anyone flying with the new prop yet (on any RV) and if so would you care to share your thoughts, impressions or performance info????

By the way at some point in the near future I will probably have a prop, spinner and spacer for sale at reasonable price (hint-hint)

Bill

sensenich vs whirlwind

Yes, these props look identical! to me....except the sens has pitch indexing.

what's up with that? anyone have actual pricing on the whirlwind? I couldn't find it anywhere on the various sites, you have to ask for a quote, and I didn't want to waste their time.

would like to see if the whirlwind is $1700, not unlike the Sens airboat props...rather than the $2800 for the aircraft one.

How do you guys deal with the new W&B, with even less weight on the nose, I'd start to be concerned with my aft limit!

Carbon Fiber to Aluminum corrosion?

Any potential galvanic corrosion issues with that carbon fiber spinner bulkhead in contact with the aluminum prop hub or an aluminum prop spacer?

I remember a special airworthlessness information bulletin (SAIB) being issued several years ago on aftermarket carbon fiber spinner bulkheads for Cherokees that were seen corroding the back of the propellers.

Bump!

How 'bout it? Anyone flying it yet?

There is an RV-4 flown by Dave Hirshman that has one. It was at our clininc this weekend.