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Question on learning aerobatics

flyenforfun

Well Known Member
I have a question on learning aerobatics so that I will be prepared to do it in my RV-8. Our plane is still a few months away from even getting in the air, I'm just daydreaming.

I was wondering what aircraft would be best to get aerobatics training in that would best prepare me for acro in the RV-8? I have access to an Extra, but its constant speed, our RV is fixed pitch.

How will I get used to the light stick forces that result from 2 up aerobatics other than practicing two up in an RV-8?

How will I fair having a fixed pitch prop? Will I always pull to idle on the down line? I know the RV will gain speed fast, but is acro definitely doable if done correctly?

Yes I know i need training which will most likely answer all these questions, but I am daydreaming at work and wanted to have a prelim discussion. Thanks guys.
 
Definitely.

Matt, you'll find that you really won't have to be pulling power back with your FP prop, if you do the maneuvers correctly...in other words, if you start a loop at 180 MPH, around 100 over the top, if it's a round loop, the 3 G exit should yield 180 MPH again and the same starting altitude, or close anyway.

The 8's controls are light and quick, probably not the fast roll rate of the Extra but fast nevertheless. I think the Extra is a great way to learn the maneuvers that can be duplicated in the -8.

Go for it,


You can do 4 point rolls with the RV's and their quick, crisp controls.

Best,
 
Matt, you'll find that you really won't have to be pulling power back with your FP prop, if you do the maneuvers correctly...in other words, if you start a loop at 180 MPH, around 100 over the top, if it's a round loop, the 3 G exit should yield 180 MPH again and the same starting altitude, or close anyway.

The 8's controls are light and quick, probably not the fast roll rate of the Extra but fast nevertheless. I think the Extra is a great way to learn the maneuvers that can be duplicated in the -8.

Go for it,


You can do 4 point rolls with the RV's and their quick, crisp controls.

Best,

Two days ago I had the most incredible aerobatic session of my life in that extra. It wasn't a training session, I was along for the ride for the most part, but I'm sure this guy would be willing to teach me some things if I split the cost of fuel. At full throttle his extra burns 30 gallons an hour!

Anywho, what is the biggest difference between the fixed pitch i have and his constant speed. Constant speed you set the rpm and forget it?

At cruise power in my rv, i can pull into a loop and on the down line I wont over speed and over rev the engine (assuming the loop is executed properly?)
 
Aerobatics

I think a Citabria/Decathalon would be better. These have slower roll rates than your -8 will, lower speeds, heavier control forces and may well have a fixed pitch prop to prepare you for controlling RPM. Additionally they have ultimate structural strength closer to that of the RV. I know all are rated for +6 and -3 G's to satisfy the FAA requirements (except the Citabria), but the Extra has higher ultimate load strength. It also rolls faster than the RV. Pierre's correct that a loop can be done at full throttle all the way around if you manage G load and speed correctly, but this may not initially be easy, especially with a climb prop. How will your prop be pitched? Going from a Citabria to the RV-8 will delight you, in the faster roll, lighter controls and better climb. Going from the Extra to the RV with it's slower roll rate, heavier controls and generally lesser aerobatic performance may be disappointing. The Extra doesn't help you to manage the fixed pitch prop and rpm as you must with Citabria. A careful preparation for acro, by reading appropriate books, is absolutely necessary in my view. The most helpful to me many years ago was "Aerobatics" by Neil Williams and it's still a tremendously useful reference after years of aerobatics. Now, about what plane to fly first....... Can you get some F-16 time?
 
I think a Citabria/Decathalon would be better. These have slower roll rates than your -8 will, lower speeds, heavier control forces and may well have a fixed pitch prop to prepare you for controlling RPM. Additionally they have ultimate structural strength closer to that of the RV. I know all are rated for +6 and -3 G's to satisfy the FAA requirements (except the Citabria), but the Extra has higher ultimate load strength. It also rolls faster than the RV. Pierre's correct that a loop can be done at full throttle all the way around if you manage G load and speed correctly, but this may not initially be easy, especially with a climb prop. How will your prop be pitched? Going from a Citabria to the RV-8 will delight you, in the faster roll, lighter controls and better climb. Going from the Extra to the RV with it's slower roll rate, heavier controls and generally lesser aerobatic performance may be disappointing. The Extra doesn't help you to manage the fixed pitch prop and rpm as you must with Citabria. A careful preparation for acro, by reading appropriate books, is absolutely necessary in my view. The most helpful to me many years ago was "Aerobatics" by Neil Williams and it's still a tremendously useful reference after years of aerobatics. Now, about what plane to fly first....... Can you get some F-16 time?

My prop is the Sensenich 72FM8S9-1 (85) ordered through Vans. I've flown a citabria, they are a real dog compared to an RV.

I wish i could get F-16 time. My cousin got a ride while in Alaska for a training exercise. He is in the Air Guard and works with the Jersey Devils out of NJ. He said you can't even imagine what it is like.
 
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The Extra is perfect for learning aeros in the RV. It flies more like my -4 than any other aircraft I have flown. You can limit the roll rates and pull back the throttle to simulate the RV-8 with little effort.

It's **** near impossible to break or overspeed an Extra and because the sight picture and handling are close to the RV it's a ideal trainer. Plus, unlike the Citabria and clones but much like the RV, you don't have to wait 5 minutes between each maneuver to climb back to altitude. :)
 
So how vast is the difference in stick force during 2 up aero in an -8 vs. solo? How do you keep from pulling too many G's the first time you try?
 
If you've never done acros then 3G will feel like the airplane is about to rip apart the first time. It's tough for most to pull the required G's especially on the downline it seems.

You'd probably start to not see so well at 5G and then 6G will feel unattainable. I have to purposely try for 4G pulls.

The Extra has very light stick forces making it easy to pull 6+G so again, it makes it easy to train in.

Train in something you can't break so you can survive a screw-up. Screw-up as often as you can when training so recovery is natural. Spins and dives are the results of screw-ups. Master those then you will be safe in your RV.



So how vast is the difference in stick force during 2 up aero in an -8 vs. solo? How do you keep from pulling too many G's the first time you try?
 
just forget the outside loop in the RV..I'm thinking in THEORY it should be possible with a CS prop..But I wouldn't do it...:)

Frank
 
Aerobatics

I concur with the above post. Part of aerobatic training is recovery.

Recovery ability is what will keep you safe in your -8 as you practice your aerobatics for precision.
 
IMO, a Super Decathlon more closely resembles the handling characteristics of an RV-8 than an Extra. However, you should probably get time in whatever is available. Any aerobatic experience is good experience. There are some sublteties, especially in rudder use, that generally make the Decathlon a better trainer, but the bottom line is that each aircraft type will require its own touch to fly well, so no airplane is a perfect crossover for another type. Management of a fixed pitch prop is no big deal. Overspeeding the engine a little is not a problem either. Flame suit on, but acro guys have been turning their stock Lycomings even past 3000 RPM (for brief periods during a figure) for decades with no ill effects.

So decide what RPM redline you're comfortable with, and apply full power. I'm not recommending that you exceed 2700 RPM, but just stating my opinion that it's not that critical if you go a little over. Note at what airspeed you reach your RPM redline. Remember that airspeed. Then you can fly acro at full power and only reduce power when you reach that airspeed to prevent turning more RPM than you're comfortable with. Of course, in an RV, you should be much more concerned with airspeed management than RPM management. You'll reach flutter-producing airspeeds long before you reach a damaging RPM. So focus on the important stuff.

The biggest thing to remember doing acro in an RV is don't be afraid to PULL. Folks get into trouble when they are tentative pulling, in an effort to keep the G-load low, but they're really just letting speed build too much. Those low-aspect ratio wings really produce a lot of drag when loaded, so G's will keep your speed down. Remember, these airplanes are designed to pull 6G's (under aerobatic gross) as much as you want without causing the structure to be modified by stress. There's no NEED to pull this much, but it's there if you need it. No need to baby the airplane. Some folks fly them like they're made of glass. Good luck and have fun.
 
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If you've never done acros then 3G will feel like the airplane is about to rip apart the first time. It's tough for most to pull the required G's especially on the downline it seems.

You'd probably start to not see so well at 5G and then 6G will feel unattainable. I have to purposely try for 4G pulls.

The Extra has very light stick forces making it easy to pull 6+G so again, it makes it easy to train in.

Train in something you can't break so you can survive a screw-up. Screw-up as often as you can when training so recovery is natural. Spins and dives are the results of screw-ups. Master those then you will be safe in your RV.

I pulled 7 G's in the extra the other day, loved it. No problems. Greatest feeling in the world. Thanks for the tips.
 
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IMO, a Super Decathlon more closely resembles the handling characteristics of an RV-8 than an Extra. However, you should probably get time in whatever is available. Any aerobatic experience is good experience. There are some sublteties, especially in rudder use, that generally make the Decathlon a better trainer, but the bottom line is that each aircraft type will require its own touch to fly well, so no airplane is a perfect crossover for another type. Management of a fixed pitch prop is no big deal. Overspeeding the engine a little is not a problem either. Flame suit on, but acro guys have been turning their stock Lycomings even past 3000 RPM (for brief periods during a figure) for decades with no ill effects.

So decide what RPM redline you're comfortable with, and apply full power. I'm not recommending that you exceed 2700 RPM, but just stating my opinion that it's not that critical if you go a little over. Note at what airspeed you reach your RPM redline. Remember that airspeed. Then you can fly acro at full power and only reduce power when you reach that airspeed to prevent turning more RPM than you're comfortable with. Of course, in an RV, you should be much more concerned with airspeed management than RPM management. You'll reach flutter-producing airspeeds long before you reach a damaging RPM. So focus on the important stuff.

The biggest thing to remember doing acro in an RV is don't be afraid to PULL. Folks get into trouble when they are tentative pulling, in an effort to keep the G-load low, but they're really just letting speed build too much. Those low-aspect ratio wings really produce a lot of drag when loaded, so G's will keep your speed down. Remember, these airplanes are designed to pull 6G's (under aerobatic gross) as much as you want without causing the structure to be modified by stress. There's no NEED to pull this much, but it's there if you need it. No need to baby the airplane. Some folks fly them like they're made of glass. Good luck and have fun.

EXCELLENT advice, thank you. Thanks everyone, good advice all around. But like I said, this is all part of my lunchtime daydreaming at work. I still need to finish the plane (should be flying before June), complete flight testing, then get some official acro training. Can't wait.
 
And if you're going to buy an aerobatic book, I would strongly recommend Alan Cassidy's "Better Aerobatics". IMO, it's by far the best book out there in or out of print (it's in print). Really an amazing effort and worth every penny. It's helped a lot more than any of the others. I've read most of the others by Neil Williams, Eric Muller, Bill Thomas, Szurovy/Goulian, etc. and this one has the most detailed and in-depth descriptions of the maneuvers as well as general flight dynamics. It's geared toward precision aerobatics, but that doesn't mean you have to be into competition to benefit from it.

The Williams, Muller, and Thomas books are great in their own way and each have a very different style, but if you're looking to gain the most understanding of the figures, the dynamics involved, and exactly how they should be flown, Cassidy's book will do this better than any of the others. If you're interested in a historical perspective on aerobatics, Neil Williams' book is interesting, but it's rather long-winded and fairly short on actual technique. Bill Thomas' books are the easiest and most straightforward to read...completely no nonsense. Just not as comprehensive and with less detail than Cassidy's book. Eric Muller's book is good. The Szurovy/Goulian books are pretty lite IMO.
 
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Would surely like to find out what it's really like (F-16)! Must admit there've been great points favoring the extra and it is true that the Citabria's a dog. Van points out that the pilot has to take care to avoid over stressing RV's due to their high speeds, relatively low Va and light controls, so good training is key early on. I've only flown acro from the back seat in the -8 (mine's still ground bound) but it flies beautifully. You are going t love it. Have fun!
 
And if you're going to buy an aerobatic book, I would strongly recommend Alan Cassidy's "Better Aerobatics"...

Book? What's a "book"? :D

Seriously, with everything -- and I mean everything -- on video these days, are there any good aerobatic instruction lessons on video these days? It would seem a perfect medium for not only reading (hearing) how a maneuver is performed, but also seeing it done. Next best thing to being there.

I know that YouTube has a bunch of RV aerobatic videos, but none that are very instructive to my knowledge.
 
-8A Acro

This post has nothing to do with acro trainers prior to your RV, but a lot to do with -8A acro procedures and capabilities. I have a 180 HP Aerosport IO-360 with a Hartzell FCP prop. During Phase 1 I explored the +5+ g part of the envelope, but found I could do almost anything I wanted at 2 1/2 - 3g. Full power, full rpm and forget it.

You might consider a second set of objectives during acro training in addition to being able to ace the maneuvers. That is careful exploration of the "what happens when I screw it up" part of the envelope - data points at slower airspeeds or just above or at stall speeds over the top, and high speed data points near Vne on recovery. Learn to recognize those fight regimes by sound / feel and be prepared to go to Plan B - either to continue or revert to unusual attitude recovery.

I became very comfortable with my plane's acro capabilities before moving on to spins. I don't regularly spin it, but did so to explore the flight characteristics at spin onset. Turns out by some kind of blind butt luck, my -8A is rock solid - gives a real hard steady break at stall, must be cross-controlled into the spin, and instantly recovers when controls are relaxed.

As probably every RV owner has asked - Where did this magic carpet airplane come from?
 
Heck, RVs have a high enough Vne that they could do an outside loop deadstick. :) Wouldn't be close to round, but neither is the -2.5G one he did in the video.

OK... so yet another foreign (German) RV acro video of maneuvers that almost nobody here in the states shows!!! Outside loops, avalanche, snaps... C'mon, this country probably outnumbers RVs in any other country 500:1! :p
 
Always great info on this topic. :)

Energy management can be a fun exercise with fixed pitch.

Start your sequence with a 45deg down line. Achieve your maximum desired airspeed/prop rpm. After that, don't touch the throttle throughtout the rest of the sequence. If and when you wash out of a maneuve...., recover... Climb and try it again.
 
I have a question on learning aerobatics so that I will be prepared to do it in my RV-8. Our plane is still a few months away from even getting in the air, I'm just daydreaming.

I was wondering what aircraft would be best to get aerobatics training in that would best prepare me for acro in the RV-8? I have access to an Extra, but its constant speed, our RV is fixed pitch.

How will I get used to the light stick forces that result from 2 up aerobatics other than practicing two up in an RV-8?

How will I fair having a fixed pitch prop? Will I always pull to idle on the down line? I know the RV will gain speed fast, but is acro definitely doable if done correctly?

Yes I know i need training which will most likely answer all these questions, but I am daydreaming at work and wanted to have a prelim discussion. Thanks guys.

The best aerobatic training for your RV-8 would be in an RV-8 for initial or recurrent. The mind and body can well adapt to about anything during the learning curve.
 
I was wondering what aircraft would be best to get aerobatics training in that would best prepare me for acro in the RV-8?
Aircraft not that important, the instructor and course / syllabus more important.

I have access to an Extra, but its constant speed, our RV is fixed pitch
I fly C/S Extra, FP DR-107, C/S RV-8. To be honest, the Extra and DR-107 are in a different league to the RV. They are +/-10g machines, and high drag. I would not be too worried about the FP v C/S - the basics of aerobatics and safety principles are more important.

Contrary to some of the above, I would strongly suggest you do not learn aeros in an RV. Go into a typical, preferably high drag, aeros trainer, with a good instructor and learn the basics well. Given how easy it is to remove the wings of an RV, and/or exceed VNE, or just frighten yourself, I do not see it as a trainer.

How will I get used to the light stick forces that result from 2 up aerobatics other than practicing two up in an RV-8?
If you find the stick forces is how you fly aeros - get some more instruction :eek: Visual Attitudes, pitch rate, 'g' meter and your "gauges", not stick force.

Once you've got the basics well, a converison from C/S to FP, other type to RV, 1 up to 2 up, stick forces, is just a matter of a good brief, and maybe a quick famil if able.
 
CAP 10

Matthew,
The closest aircraft to an RV for acro is the CAP 10, which I learned in over 20 years ago. It has the same airfoil as the RV. The only major differences I found were inverted turns and vertical rolls, where the RV has differential ailerons and the CAP 10 doesn't. Unfortunately, I don't know any US acro school that uses the CAP 10 any more, so you'd have to go overseas like my Oregon buddy does once a year. The RV might not be that competitive against Pitts, but it's the pilot that counts. It's also the ticket to mingle with the best pilots in the world at IAC competitions and have just as much fun.
Cheers,
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
Alabama
 
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