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W&B Question for the Lawyers or DAR's...

Jvon811

Well Known Member
If you're short on time or patience... The short(er) version of the question is at the bottom.

What exactly constitutes a legal Weight and Balance on the RV? The included pictures are screen grabs of some data here so people don't have to go looking for my sources. This is a question my black and white, look it up in the book, Part 121 brain just wont let go of.

I know FAR 91.9 roughly spells out "ARROW" as the required documents onboard. What exactly is the W in a Experimental aircraft with a Special Airworthiness Certificate? FAR 91.103 states I need to know "all available information concerning the flight" which would significantly change the W&B with or without a passenger in my RV-4 for example. Section 14 of the Van's Construction Manual does have a nice W&B form with sections for Most Forward CG and Most Aft CG which does define the limits nicely for the CG envelope. I believe one could argue that if I'm standing on a ramp, with a passenger, and we both weigh less than the Section 14 W&B form has calculated, then we're within known W&B numbers and 91.103 compliant but not really armed with a W&B of the current state of my airplane with my passenger, fuel, baggage, and myself.

AC 20-27G refers to a "weight and balance report" being submitted with the paperwork for a new homebuilt, but I can't seem to find what exactly that report is. (far right attached pic)

FAA Order 8130.2H spells out W&B requirements for E-LSA, but not E-AB (that I could find) (far left attached pic)

Order 8130.2H also has a sample form of 8130-11 (irrelevant, I know) showing what is in a Weight and Balance Report. That's the only place I've found on the internet in a FAA document showing what's in a "report" (middle attached pic)

So if someone is a second hand owner (such as myself), or a builder just re-weigh's their aircraft after some additions or subtractions, what do they use? Some might use their own forms, but I'm wondering how many just go to the Van's Aircraft website and download what I refer to as the "Short Form". If you've seen it, you know it's a Empty CG W&B form, and that appears to be all it is. CG of your empty airplane only. No room for information about your airplane with fuel, pilot, passenger, or baggage. If you're like me, you might also have Foreflight on your iPhone (or equivalent) which is always in your pocket and you can whip up an actual/real time W&B anytime to supplement the short form.

So the real question is, is the downloadable Empty W&B short form on the Van's Aircraft website a legal W&B to carry in the airplane (with supplementation i.e. Foreflight on your phone). Or does it HAVE to be a copy of the 2 Page, W&B form from Section 14 outlining the full possible CG range? I understand there is a Note right at the top of the short form stating it's not a replacement for the Section 14 forms. How many though, if any, second-hand RV owners have the long forms if they've reweighed the airplane? If I were to be ramp checked, standing there with two people and my RV-4, would the downloadable Empty CG short form suffice?


Through all of my 2+ hours of research to type this question up, I think I've sufficiently answered my own question, but I'd like to know an ASI or DAR's opinion.
 

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I believe all that the FAA wants is for you or anyone else to be able to be to calculate weight and balance. It does not specify how to go about it, just rather have enough information available to do so. This would include empty weight and C.G., gross weight, & locations of necessary stations for pilot/pax, fuel baggage etc.. So, if you are ever ramp checked, can you provide a W&B calculation? If the answer is YES, then I think that will suffice.
I carry the Van's W&B paperwork, but also have electronic available in my EFIS.
 
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I'm prepping the paperwork for my inspection and what needs to be submitted for W&B consists of the weigh job worksheet to determine the empty weight and empty C.G., an equipment list showing everything installed when weighed and a series of trial calculations of loaded W&B at most forward and aft C.G. At a minimum you need to carry the weigh job worksheet in the aircraft and be prepared to defend your loaded condition when ramp checked. That weigh job worksheet is the only place I know of where the max gross weight is specified. The worksheet also shows the arms and C.G. limits that would normally be in a POH.

Some certified aircraft are not individually weighed and come from the factory with a calculated empty weight and empty C.G. accounting for the installed equipment options. All the arms and C.G. envelope are in the POH.
 
I have been retired from being a DAR for 7-years. Mel has done 100 times more airplanes that I have so he may add more info than what I remember.

You are required to have a weight and balance report in the airplane.

The FAA required that the report be within weight and balance limits for initial airworthiness inspection.

For the initial Airworthiness inspection, the report was required to include Empty Weight CG, Gross Weight CG, most Aft Weight CG, most Forward CG, and first flight Weight CG calculations. (show calculations) IF the report had at least that info, it would typically fly through the FAA paperwork inspection. IF most forward and most aft are at extreme balance locations, then the W&B report will tend to help the pilot have a "Go - No Go" indication.

Send me a PM with your email address and I will send you an OLD spreadsheet that I put together back before 2013 with conditional formatting that would highlight in GREEN for good and RED for bad CG balance.

The attached PDF is what the *.XLS looks like before it is filled out. You will be able to modify the spreadsheet to fit your needs. There are some hidden rows with additional cases that may be helpful but what I am showing you has typically be the minimum required. (It worked for me on numerous ramp checks when I was flying formation in air shows with my airplane.)

View attachment W&B_Sample_With_Conditional_Formatting.xls.pdf
 
The weight and balance report my FAA office likes is one that includes all the info on the spreadsheet I've attached here. Read the notes carefully on the bottom of the form, as these outline the way the report should be filled out for certification purposes. (The forum won't accept an Excel file, so I had to turn it into a pdf. I can send the Excel spreadsheet to anyone who wants it. just let me know)

Once the aircraft has been issued an airworthiness certificate, the important info to have on board is that which will allow the operator to calculate a weight and balance for the flight being undertaken. So empty weight and CG, CG limits, arms for all the loading points. and gross weight info is the bare necessity.
 

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W&B

I am not totally sure what you are asking, since you raise MANY questions, but the crux of the matter is that yes, you must have weight and balance information in the aircraft based on what the AS_BUILT, CURRENT aircraft W&B is. Whether that is from your original weighing and corrected as equipment is added and removed or an as-is current actual weighing and balance. When the aircraft is originally certified by the FAA, the weight and balance can be anything you say it is, but be prepared to justify it, and later to prove that the aircraft is tested in the range of weight and balance in Phase 1 prior to going to phase 2.

Remember, you could have designed this aircraft yourself with no kit involved and no designer involved other than yourself. In which case there is NO W&B basis.

As for lawyers, that is another matter entirely. If it comes to that and you built a kit aircrat and decided on different W&B limits the lawyers would have a field day.
 
I am not totally sure what you are asking, since you raise MANY questions

I guess that's my fault. I know what a W&B IS and what the book says needs to be on the aircraft. And I know what's required for airworthiness, I read a lot of AC 20-27G and 8130-3 last night. I thought my showing my sources would demonstrate that. My specific question is what constitutes a legal weight and balance for your actual flight.

Lets suppose all you have on board is the Empty CG "short form" for your aircraft, yet you get ramp checked with two 400lb pilots and 8,000lbs of baggage (obviously exaggerated). With regards to 91.103, do you think a Inspector would buy that you know your current W&B? My argument was that the blank forms in Section 14 of the Van's Construction Manuals that give outlines for the Most Forward and Most Aft CG ranges of your airplane (when computed out) draw a clear window. So, is the Empty CG only "short form" a legal W&B to carry in the airplane?

I was hoping an ASI or DAR could point to something specific in a document (that I haven't found) stating what needs to be carried other than a "weight and balance report". For all I know, it could be scribbles on a bar napkin. In a world where the FAA gets very specific about certain things, this one being so vague (even though they published an entire W&B handbook) is baffling to me.
 
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Your operating limitations, which must be in the aircraft during operation, have the base-line W&B information, along with the following statement. It is up to the PIC to ensure the plane is within W&B limits, experimental or not.

21. The pilot in command must not perform any maneuvers that have not been flight tested or operate the aircraft outside the weight, airspeeds, and center of gravity limits tested.
 
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I am not a DAR, but think what you're looking for is this:

First, to have the DAR inspection, you have to have weighed the aircraft and then put together sample loading illustrations to indicate that the empty and loaded aircraft CG falls within the fore and aft limits of the design. In the case of the 7, Van's (the last I knew) recommends a gross weight of 1800 - but if you indicate to your DAR that you want to go to 2000 and show the loading to that limit with the CGs within the fore and aft limits of the design, I wouldn't expect there would be a problem. After all, the aircraft has yet to be flight tested.

Second, having the airworthiness certificate, it's time to test the aircraft. In phase I, you incrementally ballast the aircraft to pump up the weight and to move the CG aft. In the course of testing, if the pitch stability starts to become static rather than dynamic, you stop. That data point becomes the aft CG. In the course of testing, if you move the weight up (in this example) to 2000 and you have the performance, that becomes your gross weight. You take this gross weight and CG info and put it into the entry that takes you from Phase I to Phase II.

So, let's say you want to be sure about your weight and balance - look at the current letter of operating limitations and you should find something like "...and the weight and CG location at which they were obtained...." These are the gross weight and the aft CG. If they aren't correct or need to be changed, I think your task is to put the aircraft back into Phase I, do the testing, and make the corrected entry to return to Phase II.

I think this is the explanation for encountering RV aircraft with higher gross weights than the Van's recommendations.

I am not saying it's a good idea to ignore Van's advice on the weight or, for that matter, the CG - their advice is based on the design of the aircraft not what someone can squeeze out of a climb rate. For example, someone puts an O-720 8 cylinder 400 hp lycoming on an unmodified airframe, loads ballast so the aircraft weighs 3000 pounds and manages to get 500 fpm climb out of it. They conclude the gross weight can be 3000 pounds. Safe? Legal? Smart? (We'll skip over the problem with the forward CG.)

As for the ramp checks, the last I knew you don't need to carry logbooks or test results with you. You don't have to keep them at your home airport. Presumably they're on a shelf in your garage at home. Your responsibility is to have considered the weight and balance prior to the flight. I don't believe you're even required to have that with you - just that it was done and you can speak to the result. So, if pressed in the ramp check, you simply agree to provide the worksheet to the inspector within a reasonable period. If pressed as to the gross weight number (say you used 2000 instead of 1800), you show them the logbook entry that documents the change from Phase I to Phase II. If you have an inspector doing the ramp checks who is unfamiliar with experimental aircraft, all bets are off (it could be a slog, but it will eventually get straightened out).

My $.02 - good luck.

Dan
 
Just My Experience

I reweigh our RV-6 or just calculate a Wt. & Bal. update every time we change something significant. The updated report goes into the aircraft file. Then I make up a Wt. & Bal. info sheet for the airplane. The sheet in the airplane is one page, and includes what you'd expect.... date, tail number, serial number, empty weight, empty weight CG, component locations, limits (all four.... oil, fuel, crew, baggage) with a sample Wt. & Bal. calculation and a simple form to fill out and calculate if the pilot wants to figure an actual weight and CG. The date and my signature go on the bottom. We got ramp checked once, intercepted as we shut down in front of our hangar. The FAA guy was professional, direct and efficient. My wife was flying that day so he wanted to see her license and medical. He looked at them in her hand, refusing to take them from her for examination. Then asked where the airworthiness, registration and Wt. & Bal. data was. She started to pull them out of the pocket on the side of the baggage compartment and the man quickly insisted she not remove them, he just wanted to see that they were there. That was it. Then we had a nice chat about the FAA issue hybrid car he'd driven there in. Here's hoping all ramp checks are like that one, it was no big deal. I was not worried, I look after the airplane and I knew everything was in place and legal. PM me if you'd like to see what our docs look like.
 
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W&B

"I was hoping an ASI or DAR could point to something specific in a document (that I haven't found) stating what needs to be carried other than a "weight and balance report". For all I know, it could be scribbles on a bar napkin. In a world where the FAA gets very specific about certain things, this one being so vague (even though they published an entire W&B handbook) is baffling to me."

Now I think I see what you are asking...you are asking if the ramp inspector may want to see an actual written W&B calculation done by you for this specific flight with actual fuel, actual baggage, and actual persons aboard. If so, the answer is no. But for sure, if asked to prove it, you had best be able to get the weight and balance docs out and calculate it. One reason so do the samples and for them to be part of the documentation in the airplane is to establish a typical loading scenario so you can know even without calculating that a known set of weights and locations will certainly be within the limits.
Ed
 
I think my question is so far into the weeds that I'm not yet clear enough on it. My apologize. I can sometimes focus on unnecessary details.

The airplane is weighed, it's in Phase 2, all of that is done... I get that, we're passed that.

Suppose you're sitting on the ramp, about to get in your airplane with a 150lb passenger and 50lbs of baggage and 20 gallons for fuel. (In my -4, that'll put me close the Aft CG, at gross weight). All you have on board for W&B documentation is the Empty Aircraft W&B CG calculation downloaded from the Van's website. I reweighed my new to me, 20 year old airplane and all I used was the "short form" for Empty CG. There's no other spaces on the form for other calculations. A kind man in a FAA hat, who may have experience with an Aft CG tandem homebuilt, walks up and asks if I've done a W&B for this flight (91.103) and do I know where my CG is?

This is where it could fall apart. Maybe an FAA inspector would NEVER ask this question. Lucky me... But I'd say that this scenario plays out more often than not in that one might not know their exact CG for this particular flight. You know you're within the envelope but how do you prove it when asked? Or, how do you know you're within the envelope if all you have is the "Short Form"? The weight could be much different from when the original airworthiness was issued.

My argument here is, the W&B in Section 14 (and others with their .XLS spreadsheets) have already accounted for the worst case CG loadings and could be printed out and carried in the airplane. Keep your passengers and baggage less than "these numbers" and you're fine, within the envelope. During the original issuance of the Special Airworthiness Certificate, some sort of all cases/worst case CG loading paper had to have been used. Then the airplane gets older, gets a new panel, whatever and gets re-weighed. Some may just download the quick form form the Van's Aircraft website. The "short form" does not account for worst case CG loadings, only Empty Weight CG. But some may have printed that form, filled it out, and carry it daily in their airplanes. The question again is, is that a legal W&B form? Can you justify that you're 91.103 compliant with just that form?

Raymo hit on the mushy FAA roundabout catch all... The Operating Limitations do state PIC must operate the airplane within the lines. But again, if the only lines on board the airplane (per 91.9, ARROW) is the Empty CG "short form" a legal W&B in the airplane? That's my question.

To be clear and to obstain judgment on me... This is all hypothetical. My airplane is not new to me, but I have reweighed it and carry a W&B from copies of the Construction Manual Section 14 two page W&B forms with my new, current weights. I know others who have reweighed and used just the "short form". This is where my hypothetical question comes from.
 
Yes, I mentioned this in the first post. I think it'd be legal to perhaps carry the Empty CG "Short Form" ONLY if you have something like Foreflight to accompany it. Otherwise, I'm not sure if the "Short Form" is a legal W&B. That's my question.

The truth is that I think your real question is independent of this being a homebuilt - you’re really asking if you have to have evidence that you have done a specific weight and balance for the flight, no matter what airplane. And the answer is that if you are asked, you should be able to prove that you are Operating within the defined limits. You need to have the aircraft’s generic W&B information to do that. But unless you are obviously way outside the limits (by simple observation), no one is going to ask. you should be able to show the basic amity aircraft W&B data that is required by ARROW.

Paul
 
By the way, these days it's AROW, not ARROW. The second R used to be for a radio station license (IIRC) but that went away years ago -- at least for planes flying domestically.
 
W&B

"This is where it could fall apart. Maybe an FAA inspector would NEVER ask this question. Lucky me... But I'd say that this scenario plays out more often than not in that one might not know their exact CG for this particular flight. You know you're within the envelope but how do you prove it when asked? Or, how do you know you're within the envelope if all you have is the "Short Form"? The weight could be much different from when the original airworthiness was issued."

If you are asking if it would be acceptable to the inspector that your only weight and balance info on hand is the Vans published weight and balance on their advertising info or plans, then the answer is maybe, but it would be illegal. Maybe he would catch it and maybe not. You MUST have the actual, current weight and balance, not just what it was when first inspected 20 years ago. The weight and balance must be updated. That said, without the aircraft log book handy, which you dont have to have with you, then there is no way for him to know that the weight and CG of the aircraft shown on your form is not the current weight and CG. Of course, if nothing has been done in all those years to change the weight or CG, then all is good. Of course, again, there is no way for the inspector to know that on this ramp check. He could only find it out later after he sees the log books. Hhe is entitled to see if he asks to see them at some time convenient to you way after this ramp check. You do not have to have the logs with you but he is entitled to see them if he wants later.
Ed
 
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And the answer is that if you are asked, you should be able to prove that you are Operating within the defined limits.

That's still my exact question and I guess that's why I was relating this so much to my homebuilt story track. The airplane receives an Airworthiness Certificate with a specific W&B from 20 years ago. It was within CG limits with a certain payload on it's circa year 2000 paperwork. Things are modified, panel's replaced, smoke systems added, AP added, batteries moved, etc, and it's reweighed and all the new owner has is the Empty CG W&B form. How does one know if the same payload from the year 2000 is within the CG envelope of the airplane if they haven't done all the math? Is a Empty CG form alone legal to carry in the airplane? How can you prove your CG range with that form alone? Doesn't the new W&B supersede all the old information? You have an aircraft empty CG number and that's it. No defined envelope. Is that a legal W&B?
 
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It's really pretty simple...

What you need in the aircraft is a current weight & balance report that gives you enough information to calculate your payload.
That would include the current empty weight of the aircraft, gross weight and CG limits, and the arms of all seats, baggage area/s and fuel.

You don't have to have documentation showing that the aircraft is within limits at the time, but you must be able to calculate and show the the aircraft is in compliance if asked.

And BTW, the rules are not different for Experimental aircraft.
 
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What you need in the aircraft is a current weight & balance report that gives you enough information to calculate your payload.
That would include the current empty weight of the aircraft, gross weight and CG limits, and the arms of all seats, baggage area/s and fuel.

You don't have to have documentation showing that the aircraft is within limits at the time, but you must be able to calculate and show the the aircraft is in compliance if asked.

All in an App on my phone :). Move a few sliders to current config and BOOM...all plotted out nicely, including T/O and empty tanks.

Was ramp checked a couple of years ago, never even came up. Pilot's license, registration, A/W, Ops Limits. Oh, and he wanted to see that the seat belts and harnesses were functional. After that, we had a nice chat...grew up in the same city, it turned out. :)
 
Not so simple below the surface (to me)

I'm starting to think I'm becoming a bother. I feel like I'm just re-wording my question over and over until I hear a YES or NO... Sorry, guys.

What you need in the aircraft is a current weight & balance report that gives you enough information to calculate your payload.
That would include the current empty weight of the aircraft, gross weight and CG limits, and the arms of all seats, baggage area/s and fuel.

The "Short Form" gives you this... Good so far. Tracking...

You don't have to have documentation showing that the aircraft is within limits at the time, but you must be able to calculate and show the the aircraft is in compliance if asked.

I agree again, but here's the stiction point... 91.103 says specifically "Each PIC shall, BEFORE beginning a flight, become familiar with all information concerning THAT FLIGHT". This is where I think I'm hung up on the technicality. Sure, you don't have to calculate a W&B for each flight, but are you really in compliance with 91.103 if you don't have a good pre-determined loadout marking your CG range? Things such as the Long Form or various apps or XLS files can do this... The "Short Form" cannot. It tells you the CG of your empty airplane only. It does give you the station arms for calculating your current situation, but you'd have to go back and calculate it later. Therefore, not complying with "Before, that flight" part. So again, is the "Short Form" legal?

And BTW, the rules are not different for Experimental aircraft.

I understand this too. I don't think I suggested that they were. Being that homebuilt's tend to get modified a bit more than their certified counterparts, at least in my experience, there is much more potential for a change in CG. It may be small and insignificant, but this is a hypothetical question.

I very much dislike gotcha's and technicalities when it comes to the rules. I've seen one too many to not take them lightly. I feel like 91.103 is a neat one for the FAA to use if they wanted. I know I'm not alone, but I'm not likely to check AIRMET's, SIGMET's, TAF's, METARs (on a summer day), ALL Notams (yes i check notams...), do a proper W&B, call flight service, and be familiar with "ALL information concerning that flight" when I make the 8 minute flight over to my favorite restaurant 18nm away (to which I've made the trip 119 times this calendar year). If I dont have a "Long Form" W&B in the airplane, and decide to throw a 250lb friend in the backseat and take him/her to lunch, how can I prove for that flight that I am 91.103 compliant? This is my question. Likelihood of this ever happening where there's someone getting ramp checked and getting their hand slapped for this is very very low, I'm sure. But never Zero.
 
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Ramp check

63 years, I don't remember ever being asked for W&B by FAA on a ramp check.
One of my all time favorite ramp check stories: Parked in my usual spot near the FSDO following an all night part 135 scheduled freight trip. FSDO Inspector came up and very politely asked to check the airplane. He looked over the paperwork and then noticed that the pilot side shoulder strap was cut half way thru. Looked like a large rat had taken a bite out of it. He looked at me and asked "what do you think I should do about that?" I replied I think you should ground the airplane, which he did. I was nearing the end of a three year war with my boss. When I called him to tell him the FAA grounded the airplane I had a very difficult time not laughing
 
W&B

On the tandem airplanes the usual issue is aft cg with a heavy passenger. If I were concerned I would simply record some worst case numbers for max passenger weight with no baggage and with full baggage. Print the numbers on a card and keep them in the airplane.
 
YES.......

Therefore, not complying with "Before, that flight" part. So again, is the "Short Form" legal? YES!!!!!

If I dont have a "Long Form" W&B in the airplane, and decide to throw a 250lb friend in the backseat and take him/her to lunch, how can I prove for that flight that I am 91.103 compliant? This is my question. Likelihood of this ever happening where there's someone getting ramp checked and getting their hand slapped for this is very very low, I'm sure. But never Zero.

I don't know how to say it any clearer. You have to calculate W&B for every flight, but you don NOT have to carry the long form with you to prove it. You simply have to be able to do the calculations to show compliance if asked.
 
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