Aerobatic Areas

My question / issue regards aerobatic flight BELOW the shelf of Class B airspace. I live on the outskirts of Tampa. My field is under the Class B shelf. My preferred aerobatic area, about 5 miles away, is also under the shelf which extends up to 6000' in that area. I know this issue has been discussed extensively. But, I'm still having a hard time finding a definitive answer to the question of aerobatics UNDER the Class B shelf. The language in the reg says aerobatic flight is prohibited "Within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport."

My question hinges, I think, on the use of the words "surface area" in the reg. If surface means to constrain the lateral boundaries statement only to those areas of the airspace which touch the ground, then one would think you could do aerobatics below the shelf, in areas that don't touch the ground, while meeting all the other requirements. Since the lateral limits don't reach the ground (surface area) that area wouldn't be included in the prohibition.

I could probably answer this question and get on record with the FSDO by asking the question to them directly but I'm hesitant to do so for a few reasons. First, my local FSDO might give their interpretation but might miss the mark on getting it correct as determined by the Administrator. Second, they might look at my previous flights (thanks ADSB) and determine I violated the reg. Thirdly, I'm always afraid to raise my head above the foxhole when it comes to our FAA friends.

Your thoughts?

f14av8r said:

my local FSDO might give their interpretation but might miss the mark on getting it correct as determined by the Administrator.

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I think that's a reasonable concern. When unsure (and they often are) they respond with the most conservative answer possible. OTOH I don't see how a "surface area" can be interpreted as anything other than an area that touches the surface; but I'm not a lawyer.
I think I'd be more concerned with clearance from V509 and V97. There's some room, but not much, and you can bet they'll be watching.

I don't have a definitive answer but I would interpret the regulation to mean anything within the outer limits of that upside down wedding cake. Including *below the class B shelf. I know here in SD *everyone I know ventures just outside the outer limits of the class B area. Examples....El Capitan Reservoir, off the coast of Imperial Beach NOLF, North of Ramona. I suspect they all know something I don't.

I think all your concerns are valid.

There was an AOPA article about this issue years ago. Based on a situation in Minneapolis, IIRC.

The answer was that aerobatics are prohibited in the B, C, and surface based E airspace, but if you are outside that, and sufficiently clear of the other restrictions such as airways, you're OK. So, under (but not in) class B should be OK unless you're too close to an airway.

You can find some info here:

https://www.aopa.org/-/media/files/aopa/home/pilot-resources/asi/safety-advisors/sa02.pdf

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2002/june/flight-training-magazine/legal-briefing

That said, why not call AOPA or EAA for more certainty? Probably won't cost you a dime.

I got your back....this should answer your question, with chapter and verse if needed. You are good to go under the bravo shelf, but not in areas that go to surface.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...rps/2006/Hucker_2006_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

Acenels said:

I got your back....this should answer your question, with chapter and verse if needed. You are good to go under the bravo shelf, but not in areas that go to surface.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...rps/2006/Hucker_2006_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

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Perfect! I’m happy to have this favorable interpretation in hand. Thanks!

Another Question

FAR 91.303 prohibits aerobatic flight within 4nm of a federal airway. Is a T route considered a federal airways in the same manner as a victor airway?

Yes, a T-route is also considered a Federal Airway. Don't have the reference handy right now, but I researched this a couple of years ago.

Merrill

Addendum: I researched this a few years ago, when a T-Route was established right where we had done legal aerobatics, previously. At the time, I was persuaded that the T-Route qualified as a Federal Airway. Hence, my response above. However, researching today, I am unconvinced. CFR 71.13 clearly defines a Federal Airway as a VOR Federal Airway or a Colored Federal Airway (green, amber, red, blue). These, along with Jet Routes and RNAV Routes are defined as ATS (Air Traffic Service Routes). I'm not an attorney, or FAA. Please let us know if you find a definitive answer. Thanks.

Still looking

I have been unable to ascertain if the T route is a federal airway from my searches. It seems to hinge on lack of nav aid anchors as pertains to Victor and Jet Routes. If you can further research it would be most appreciated.

You could always ask these guys - they seem to bring some interesting insights to questions like this:

https://www.opposingbases.com

I'm guessing that they would probably recommend talking to the controllers that cover that airspace to see if it's wise based on how they might be routing traffic.

See Addendum

to my post - #8

Merrill

Look at the regulation and AIM/FAR for definitions. If ever in doubt call your local FSDO and make the FAA earn their salary and ask them. They may not know so but it's good to cover your 6 O'clock.

§ 91.303 Aerobatic flight.
No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight -

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

Note: it says lateral boundary not inside class B, C, D or E (for airport). So class B's are 30NM. Yes you need to be beyond that 30NM from the airport as I read it.

(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

Note: Take that as a 8NM wide no go of Victor airway. This is can be restrictive.

(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or

(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.
[Doc. No. 18834, 54 FR 34308, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-227, 56 FR 65661, Dec. 17, 1991]

I had an aerobatic box pre 9/11 that was under the 3500’ ring of the class B. A different time but it can be accomplished. But as a govt employee, things don’t move very fast in their world.

gmcjetpilot said:

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

Note: it says lateral boundary not inside class B, C, D or E (for airport). So class B's are 30NM. Yes you need to be beyond that 30NM from the airport as I read it.

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No, it says within the lateral boundaries of SURFACE AREA...as the FAA has stated (see earlier post with link to FAA interpretation), that means the part of the Class B, C, etc., that starts *at the surface*.

And the 30 nm is the *mode C veil*, which has nothing to do with it.

gmcjetpilot said:

Look at the regulation and AIM/FAR for definitions. If ever in doubt call your local FSDO and make the FAA earn their salary and ask them. They may not know so but it's good to cover your 6 O'clock.

§ 91.303 Aerobatic flight.
No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight -

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

Note: it says lateral boundary not inside class B, C, D or E (for airport). So class B's are 30NM. Yes you need to be beyond that 30NM from the airport as I read it.

(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

Note: Take that as a 8NM wide no go of Victor airway. This is can be restrictive.

(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or

(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.
[Doc. No. 18834, 54 FR 34308, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-227, 56 FR 65661, Dec. 17, 1991]

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I think had you highlighted "surface areas" in red things would be more clear. I'm comfortable that the FAA legal interpretation supports flying aerobatics UNDER the shelf (not in the Class B airspace) as long as you meet all the other requirements.