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Panel upgrade need input

Tim 8-A

Tim 8-A

Well Known Member
Sponsor
I'm working with Up North Aviation on a panel cut out, and looking for experienced advice, can anyone see any issues with depth problems?
Anything else I might have missed?

A few things I want to confirm
1) In front of the right seat is the Dynon D120, any brace interference?
2) Is the avionics stack far enough to the right?
3) The D10a. any interference?

Thanks for the input.
Tim
 
Panel

Assure that the forward protrusion of the radio stack does not impinge on the forward rib F-1044A. I do not know the length of the units. I had to have a panel rebuilt due to protrusion of GTN 750 and GTN 650 units into the tapering rib. Your diagram suggests that the units are at the rib location.
 
With the 340 AP and 250 XL com they are shallow enough that its not an issue. After spending some time under the panel today it appears the D120 is to deep and will interfere with the right rib. So I guess I loose my storage box and will lower the D120.
 
Wow, Tim, that's a major upgrade. Are you getting rid of the GPS/COM that we had talked about?

On the radio stack, you want the right hand side of it at least 3/8 to the right of the center of the lower hole at the top to clear that rib. You might be a tad close there. The angle stiffener on that rib is on the left side of the rib, so you can get closer on that side than in the left side.

The right rib is easily modified with a piece of 1/16" angle that will allow the D-180. You will want the left Dynon to be the D-10 so you can DSAB the engine monitor info to it from the right side.

IMHO, the GI-106A will be of absolutely no use to you way over there. Unless you expect to be flying IFR from the right seat, I'd sell the GI-106A & either use the G3X for the HSI or add the HS-34 and show it on the D10, which provides a very nice HSI display.
 
Oh, and even though your upper radio stack trays may not reach the sub panel, the wiring harnesses will likely need to pass through it.
 
Jesse thanks for the reply, as always you bring up some good points.
With cost one of the concerns, I am leaving the radio stack as is, so the 250 GPS/COM is staying for now. I'm just sliding the stack over, and the harness shortens so little to no rewire there. The Garmin GI-106A CDI is strictly a back up for the G3X, so it also only relocates and the harness shortens. But you are right the chances of it getting used are probably slim to none, the HS 34 might be a better option.
If I can modify the right rib that would be a huge benefit I really want to leave the D120 as high on the panel as possible. It sounds like you have no concerns with modifying the rib?
Next step is, find out what wiring will be required to switch the 430W between the G3X and a HS 34 in regards to the CDI HSI.
 
If you have the plans, section 41, pages 2 and 3, details what Van's finds acceptable for modification of the structure behind the panel. If you don't have the plans, give me your email address and I'll send you an e-copy of that section.
 
I see you are planning on re-using a large part of your original panel.

I am not 100% sure on how you intend to connect and use certain parts of your plan with just the layout so I will just give some suggestions and things to think about.

One is the mechanical CDI. While it first seems it would be a good idea to have both an EHSI and a mechanical CDI, sometimes this can introduce issues. For instance, which one is gonna set the OBS/Course? There can be an issue where the mechanical OBS/Course never matches that of the EHSI and this can cause confusion. Also the mechanical knob/resolver in the mechanical unit can sometimes fight the EFIS for control causing erratic operation.

Another thing to consider is the switchology of using common sources to feed multiple EFIS systems. The EFIS makers do a pretty good job of making their user interface easy to use when dealing with their own selection of data sources but when you add additional switches in the mix, it can quickly become confusing as to what is driving what and it also introduces another failure point into the mix and significantly increases the wiring complexity.

Not sure if you were planning to use both the D120 EMS and the G3X EIS but this is a major challenge if you were planing to use both. The issue comes in when trying to share sensors. Anything can be done but it can be a major pain and expensive to do this.

Just some stuff to keep in mind.

It takes guts to tear into a good panel and do an upgrade like this!
 
Brantel is correct in that the resolvers will fight each other. I would lose the CDI. If the G3X goes away, you can always use the GPS display.
 
Some great commits guys, here is my existing panel. Might help explain my direction.
null_zps7d88d5f6.jpg
 
For HSI, just run the 2 arinc out wires to both systems, or all 4 for GPS and NAV. For an arinc feed back into the 430w, you have to choose one system, but it is probably not even needed. As long as both systems can use the same ARINC speed, you should be fine. Then you can see the HSI on both systems without a switch.

I assume you're keeping the ADI pilot, so leaving that tied directly to the 430W is best.

The RS232 aviation data output from the 430W will probably end up going to the Dynon, G3X and A/P.

Btw, a little surprised you're not going Skyview, but this way leaves more things unchanged and less, if anything, that you would need to sell. I wonder if the Gremlins in the Dynons and G3X will fight behind the panel. :)
 
The gremlins in the D120 are influencing me in the direction of the G3X ;).
Seriously the AP is one of the deciding factors in EFIS.
I send in my ADI 2 and the pitch servo with a $1,000.00 and they send me the GX pilot with new servo, no rewire required to the servos.
If I go with the Skyview its a complete new AP and wiring.
One of the main reasons for the upgrade is the ability to fly approaches and I have already upgraded the 430 to a WAAS.
 
Good info Brantel thanks, I am deleting the mechanical CDI sounds like its just not worth the complications it creates, and just to clarify I am going with one EIS my existing D120.



Brantel said:
I see you are planning on re-using a large part of your original panel.

I am not 100% sure on how you intend to connect and use certain parts of your plan with just the layout so I will just give some suggestions and things to think about.

One is the mechanical CDI. While it first seems it would be a good idea to have both an EHSI and a mechanical CDI, sometimes this can introduce issues. For instance, which one is gonna set the OBS/Course? There can be an issue where the mechanical OBS/Course never matches that of the EHSI and this can cause confusion. Also the mechanical knob/resolver in the mechanical unit can sometimes fight the EFIS for control causing erratic operation.

Another thing to consider is the switchology of using common sources to feed multiple EFIS systems. The EFIS makers do a pretty good job of making their user interface easy to use when dealing with their own selection of data sources but when you add additional switches in the mix, it can quickly become confusing as to what is driving what and it also introduces another failure point into the mix and significantly increases the wiring complexity.

Not sure if you were planning to use both the D120 EMS and the G3X EIS but this is a major challenge if you were planing to use both. The issue comes in when trying to share sensors. Anything can be done but it can be a major pain and expensive to do this.

Just some stuff to keep in mind.

It takes guts to tear into a good panel and do an upgrade like this!
Click to expand...
 
Tim 8-A said:
Good info Brantel thanks, I am deleting the mechanical CDI sounds like its just not worth the complications it creates, and just to clarify I am going with one EIS my existing D120.
Click to expand...

That is a wise move. The G3X can run with or without the EIS system being used. The new products even allow you to skip the EIS interface altogether if you don't need it.

Never had a single issue with my D120 so it should work well alongside the G3X.
 
I sent you a PM, Thanks
After further review today, it appears the center brace has been modified, so common sense would lead me to believe I shouldn't cut into the right brace.
So unless the plans say otherwise I will lower the D120.


flion said:
If you have the plans, section 41, pages 2 and 3, details what Van's finds acceptable for modification of the structure behind the panel. If you don't have the plans, give me your email address and I'll send you an e-copy of that section.
Click to expand...
 
Jesse said:
For an arinc feed back into the 430w, you have to choose one system, but it is probably not even needed.
Click to expand...

I think you need ARINC into the 430W for the OBS mode to work correctly. The 430w may ask for the info if there is no arinc line in but that's awkward to use, at best.
 
Tim 8-A said:
The gremlins in the D120 are influencing me in the direction of the G3X ;).
Seriously the AP is one of the deciding factors in EFIS.
I send in my ADI 2 and the pitch servo with a $1,000.00 and they send me the GX pilot with new servo, no rewire required to the servos.
If I go with the Skyview its a complete new AP and wiring.
One of the main reasons for the upgrade is the ability to fly approaches and I have already upgraded the 430 to a WAAS.
Click to expand...

The servos would need to be replaced, but not the wiring. The TruTrak harness is easily adapted to the Skyview system, and the Skyview now will couple approaches. Either way, you will have a very nice system.

On the ARINC into the 430, I have never once used the obs function in over 900 hours of flying and a fair bit of that IFR. Conceptually it is nice, but in practice I don't use it. Ymmv
 
The only time I've used the OBS function on the gps is for ad hoc holds. But I wonder if having it hooked up is part of the TSO? I have no idea. Since it's only 2 more wires, why not just do it.
 
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