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Tailwheel Endorsement - Future Insurance Benefits?

DevDad

Well Known Member
As Sarah and I get closer to getting started (we cleaned out the garage last night, and I built a modified EAA work table today; one more to build this week), we are beginning to talk more about which model we are going to build. We have gone back and forth and back and forth. Here's our decision process, and I will get to my real question towards the end. Feel free to skip to "The Question" if you don't want to read this stuff.

Decision 1: RV-7, RV-7A, RV-9A, or RV-10

While I think we will ultimately (many years down the road) end up with a -10, I think the financial burden of that project would be too much for us to handle. We are currently able to set aside $2-4K per month for a project, and given a 2-2.5 year timeline, a -10 just doesn't fit the bill.

I primarily want to have an airplane for cruising, and being able to hop around the southeast to meet with clients I otherwise never would have had the opportunity to meet. I work from home, but I think even my existing clients would appreciate a meeting a couple of times a year. This leads me thinking about the -9A.

Why don't I just start the -9A? Well, I like the higher gross of a -7/7A. I like the stronger airframe. I like the opportunity to do aerobatics, if I decide to do so. I like the fact that they seem to have a higher resale value than the -9A's. Are they more expensive? Well, the different in (new) engine costs between an IO-360 and a O-320 seem to actually be relatively small (<$5K). Faster? A little bit, but nothing crazy.

Ok, so now I'm at the -7/7A, which I've been planning on building, when the time is right, since checking Dan C's site every day to see if it was updated. I like the -7A, and don't feel the *macho* thing about taildraggers, but I would like to be able to fly the thing wherever I want. I don't want to be crapping myself on the "death taxi" at Oshkosh, etc. So, that leaves me thinking taildragger. I have plenty of time to decide, but I have begun to prepare myself, in the event that I go the TD route.

The Question:

I need a BFR, as it's been a long time since I've flown. I had planned to go get my taildragger endorsement to make my BFR a bit more interesting, kill two birds with one stone, etc. Anyway, is it worth getting my TD endorsement in a less "standard" training aircraft, to get some time in RV's? I'm thinking of doing a BFR/TD endorsement/RV transition with Jan Bussell here in Florida, instead of popping around in a C-172 for my BFR, or getting my TD endorsement in a Cub or something similar. Would the time in type help with my insurance, whether I end up going TD or NW with my RV?

For your reference, I'm about a 125 hour private pilot since '02, no incidents of any kind, etc.

Thanks!
Mike
 
Insurance

I was told I need 25 hours minimum tailwheel time in any airplane before they would even consider insuring my RV-7 once complete.
 
Go For it

I would highly recommend getting your tailwheel signoff, the tailwheel RV's are NOT hard to handle. Try out the tailwheel and see what you think, my personal opinion is if you are a lazy footed pilot you will have issues with either a TD or nosewheel.
Either way you will love I mean love your RV:D
Oh by the way go for the 7
All the best!!
 
Learning a new flying skill is always helpful, regardless of what you eventually build, own, and/or fly.

By the time I hit 350 hours I had over 50 different makes and models in my log book. Each plane flew differently. Each had controls in different places. Each required a different sight picture. Etc.

This will pay off with better pilot skills, IMHO.

BTW, my insurance requirement with that 350 hours TT for my TW -9 was all of three hours in any side-by-side RV and those hours didn't have to be with a CFI as I already had my TW endorsement. Before someone mentions it, there was no TW premium for my RV.
 
Question

Why so you assume that a 9A is better for cross countries than a 7A? I would suggest getting enough TW time before you decide to go the taildragger route.
 
tailwheel endorsement training not allowed in experimental

Hi,
I do not believe you can get the endorsement in an experimental plane RV or otherwise. I'm pretty sure it must be certificated aircraft. The CFI / owner of the RV needs a waiver to provide training in the RV (FAA or EAA authorized by FAA) and insurance.

I'd suggest get this year's BFR, then look for a local tailwheel instructor. Get the endorsement.

Then, go to an RV Transition CFI, fly a few hours with him and see if you like it (tailwheel). Site picture IS different, takeoffs and landings more challenging but... I decided it was what I wanted. Some of the transition training guys even have access to -A's and the RV10, try 'em all. Before I started the project I visited VANs and flew 4 hrs with Mike Seager to make sure I liked the plane (we flew RV6A - 'ol Blue)

I switched my RV7A to RV7 about 2 weeks before the SlowBuild Fuselage was to ship. So pick the plane, build the emp, decide SB or QB wings, then you have to decide tailwheel or trike.

For my initial tailwheel transition training I was flying with an aerobatic instructor, (Decathlon & Pitts) he wouldn't do the BFR (?) So I went and did the BFR in a 172 SP, had not flown a Cessna in over a year (busy building and doing the tailwheel training). Best review ever! Changed the scope of the rest of the BFR, had a lot of fun with it.

I got the tailwheel endorsement in an American Champion Adventure - Citabria.
The group I rented the 172 from bought the Adventure and I finished the tailwheel endorsement in it and a different CFI. (Lyn Dague) Their insurance required 25 hrs tailwheel and 15 in make and model before they would let you solo. It was worth it though. Learned alot, has a ton of fun.

Bottom line, get the endorsement, it WILL make you a better pilot tail wheel or trike

This last May I did the BFR in an RV7 (Bob Newhall now in North Carolina great CFI). This was great I got to Fly "my plane" (pretty close to mine anyway) at altitude (Denver area) before my plane is finished.

I'm finally moving into a hanger, and hope to be in flight test this time next year (wait that's tomorrow!)

my $.02

Have fun
 
I got the tailwheel endorsement in an American Champion Adventure - Citabria.
The group I rented the 172 from bought the Adventure and I finished the tailwheel endorsement in it and a different CFI. (Lyn Dague) Their insurance required 25 hrs tailwheel and 15 in make and model before they would let you solo. It was worth it though. Learned a lot, has a ton of fun.

It's a pretty small world. Lyn checked me out in a G1000 172S that I was renting a little this summer.

In addition to XX hours of tailwheel and YY hours in make/model, another fairly common insurance requirement for solo rental of a tailwheel aircraft is a minimum of ZZZ hours total time. So far, at both of the places I have inquired about renting, that minimum has been 125 hours total time. Shouldn't be a problem for DevDad since he has that many already but I figured I'd mention it for the benefit of anyone else who might be following the thread.
 
Tailwheel Endorsement-Florida

See the Florida (Central) forum here on VAF; I posted a question about getting a tailwheel endorsement there and received a number of replies. You've got some great options for training.

I'd recommend getting the endorsement in a plane that you'll be able to continue to fly locally after you get the signoff. That way you'll be able to continue to build up your tailwheel hours as you build and you'll easily meet insurance minimums regarding overall tailwheel experience by the time your RV is ready to fly.

Plan to get RV transition training so that it will be fresh when your plane is ready (unless you've got access to a flying RV during your build).
 
Thanks for the responses everyone!

Why so you assume that a 9A is better for cross countries than a 7A? I would suggest getting enough TW time before you decide to go the taildragger route.

It's pretty well defined to be a less "snappy" model. From what I've read, an autopilot pretty much negates the issue.

I'd recommend getting the endorsement in a plane that you'll be able to continue to fly locally after you get the signoff. That way you'll be able to continue to build up your tailwheel hours as you build and you'll easily meet insurance minimums regarding overall tailwheel experience by the time your RV is ready to fly.

Plan to get RV transition training so that it will be fresh when your plane is ready (unless you've got access to a flying RV during your build).

I definitely plan to do the RV transition training just before the first flight. Effectively, I'm wondering if time in "almost type" will be beneficial from an insurance standpoint? I realize that I'll need to fly a couple of hours a month to build up some TW time should I go that route.

Any other thoughts?

Mike
 
I did 100% of my tailwheel training in my RV-6, after I bought it. There's a number of ways of looking at your specific question:

- BFR in a 172: one hour air, one hour ground. BFR/TW training: 10 hours
- The cost of your insurance in a tailwheel RV is going to be very close to what it's going to be in a nosewheel RV, at least according to Ladd Gardner (sp?) at Falcon. He told me that they're just about identical in cost.
- My experience was that your first price decrease is going to be at or around the 50 hour mark in either airplane.
- Falcon required 10 hours dual, 15 hours solo before carrying pax. I did the 10 dual for my tailwheel signoff. I had to get the CFI on my policy as a named insured, but that was easy.
 
Cross country and auto-pilots

Mike, getting an autopilot (preferably dual axis) may be the best addition to making cross countries easier and less tiresome.
 
Same boat here

I too, thought of just doing the BFR in the TD after a long layoff from PIC time. I went and got an intro tailwheel lesson in a Citabria and after discussion with the instructor decided to go back and get my BFR in the Cessnas I am more familiar with. Given the fact I hadn't done a takeoff or landing (RV rides didn't count) for so long I think it was the better way to go. Plus, your BFR won't be completed until the instructor will sign you off, which for me, he said I would have to practically finish the whole TD signoff. I still need to go back to the TD instructor but illness, winter and the holidays got in the way.



By the way, the Citabria is just so different that it was quite fun. I got a "Citabria grin":D
 
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BFR in comfort, then TW

Here's my $0.02

I just got my TW endorsement a little over a year ago in a Citabria. If you have lots of time to fly, like three times a week or more, then sure, go ahead and combine it with the BFR. But understand the TW endorsement is going to take about 7-10 hours of dual time. The FBO's insurance requirements could require more than that to rent solo though.

If you want to knock the BFR out so you can rent and solo other airplanes while you work on the TW, then I would suggest doing the BFR in something you're comfortable with and easy to land, then work on the TW endorsement when you have the time.

I also just went through the insurance discussion as well. If you do a search or read my posts going back to mid-Nov or so, you should be able to get the details, or PM me for a full download.

FWIW, I wear a huge Citabria grin everytime I go out to the airport now (unless I'm flying the Super Decathlon they have).... Can't wait for the RV grin in my own -8!!!
 
Go get your BFR in whatever the FBO has. That will make it easier to knock the rust off. Then stay current. Fly fly fly while you build. Doesn't really matter what. When you are about 6 mos from your first flight go get a TW endorsement in a Citabria. Then practice flying that for a while. Just prior to your first flight I HIGHLY recommend an RV transition flight with either Mike Seager in Oregon, or whomever is qualified to do these things now. You'll actually find the RV much easier to land than the Citabria, btw. Then when it's time for first flight you should have no problems at all. Other than first time jitters. :) The TW RVs (excluding the RV-8) are about the easiest landing taildraggers out there.
 
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The TW RVs (excluding the RV-8) are about the easiest landing taildraggers out there.

I'd like to confirm that, but I can land the Val almost with my eyes closed (easiest taildragger I've ever flown...), and am STILL trying to figure out how to be consistent with the -6....The nice thing about an -8 is you can still see over the nose when the tail is on the ground!

Paul
 
Mike

Mike,

IF?,,, you can,,,, buy a Cessna C 120 /140 NOW!!!. Fly it while you are building your RV7/RV7a ??? When you come to the engine purchase for your RV7,,,, it will be a 7 by that time,,,, sell it, to buy the 0-360. You will be really good with tail wheel airplanes and you will have a good flying experience along the way.
I bought an airplane before I soloed, had to get someone to fly it to my training airport. Wish it had been a tail wheel. It opens so many more possibilities. I have since fixed that.
 
The TW RVs (excluding the RV-8) are about the easiest landing taildraggers out there.

I'm curious about this sentiment which I've seen echoed by many. Isn't the easiest airplane to land the one we own and are most current in? Also, I think a lot of folks may compare their current level of ability in their RV with their experiences (in another airplane) during tailwheel training. Don't get me wrong, RV's are very straightforward landing airplanes. I'm just thinking about how easy it is to get a frequent PERFECT landing...minimum float, silky arrival, no hops chirps or bounces. RV's have very springy gear and are sensitive to airspeed.

Among tailwheel airplanes, my observations are that RV's are the most frequently bounced of any type I've seen. Nothing wheel landed easier than my old Champ with the "no-bounce" oleo. I found the Citabria incredibly easy to 3-point, given the visibility over the nose and the soft spring gear. I'm far from the world's most experienced TW pilot, but I've flown enough types from Pitts to J-3 to realize that there are no "hard" to land airplanes, just ones that are a little different from what you're current in.
 
I'm curious about this sentiment which I've seen echoed by many. Isn't the easiest airplane to land the one we own and are most current in? Also, I think a lot of folks may compare their current level of ability in their RV with their experiences (in another airplane) during tailwheel training. Don't get me wrong, RV's are very straightforward landing airplanes. I'm just thinking about how easy it is to get a frequent PERFECT landing...minimum float, silky arrival, no hops chirps or bounces. RV's have very springy gear and are sensitive to airspeed.

Among tailwheel airplanes, my observations are that RV's are the most frequently bounced of any type I've seen. Nothing wheel landed easier than my old Champ with the "no-bounce" oleo. I found the Citabria incredibly easy to 3-point, given the visibility over the nose and the soft spring gear. I'm far from the world's most experienced TW pilot, but I've flown enough types from Pitts to J-3 to realize that there are no "hard" to land airplanes, just ones that are a little different from what you're current in.

Good points, Eric. I also wonder about the "easiest to land" comments and am unable to justify them with the RV landings I see at fly-ins. :)

It is my experience that the tailgear RV is difficult to land "perfectly" on a real consistent basis. The short wings require the pilot to be precisely on target for correct airspeed and glide angle in order to grease a landing. The springy gear is unforgiving of high sink rates and/or high landing speed. Too much of either will launch the plane into a series of hops resulting in the landings often observed when RVs flock together.

Having said all that, I think the RV is a very safe taildragger because the errors described above seldom damage more than the pilot's ego. The RV, while requiring proficiency (maybe some luck when wind is part of the equation?) to land "perfectly", is easy to keep pointed down the runway and has a lot less tendency to head for the weeds than many other taildraggers. I have landed my RV-6 in much higher than prudent crosswinds, and while the landings were sometimes, well, bumpy and noisy, :eek: they never caused me to doubt the safe outcome of the, ah....arrival.

The RV is a well-behaved taildragger, but I agree with Mike Seager's assessment of flying an RV--"Easy to fly, but not so easy to fly precisely". The pilot who is well-versed in any taildragger should have great success with a conventional-geared RV, but the nose-wheel pilot just beginning transition to a taildragger RV may very well consider us RV 'dragger pilots as nuts.
 
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Gee, dear, I think you are quite consistent with your landings in Mikey. ;)

Well, of course, I'd prefer them to be consistently GOOD....:eek:

I'm new here, and unfortunately haven't had the chance to meet either of you. But, I do have to say that your message board banter is amazingly sweet, and dare I say, cute! ;)

Every time I go to show Sarah a thread about one thing or another, if it features both of you guys, she says "That's so cute!".

Mike
 
I'm new here, and unfortunately haven't had the chance to meet either of you. But, I do have to say that your message board banter is amazingly sweet, and dare I say, cute! ;)

Every time I go to show Sarah a thread about one thing or another, if it features both of you guys, she says "That's so cute!".

Mike

Thanks, Mike. I'm grateful that Paul enjoys a little, good-natured banter and the two of us share the same humor. But, I wonder how many VAF posters would appreciate their wife/fiancee/girlfriend monitoring their every posts? :eek: I'm glad he encourages my participation, instead.

I look forward to meeting you sometime, too!
 
Florida

Mike,

I do not know any thing about your insurance question. But the more flying experience you get the better off you are.
I think Doug had about 125 hours when he started flying 'Flash', he is a good pilot now.
I hope to see you flying something soon.
Carol and I will be coming through Tampa in February. We are going to Staniel Cay, Bahamas with a bunch of other RV pilots. We plan to stage in Venice going and coming. We will be there for Sun N Fun as well. Maybe we can hook up and do some flying.

Cheers
 
Mike,

I do not know any thing about your insurance question. But the more flying experience you get the better off you are.
I think Doug had about 125 hours when he started flying 'Flash', he is a good pilot now.
I hope to see you flying something soon.
Carol and I will be coming through Tampa in February. We are going to Staniel Cay, Bahamas with a bunch of other RV pilots. We plan to stage in Venice going and coming. We will be there for Sun N Fun as well. Maybe we can hook up and do some flying.

Cheers

Jay,

I'll definitely be at Sun-N-Fun! I was actually thinking about doing a cookout for some RV guys, in the event that there was a "flock" of them passing through. But, my house is tiny, so I'm not sure I could accommodate >10 for a cookout. If that is something you guys would be interested in for February, let me know! I'll find a way to get all of you from X39 or KBKV to my house, and back.

Thanks!
Mike
 
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