From Nosedragger to Taildragger- Aha moment!

Ok- I have a WHOPPING 10 HRS in a tailwheel now.

6hrs in in a RV6 getting my tailwheel endorsement and another 4 now actually figuring out the finer points of how the devil you fly a tailwheel airplane.

PLEASE NOTE: The light bulb in my head is gently flickering, I have not started to make consistent landings (or- I am consistently making inconsistent landings)...but:

1. First and most obvious (and yet least used); The pedal thingies keep the nose straight down the runway and the stick thingy keeps the airplane centered on the runway. Why it took awhile for brain to connect with hand and foot (hand & foot disease?) I don't know. Now I look for the flag before landing and mentally make a note to correct aileron into the wind before short final- helped a lot.

2. PITCH (glideslope) not FLAIR- (I know I'm gonna get it for this) When I took private lessons; how do you slow the airplane? Attitude and/or Airspeed. Pull the nose up and airspeed slows, pull the power, speed slows. I have become accustomed to using attitude on final to stay/get in the landing speed zone. In a cessna or piper- that's ok. NOT IN A RV. So obvious and I just got it yesterday- set your pitch (glideslope) on final based on a chosen touchdown spot and CONTROL POWER (maintain your pitch all the way down). This means setting up from base to final takes more work to make sure you're at a good descent rate and airspeed combo. I'm finding 1300rpm gets me 500ft/min descent at 80kn- is a comfortable starting point (I'm using a chunk of runway, I know). If you flair too high in a RV you drop like a rock (ughh) and if you're too fast you'll balloon trying to force it on the ground. This means there's a whole lot less stick fore/aft input on a steady descent, not dipping the nose to speed up or raising the nose to slow down.

3. I think tailwheel training would benefit every pilot. If asked- I would suggest getting primary instruction in a tailwheel after personally having done just the opposite. Principle is easily applied in a tailwheel. You get a REALLY good idea of what the rudder and aileron do in a tailwheel airplane- and learn to fly the airplane from engine start to stop.

It sure is a lot of fun!

Sounds like you're getting the hang of it. Once I finish the empennage and before I am financially ready to purchase the wings, I hope to get a lot of time in Matt's J3. Too bad I can't log those hours, but at least I'll be able to get the experience.

Congratulations.

Welcome to the "real pilots fly tail dragger's club".

Are you 3 pointing it, or wheel landing???

Wheel landing easier, but often done at higher speed. Lowest speed is only possible in a 3 point, full stall, such as a short field landing.

I prefer to use less flaps in a wheel landing, although I am flying a Stinson, not an RV, however I suspect the RV will like less flaps also.

I had my introduction to RVs two weeks ago.

My motivation was to become familiar with flying an RV. Unfortunately the RV I got to fly was a taildragger which is not what I am building. OK, well, I will just get some taildragger experience as well as the RV familiarization.

Well, flying the RV is simple. The control is light and precise with lots of power. For me there was very little RV familiarization needed. Stalls are much sharper than a Cessna but the recovery is faster. The twist-knob trim arrangement takes some getting used to.

But the hard part was landing the taildragger. In 2.3 hours I didn't get it. The instructor was trying to impress upon me the need for small rapid rudder pedal inputs and I couldn't seem to get the feel for it. He had to overpower the controls away from me before I could get a chance to learn on my own - of course this was necessary because if he didn't I would have groundlooped the plane before I learned. Even take offs were a bit wild - too much or too little right rudder or a too slow push of the throttle can cause the airplane to swerve wildly on takeoff it seems.

Sorry, but I came away from the experience not seeing the value or charm of the taildragger. It just seems like landing a tricycle gear aircraft is straightforward and a taildragger is a lot more difficult to do the same thing.

Yes, yes, I am sure lots of pilots have learned it and are happy with it. I guess it would just take a bunch more time to learn than I want to invest in it just now.

--JCB

jcmcdowell said:

1. First and most obvious (and yet least used); The pedal thingies keep the nose straight down the runway and the stick thingy keeps the airplane centered on the runway. Why it took awhile for brain to connect with hand and foot (hand & foot disease?) I don't know. Now I look for the flag before landing and mentally make a note to correct aileron into the wind before short final- helped a lot.

Click to expand...

Interesting ... this is how I was taught to land a nosedragger. Is it an LSA thing?

I prefer to use less flaps in a wheel landing, although I am flying a Stinson, not an RV, however I suspect the RV will like less flaps also.

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Many of us prefer full flaps when wheel landing an RV because the flaps lower the nose (or is it raise the tail?) and put the plane at a better landing attitude. Once wheel landings can be made consistently, they can be made at nearly the same speed and runway as three-pointers. After three-pointing the RV-6 for the first couple of years, I have found wheel landings to be much more consistent over the course of the past six years.

From a different post:

Even take offs were a bit wild - too much or too little right rudder or a too slow push of the throttle can cause the airplane to swerve wildly on takeoff it seems.
Sorry, but I came away from the experience not seeing the value or charm of the taildragger. It just seems like landing a tricycle gear aircraft is straightforward and a taildragger is a lot more difficult to do the same thing.

Yes, yes, I am sure lots of pilots have learned it and are happy with it. I guess it would just take a bunch more time to learn than I want to invest in it just now.

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Oh my....not sure how to respond to this one.....maybe take the lazy way out with some snide remark about the difference between airplane drivers and airplane pilots???? Naw, that wouldn't be very polite.

Thanks

Sam, thanks for the insight----------

It is strange how two different planes will react to things. In the Stinson, full flaps make a wheel landing harder due to the bird having a tendency to float around and hunt for a straight line at touchdown. Perhaps it is the fact that on a high wing, the flaps blank out the tail in landing config????

I have never flown a RV with conventional gear, and as I am building a 10, the chances of my doing so are not too high.

Unless, I can convince the wife we need a Super 8.

Sam Buchanan said:

Once wheel landings can be made consistently, they can be made at nearly the same speed and runway as three-pointers.

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I have to agree with Sam on this one. For a while I was flying a little faster on my wheel landings and would sometimes get a little bounce. I now fly basically the same approach but add a little power at the end to slow my descent. I also learned from a local rocket flier to touch one wheel first. I found that really helps keep the bounces away.

I also use full flaps, but it's an RV9. There are only two flap positions, all or nothing.

After being a Cherokee driver for over 12 years, I needed to get my Taildragger Endorsement for flying my SeaRey. I found out very quickly how inattentive, sloppy, and automated my flying had become.

Flying a taildragger, with its own unique characteristics, quickly points out areas that have slipped in pilot proficiency and brings you back to being more aware as to what is happening in the landing and TO phases of flight. Every pilot, regardless of what they fly, should have enough TD training and recurrent training to keep them sharp and proficient.

It's very easy to lose the edge you gain during TD training if you allow yourself to slip into bad habits. I fly a 7A, but my TD training has helped me remain sharper, and safer, when flying.

Besides, it's a hoot being able to pilot a Citabria down the better part of a runway on one main wheel in a stiff crosswind.

JMHO

Roberta

Nomex Maximus said:

I had my introduction to RVs two weeks ago.
Sorry, but I came away from the experience not seeing the value or charm of the taildragger.
--JCB

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Why I'm I not surprised Don't want to make you mad.......I'm sitting here laughing. We need to go fly together some time.

I have relatively little time in my RV8 and 400 hours in a Supercub. I am completely comfortable in the Cub and am well on my way to being comfortable in the 8.
It takes lots of landings and at some point landing a tail dragger becomes a matter of reflex. I wouldn't say landing a taildragger is as easy as a trike but it becomes likewise, a matter of procedure, busier than nosewheel landings but just as doable.
My primary instructor used to drum into me 'keep making the little corrections, so you won't have to make the big ones' ..words to live by.

steveKs. said:

My primary instructor used to drum into me 'keep making the little corrections, so you won't have to make the big ones' ..words to live by.

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Absolutely correct.

One thing that helps a lot is to watch the far end of the runway-----not close in or where you are trying to touch down.

The farther down the runway you look, the sooner you can detect small deviations in your path.

NO, yes, and 'not suprised'...

"Interesting ... this is how I was taught to land a nosedragger. Is it an LSA thing?"
__________________
Doug "The Other Doug Reeves" Reeves

No- it's not really experiencing the control effectiveness (and necessity) as a student pilot in a nosewheel. I was taught that too, but flying a Cessna or a Piper which are very docile lead to minimum proficiency for good landings. In the taildragger you need much more than minimum proficiency or you'll find out very quickly what you forgot. (wouldn't know about the LSA, but a taildragger lsa flies like a taildragger and a nosewheel lsa flies like a nosewheel- yes??)


"Many of us prefer full flaps when wheel landing an RV because the flaps lower the nose (or is it raise the tail?) and put the plane at a better landing attitude. Once wheel landings can be made consistently, they can be made at nearly the same speed and runway as three-pointers. After three-pointing the RV-6 for the first couple of years, I have found wheel landings to be much more consistent over the course of the past six years."

-Sam Buchanan


I've been having more success on wheel landings with half flaps. But I got my tailwheel endorsement in a RV6 with the smaller rudder- I wonder if the extra speed and the tail up gave more rudder control??

I'll start trying full flaps, I've been having a problem getting the speed down with half flaps and still keeping the glideslope (tendency to pick up the nose to slow down). My friend and CFI, suggests 65kn full flaps for wheel landings. I've been nervous to really try.

But the hard part was landing the taildragger. In 2.3 hours I didn't get it.

---JCB

That's not the hard part- That is THE PART. I wouldn't fret in 2.3 hours. For me the first day was fun (dead calm) because I wasn't expecting to be an ace. The second day was rough (slight crosswind) and I doubted that I could ever fly ANY airplane. The third day was pretty good (lowered expectations??) and I was having fun.

If you go for another lesson, ask the instructor to control the rudder and you work the stick (so you can feel the inputs), then you try the rudder. This was a big help in me absorbing the required inputs and then putting together foot and hand movements. I'm finding the movements are anticipated, not reactionary.

OH- the best thing; do full stop landings and taxi back. It's not a touch-n-go race. Time is time. It's hard enough figuring out how to land a taildragger without having to takeoff right away. Use a long runway and use ALL the runway. Think of your approach as a low pass- get to within a 1ft of the ground and gently try to keep the plane off the ground with slight power until the wheels comes to rest (forward stick-wheel landings). A 5000 ft runway gives you some time to get a mental picture and absorb the process.

Oh- and another thing...

Landing a taildragger was almost completely CONTRARY to landing a nosewheel.

NOSEWHEEL:
over the numbers, pull power, slowly start easing back the yoke (yuck yuck ) letting the airplane come to a complete stall as it touches down. Yoke should be full aft upon touchdown.

TAILDRAGGER: wheel landing (the short version)
over the numbers, maintain glideslope, add(maintain) slight power, at 1' off the runway pull power, maintain level flight, when wheels touch apply forward pressure (not all the way forward!!), after tail drops apply full back pressure, control rudder and aileron control to maintain centerline with light braking.

That push stick forward thing was SO CONTRARY to me. I understood, but it was hard to connect the brain and the hand (and have the hand listen to the brain).

MY 10hr TAILWHEEL LANDING:
over the numbers, too fast, pull power, pull up nose, not enough glideslope, nose down, still too fast, rudder rudder rudder, aileron aileron aileron, rudder aileron, wheels touch, forward pressure too late, bounce, apply slight power to arrest descent, not enough aileron into wind, slide- aileron, rudder rudder rudder, wheels touch, forward pressure too late AGAIN, little bounce, not enough aileron, corrective rudder, wheels touch, positive forward pressure, NOT ENOUGH RUDDER, aileron aileron, rudder rudder rudder, back to centerline, rudder, brake, rudder rudder rudder, brake rudder- clear of the active, stop, open canopy to get a fresh breeze from the adrenaline rush.

taxi back and depart. Can't get that kind of fun at Disneyland

jcmcdowell said:

. . .

But the hard part was landing the taildragger. In 2.3 hours I didn't get it.

---JCB

That's not the hard part- That is THE PART. I wouldn't fret in 2.3 hours...

. . .

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And don't think that I expected to have a tailwheel endorsement after 2.3 hours. That's just when my time available for the training ended. I am sure I could learn to do it given another ten or fifteen hours, but for me, I can't see the advantage. That's just me. I think what I wanted to try and get from the training was the ability to say that I have flown a tailwheel airplane and I could land one if I really needed to. I suppose if I took a deep breath and tried it again I could probably get the airplane back down without damage.

At this point, whenever I get done with the kit I would have enough on my hands test flying it that I really don't need the added complication of having to test fly a taildragger. I am happy though to have found out that if the airplane flies right then test flying it really should not be a problem for me.

Sounds like you are having fun mastering it though.

--JCB

jcmcdowell said:

In the taildragger you need much more than minimum proficiency or you'll find out very quickly what you forgot. (wouldn't know about the LSA, but a taildragger lsa flies like a taildragger and a nosewheel lsa flies like a nosewheel- yes??)

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I did most of my training in the very docile Thorp / IndUS T-211. It was tolerant of mistakes. I made many as a student pilot.

I now fly the CT, which someone described as landing "like a drunken dinosaur". Yes, it's a nosewheel, but it takes a lot of work to keep it on the centerline and pointed straight down the runway in anything but very calm wind. The CT does *not* require the same quick reflexes of the taildragger once on the ground, but it will happily bite you on the *** if you ignore the stick in crosswinds. Anyway, there's a BIG range in the "manners" of LSA.

And speaking of reflexes, my first TW instructor had me do hesitation takeoffs - get the tailwheel up and wheelie along on the mains at ~40kt. Once I was tracking the centerline well, he would STOMP on one of the pedals, cackling with glee, and I would recover, simultaneously questioning the sanity and life expectancy of both of us. However, it taught me to be quick and firm with the corrections. I recommend that you practice it, but preferably not with laughing coming from the instructor (well, not at first anyway).

TODR

I've been having more success on wheel landings with half flaps. But I got my tailwheel endorsement in a RV6 with the smaller rudder- I wonder if the extra speed and the tail up gave more rudder control??

I'll start trying full flaps, I've been having a problem getting the speed down with half flaps and still keeping the glideslope (tendency to pick up the nose to slow down). My friend and CFI, suggests 65kn full flaps for wheel landings. I've been nervous to really try.

Click to expand...

TAILDRAGGER: wheel landing (the short version)
over the numbers, maintain glideslope, add(maintain) slight power, at 1' off the runway pull power, maintain level flight, when wheels touch apply forward pressure (not all the way forward!!), after tail drops apply full back pressure, control rudder and aileron control to maintain centerline with light braking.

That push stick forward thing was SO CONTRARY to me. I understood, but it was hard to connect the brain and the hand (and have the hand listen to the brain).

Click to expand...

The above quotes point precisely to why I use full-flaps for wheel landings (exception being really nasty crosswinds). Full flaps will make speed control easier because you will be using a little more power and you can control sink rate with the throttle, not elevator. Since full flaps will lower the nose it isn't necessary to apply hardly any push to the stick once the wheels touch.

I must state that my wheel landings are the "tail low" type, still landing on the mains but the tail is lower than if landing a J-3.

65kts, assuming the airspeed indicator is correct, is a great speed to use for landing an RV. My best landings are when I force myself to get the speed down into the range where the plane quits flying as we land. You have to be in the 60's for this to happen.

If landing with full flaps at 65kts makes you nervous, use a 5000' runway to practice flying the plane in that configuration 1' above the runway. Once you discover the RV won't stop flying at 65kts, and you become accustomed to the different control response, you will be on your way to vastly improving your landings.

Have fun!

Good Advice-

I have a business partner that says,

"Don't let your greed overcome your avarice!"

Flying can be like that- I really want to get out there and DO IT ALL!!!

It's like taking my Private training all over again- Atleast this time I don't have to take a checkride!

Lets see here, it is my choice. I'm going the nose roller on my 7. Hummmm.... I have over 900 hrs on tail wheel. I guess I know how to fly them, so why? I guess I have so much money in the 7 that I just don't want to... no that's not it, I land a tail just fine. Hummm... why? I like the looks of the nose plane, yup, that's one. I like to see when I taxi, yup, that's another. I'm keeping the tail wheel plane, so I can always fly one, yup, that's another. Do I give a care what people think of my nose plane, NOPE. I know I can just about outfly anybody with a tailwheel. So I have no pride problem.

My take on landing a tail wheel. You don't have to dance on the rudder unless the conditions warrent. In other wards, on a nice stable day you can just input the rudder and land it. If the turbulance is up, than chances are you will not only be dancing on the rudder, but the stick will be all over the place as well to keep her steady. Looking down the runway, heck no, did I say heck no, I mean HECK NO. For one, chances are you have panel in the face anyway. It's out the left side and down, looking sometimes at the wheels, if you can see them, but otherwise, the side of the runway about 20ft out in front of you.

Don't Worry, Be Happy

Nomex Maximus said:

I had my introduction to RVs two weeks ago.

My motivation was to become familiar with flying an RV. Unfortunately the RV I got to fly was a taildragger which is not what I am building. OK, well, I will just get some taildragger experience as well as the RV familiarization.

Sorry, but I came away from the experience not seeing the value or charm of the taildragger. It just seems like landing a tricycle gear aircraft is straightforward and a taildragger is a lot more difficult to do the same thing.

--JCB

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This appears to be a classic case of "too much too soon".

I took my tailwheel training in a much tamer beast, an Aeronca Champ. I will confess that it took me about 10 hours before I felt "proficient" at landing it (and I was not a low time pilot back then). I then racked up some time in a Murphy Rebel (about 100 hours) and I didn't get "comfortable" for about 25 hours in the Murhpy.
Some pilots learn faster, some slower.

Transitioning from a tri-gear spam can to an RV6 taildragger is a big change.
The stress of an unfamiliar plane, with unfamiliar control feel, and the self induced pressure of "getting it right" probably caused your discouragement. Don't be discouraged. Taildraggers are just as much fun as tri-gears. They are just "different".

Once you have the feel for them, RV's are dead easy to fly/land.

Do yourself a favor, and try to get some tailwheel time in one of the classics, the Champ, or Decathlon or Cub. You may grow to love it. I certainly did.

allbee said:

Lets see here, it is my choice. I'm going the nose roller on my 7. Hummmm.... I have over 900 hrs on tail wheel. I guess I know how to fly them, so why? I guess I have so much money in the 7 that I just don't want to... no that's not it, I land a tail just fine. Hummm... why? I like the looks of the nose plane, yup, that's one. I like to see when I taxi, yup, that's another. I'm keeping the tail wheel plane, so I can always fly one, yup, that's another. Do I give a care what people think of my nose plane, NOPE. I know I can just about outfly anybody with a tailwheel. So I have no pride problem.

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Did you mean to include a quote here? I understand that TW/Nosewheel debates can get a little emotional, but this thread did not start as, nor develop into anything anti-nosewheel.

JCB,
The reason you want to learn to fly a tailwheel airplane is that you will become a better pilot. I'm not poking at you. This is not a ego issue. It is a cold hard fact. Practical issues of skill aside, you'll feel much more confident. That's worth a lot.

Another reason is that it opens up a whole 'nother group of airplanes with which to have fun....classic Cubs, all the biplanes, you name it. You're locked out if you have not bothered to develop the skill.

Wanna fly for free? Like it or not, the aviation community equates tailwheel skills with general stick and rudder competence. If you are clearly demonstating skill with more challenging airplanes, your local peers will volunteer their airplanes for your enjoyment. Maybe they won't lend you their prized Waco, but they won't think twice if you need to borrow an old C172.

We were all scared to death at 2 hours with a tailwheel. You won't do it in 2 hours. You might get a signoff in 15. You might be truly competent at 100 if you do a lot of T&G's and don't avoid windy days. Just do it.

sorry, I guess I was responding to post no. 4 where he stated:

Sorry, but I came away from the experience not seeing the value or charm of the taildragger. It just seems like landing a tricycle gear aircraft is straightforward and a taildragger is a lot more difficult to do the same thing.

and thought I would put in my input on tail draggers. I love my dragger, but there are advantages to the nose wheel as well. I want both.

Learning to fly a taildragger doesn't PRECLUDE flying a nosewheel. But the other way around does PRECLUDE you from flying a taildragger.

If asked- I would advise folks before taking lessons to take the lessons in a taildragger (cub, champ, etc...) going to a nosewheel would be a piece of cake, costs are the same- why not get the added experience, endorsement, skill set?

I wouldn't cry if my next plane was a RV10(a). But today I really appreciate the skill set taildraggers pilots possess (after personally bouncing down the runways a few times).

Good stuff!

This has been an interesting thread, and just reinforces my plan to somehow find training to get my license on a tailwheel from the outset (my existing 23 hours or so from *waaay* back notwithstanding). Not quite sure how, given that most clubs use trikes but that is just one more challenge in this project I guess! Thanks for everyone's input and to JCM for starting the thread with some honest revelations of his experiences.

Getting better

JC,
Don't fret.
The first 100 hrs is the hardest.
Pete

allbee said:

snipped

I like the looks of the nose plane, yup, that's one.

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That was my deciding factor with the "6" model. For the "7" I'd want a nose wheel too. For some reason these short wing planes just look more substantial with the "tail" up.

While spending months deciding between the tail and the nose, I got my tail wheel training in the Maule & Pitts. But in the end, it came down to looks (on the ground), as I think the tail wheel jobs look better for air to air shots.

Had the "8" been out at the time, it would have been tailwheel. And same with a Rocket/F1.

L.Adamson RV6A

I recommend that a new pilot start off in taildraggers if he/she can afford to do it. IMHO, it's the best way to learn how to be an aviator. That's the way I felt about it when I started, and over twenty years later my opinion hasn't changed.

Several hundred hours after starting this addiction, after not logging a single hour of nose wheel time, I decided I wouldn't sully my log book with any training wheel time, not one hour...unless it was an F-16

BTW, I'm a newby here (obviously). Just bought a flying 6, and I'm contemplating building a 7. Boy, howdy, are these things fun to fly!

And are they not the easiest landing tailwheel airplane there is?

Yup, one of the best behaved taildraggers I've ever flown...but I'm not gonna let my guard down.

Absolutely. Always pay attention. Especially when taxiing or landing an "A" model on grass.

45 hrs into flying a tailwheel...

OK- I'm really enjoying flying a taildragger now. I feel that I can "safely" land my airplane (sometimes I feel It's not pretty, but safe). I feel pretty good about a mild crosswind, but I need to work on keeping an eye on the windsock for aileron cross control with the rudder.

My soft fields are really improving- I'm just getting a feel for the 3pt landings (attitude picture) and working on getting those airspeeds down.

So far my 'magic' speeds have been 80kn over the numbers, but I'm trying to get that down to 70kn (still mushy).

I lean towards wheel landings, but I REALLY can see the advantage of 3pt'ers.

Maybe it's because I have a taildragger, but I REALLY LIKE flying the RV7! (where's my silk scarf and leather bonnet?)

I gotta give props to 'Quiet Tech' Halo headset- works great, sounds great, feels great! I'm selling my trusty AVSHOP A400 ANR headsets to buy another (the sale of both will buy one!)

I'm looking forward to my Catto Prop come October! We are going to run a 3 prop comparison for fun here at Falcon Field to test performance.

My Enigma EFIS is coming in next week! I'm awfully busy, but looking forward to getting started on that project! I'll have my "8" pack with subpanel for sale soon!

In conclusion- after 45 hours of taildragger time, the glideslope (or pitch angle) was the biggest que to help me move forward in repeatedly having positive landings (better than adequate).

LOVE THE TAILDRAGGER! the little wheel is your friend!

regards,

Way to go JC!

Nice PIREP follow up. Glad things are working out well, was curious to hear how your training went after reading the earlier posts.

I think it's good for folks to realize how much fun you can have learning a new skill. TD landings are really not that hard and often blown way out of proportion. It all just takes commitment and practice.

Glad you are enjoying your new bird,

Rob

When I was transitioning into taildraggers, I was amazed at the heightened awareness that is developed for that last 15 seconds of flight. My little brain felt like a Cray super-processor as I learned to weigh all of the variables and corrected to keep things proper. Somehow, time seems to drag out in those last seconds. What a great experience! Better than licking toads...

jcmcdowell said:

My Enigma EFIS is coming in next week! I'm awfully busy, but looking forward to getting started on that project! I'll have my "8" pack with subpanel for sale soon!

In conclusion- after 45 hours of taildragger time, the glideslope (or pitch angle) was the biggest que to help me move forward in repeatedly having positive landings (better than adequate).

LOVE THE TAILDRAGGER! the little wheel is your friend!

regards,

Click to expand...

Glad to hear of your progress and enjoyment of the tail wheel transitioning. I had about 550 hrs in a supercub and cessna 180 before I started flying my 6. I flew the 6 for about 100 hr and then decided to add AOA. I'll tell you what, as far as consistency of landings for me, the AOA made the biggest difference. They are not all perfect by any means, but they are much more consistant, and better. Your post indicated you are rebuilding your panel so I thought this would be a good time for a suggestion to include AOA if you are interested or can. I would absolutely recommend it. I will never have another plane without AOA.

Thanks for the update on your progress,

jim