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Inverted Spin

frankh

Well Known Member
Yes I have officially spun the 7a inverted!

It wasn't pretty, I didn't get a good stall (I'll explain below) but I did get a solid 1.5 rotations, then it flipped upright.

I couldn't get full forward on the stick (in fact remembering back to training I was told to hold the stick with my finger tips to get it all the way to the stop).

I need to move the seat forward and to roll invert and back again and then retighten the lap strap really tight...I had way too much of an air gap under my tush! Thus not full forward and hard to get full rudder.

Then I was late to pick up my Wife so had to come down.

So more testing to come but it WILL spin inverted thats for sure!

Kind or weired hanging upside down waiting for the stall buffet...:)
 
Sounds great Frank. You were talking about doing that last time I saw you at the shop. Must have been a rush.:D
 
automatic inverted spin reversion

Pretty awesome design that reverts to upright flight on its own.
Tom Navar
RV-8Q
Pitts S2A
 
Well Frank, you've got more hair on your bum than I do for trying an inverted spin!

One question...are you flying the original RV-8 rudder on your -7A, or do you have the larger -9 rudder?

Dave
 
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I guess

Pretty awesome design that reverts to upright flight on its own.
Tom Navar
RV-8Q
Pitts S2A


Either that or I screwed up somehow..:)..In looking at the video it looks like maybe I didn't have it fully stalled and as it pointed nose down it sort of half looped and rolled itself out.

But I agree that its definately docile in this (upside down)mode.

Frank
 
Well Frank, you've got more hair on your bum than I do for trying an inverted spin!

One question...are you flying the original RV-8 rudder on your -7A, or do you have the larger -9 rudder?

Dave

I think its the larger rudder...it looks too big for the airplane to my eyes.

As to hair on the bum...its amazing how much having a camera pointed at makes you not want to appear whimpy....:)

And no I'm not posting it on You tube...as I know I can do better...:)...
 
Has anyone tried the Beggs-Mueller emergency spin recovery technique in an RV? Does it work?

Cheers,
Matt
 
Describe it

And I'll try it.....My Rv spins in a pretty docile manner. I would bet just letting go and it will recover itself.

Frank
 
And I'll try it.....My Rv spins in a pretty docile manner. I would bet just letting go and it will recover itself.

Frank

I had to look and found a video here: http://www.fightercombat.com/vid_14Sep04.htm

I must be missing something because, aside from the fact that you start by entering a flat accelerated spin, the recovery is similar (or identical) to what I've done on the Grove (PARE).

P = power idle
A = aileron neutral
R = rudder opposite the spin
E = elevetor up
 
And I'll try it.....My Rv spins in a pretty docile manner. I would bet just letting go and it will recover itself.

Frank

Its basically this:-

Power Off
Hands Off the stick
Apply Opposite Rudder

Some aircraft will not always recover using this techinque, however it is proven to work in Pitss specials (Gene Beggs wrote a book - Spins in the Pitts Special) that described this technique.

Cheers,
Matt
 
Ya it is....:)

Congrats Frank! Sounds like a blast!


Its a bit like you've been to the "forbidden land" got your certificate of completion...And now its not forbidden anymore...:)

Of course the last two days have been beautiful WX and I'm stuck with other committments!

Can't wait to really nail it...:)

Thanks for the encouragement Bryan!


Frank
 
Interesting

Its basically this:-

Power Off
Hands Off the stick
Apply Opposite Rudder

Some aircraft will not always recover using this techinque, however it is proven to work in Pitss specials (Gene Beggs wrote a book - Spins in the Pitts Special) that described this technique.

Cheers,
Matt

I guess I tend to think with my feet during spins...I.e stop the rotation first before breaking the stall..But I bet the RV will fly right out doing this...It really just doens't like to spin that much...At least mine doesn't.

They only way I get an upright spin to rotate with any speed is full opposite aileron...Thats seems to annoy it sufficiently...:)


Frank
 
My time would probably be equally well spent googleing this, but I don't really know anything about inverted spins. What is the standard procedure by which one would get into and out of one? More importantly, when would you be in danger of accidentally getting into an inverted spin?

Paul
RV-7 (almost done)
 
My time would probably be equally well spent googleing this, but I don't really know anything about inverted spins. What is the standard procedure by which one would get into and out of one? More importantly, when would you be in danger of accidentally getting into an inverted spin?

Paul
RV-7 (almost done)

No different than upright spin, except you're pulling the stick back to reduce angle of attack, instead of pushing. Inverted spin entry is a little more disconcerting since perceived roll is opposite the direction of yaw. As long as you look straight over the nose and note the direction of yaw, you'll make the correct rudder input. BTW, an inverted spin in most (non-inverted system) RV's is a very peaceful experience...no engine noise!!:) Unless you're attempting advanced aerobatics, it's extremely unlikely you'd ever get anywhere close to a true inverted spin (not spinning at the top of a loop). You gotta induce yaw while stalling at negative angle of attack. Not a situation most non-inverted RV's doing whifferdills will ever encounter. Get a little spin training in a Pitts and dispel the myths, mystery, and lore associated with inverted spins.
 
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More importantly, when would you be in danger of accidentally getting into an inverted spin?

Paul
RV-7 (almost done)

imho... with just enough knowledge to be dangerous... top of a loop, immelmann, hammerhead, etc

and to re-emphasize the point that you verify the power's at idle for recovery
 
You gotta try pretty hard

Even my incipient spin pretty much recovered itself.

Bet way to get into one?..The method shown to me was to do a slow half loop to inverted and as you come over the top push all the way forward and pull the power to idle..Hold it there till you get a good stall buffet and bury the rudder.

If you don't have the stick full on the forward stop (not an easy thing to do) it will be hard to keep it in the spin...At least that has been my one and only experience so far.

There will be many more though...:)

Frank
 
imho... with just enough knowledge to be dangerous... top of a loop, immelmann, hammerhead, etc

and to re-emphasize the point that you verify the power's at idle for recovery

Not sure about a loop or immelman getting you into an inverted spin because you would (hopefully) be applying pitch in the direction of the earth, thereby unloading the wings. If you pushed forward at the top of the loop and stalled, then I could see it happen. But, I could be wrong. :rolleyes:

Hammerhead? Maybe if you allowed it to turn into a tail slide.
 
Not sure about a loop or immelman getting you into an inverted spin because you would (hopefully) be applying pitch in the direction of the earth, thereby unloading the wings. If you pushed forward at the top of the loop and stalled, then I could see it happen. But, I could be wrong. :rolleyes:

Hammerhead? Maybe if you allowed it to turn into a tail slide.

First, depending on the aircraft and your speed you could be applying elevator/pitch opposite to the ground to help the plane float over the top and produce a nice round loop. Keep in mind, you are slow on airspeed at the top of a loop and the plane wants to fall out of the sky. You are most definately relaxing the elevator or you end up with an egg, not a loop.

Hammerhead, yes! It is very common for a botched hammerhead to develop into an inverted spin. You are at full power, applying aileron in one direction (to counteract torque and to compensate for the outside wing traveling faster through the air), and applying full rudder in the opposite direction to the ailerons. Don't apply enough aileron and kick too soon and you will often find yourself on your back, no tail-slide is needed.

In my experience, the immediate reduction of power has always helped the most when I have encountered an incipient spin, but that has been in high power / high torque aircraft where power setting plays a big part in the equation, so YMMV. FYI, I have never spun an RV, but I am looking for to the day I do.
 
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A few more thoughts...

Frank - REALLY looking forward to some video! :D:p

For those unfamiliar with spins (and for those that are), there is a GREAT book on the subject of stalls and spins and I would encourage everyone to get their hands on a copy. It's "Stalls, Spins & Safety" by Sammy Mason. It is out of print, but you can usually find copies on eBay or Half.com for just a couple of bucks. IMHO, It's a must have for any aviation library.
 
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Naah

Not sure about a loop or immelman getting you into an inverted spin because you would (hopefully) be applying pitch in the direction of the earth, thereby unloading the wings. If you pushed forward at the top of the loop and stalled, then I could see it happen. But, I could be wrong. :rolleyes:

Hammerhead? Maybe if you allowed it to turn into a tail slide.

If it tail slides (not that I have ever inadvertantly let it tail slide..Cough!)...it will just end up pointy end straight down eventually....no way will it spin...So a friend told me once that I since chastised and disowned...:)

Frank
 
Not sure about a loop or immelman getting you into an inverted spin because you would (hopefully) be applying pitch in the direction of the earth, thereby unloading the wings. If you pushed forward at the top of the loop and stalled, then I could see it happen. But, I could be wrong. :rolleyes:

Hammerhead? Maybe if you allowed it to turn into a tail slide.


Sonny,

I prefaced it with "imho"- trust me, if something can go wrong, I can generally make it happen... ;)
 
Video

A few more thoughts...

Frank - REALLY looking forward to some video! :D:p

.

Oh its coming!

I was just watching it again on my little camcorder...:)

Unfortunately my company supplied laptop is way too whimpy to run the video software I bought...So I have done the only fiscally responsible thing I could.....I.e ordered a beast of computer so there is no way I'm not going to be able to share my experiences with my RV buddies...i mean this is a matter of grave importance and its essential we all get to see my screw ups...I mean my finely honed aerobatic skills first hand..

Thats what I told the Missus anyway..:)

Frank
 
Books are great, but inverted spinning is SO disorienting the first few times you do it I would strongly recommend good quality training. The basics are the same as up right spinning, but its different - not least because you have to pull very gently on the recovery as your g tolerance is low following a period inverted.

Most aircraft tend to recover more quickly from an inverted spin as there is more rudder area not blanked by the HS & elevator than in a regular spin. While I was learning my favourite way into an inv spin was from a badly flown roll off a half loop, too slow, too much rudder and whack ... spinning. Disorientating first time - with instructor laughing his socks off - but then we occasionally did it for fun!

Pete
 
Hammerhead, yes! It is very common for a botched hammerhead to develop into an inverted spin. You are at full power, applying aileron in one direction (to counteract torque and to compensate for the outside wing traveling faster through the air), and applying full rudder in the opposite direction to the ailerons. Don't apply enough aileron and kick too soon and you will often find yourself on your back, no tail-slide is needed.

.

I must try this!...Its fell over on its back several times when i forgot to apply the opposite aileron (about half aileron seems to be a bout right to stop the RV torquing off) but never (at least so far) felt it trying to spin.

I think my 7 at least is remarkably spin resistant...Would be an interesting way to see if i could provoke it though, I guess it would need full forward on the stick as it went onto its back...

Wow thats a lot going there...:)

Needless to say this stuff is NOT to be tried without training!!!!

Frank
 
I know

Disorientating first time - with instructor laughing his socks off - but then we occasionally did it for fun!

Pete

I think that was the one manouver from which I came down and the cheesy grin just would NOT go away...:)

And yes I remember Steve Wolf saying (while we were inv spinning mind you)..."Isn't this FUN?"...I think we'd had about 7 hours flying together at this point and he let me try the first one of everything....I mean he had no idea if I was going to freak out or do something bad and he's having a grand old time over there...

A superb instructor for sure..Not sure i would hve trusted me like he did!..:)
 
Books are great, but inverted spinning is SO disorienting the first few times you do it I would strongly recommend good quality training.
Pete, good point and I completely agree. I didn't mean to imply that a book is in any way shape or form a replacement for the proper training. That being said, there are many people who have never done an inverted spin, or upright for that matter, and do not intend to. They (books) can be good place to start to gain a better understanding of stall/spin dynamics, and so that you know what not to do (to avoid a spin in the first place).
 
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Aerobatic instruction

Frank: Thanks for encouraging those who want to taste the wonderful world of aerobatics to take formal instruction. Steve Wolf is also my instructor, and I have learned a great deal from him. The RV community should know that the International Aerobatic Club is welcoming RV'rs into their ranks. The Houston chapter will include an RV primary event on its next competition, and will see such notables as Debby Rhin-Harvey, recently inducted into the IAC hall of fame. Check them out on the IAC website.
Tom Navar
RV8 QB
Pitts S2A
 
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