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Thoughts: riskiness at OSH

hevansrv7a

Well Known Member
I have flown in to OSH perhaps ten times over the 25+ years I've been going. This time was the first in my RV. I will probably do it again. I thought I'd share some thoughts about it, start a gentle dialogue, perhaps. Many of you are more expert pilots and have done this many more times.

Pilots are called on to do things they don't normally do in ways they don't normally do them. That is inherently riskier than everyday flying.


  1. The whole RIPON merge, follow the leader and the tracks and don't talk back thing is much different than normal flying anywhere else I've seen. Sun-n-Fun comes close, though.

  2. Walk and chew gum - you have to land the plane precisely, sometimes on the colored dot, while checking for the guy in front of you and perhaps worrying about the one behind you. "Low wing on downwind start your descent now and don't fly past the tower!"

  3. Often the guy in front is flying slower and this creates some unpleasant choices. I once semi-stalled a Cheetah on very short final to 27 because a 150 cut me off. I rolled left, landed on 18 and got chewed out. The Cheetah had stall strips for maintaining control into the stall and I'm glad it did. I've heard that others are having similar issues. I heard a lot on Fiske approach about "go back and start over instead of S turns".

  4. Because of the unusual pattern and being rushed or crowded or both, it's an invitation to a stall-spin close to the ground. Experienced pilots have come to grief this way. Turning downwind to base to final very tight and low is a good skill to have ahead of time. But doing that at your home airport can be risky unless there is nobody else around. They are not expecting it.

  5. At least this time, Fiske Approach was changing the runway every couple of minutes which means it was extra busy-ness trying to get the radio set up in advance.

  6. I'll bet I'm not the only one who was flying his airplane much heavier than usual. Handling characteristics at critical points in the landing are therefore more of an issue. I find my Lift Reserve Indicator a really important instrument under these conditions, but most aircraft don't have AOA's.

  7. Fatigue and fuel status should not be issues if there is good planning. OK, but I'll bet they often are issues. Bouncy air (common) adds to fatigue and makes the unusual flying even more stressful.
  8. I've often seen simultaneous side-by-side take-off runs (though not today). It's pretty scary doing that without practice or knowing what the other guy will do. And then you have to fly at 500' AGL for 5 s.m. Two years ago I was next to the factory RV-10 in my C-150, so it was easy because we were only adjacent for about one second!
What do you think? What if anything might be done to reduce the risk?
 
One way to reduce the risk is to fly in with a large formation. They shut the place down for our 35-ship arrival... :rolleyes: Last year we flew in with a 16-ship formation, also led by Falcon. Both times it was trivial (thanks to Falcon's prior coordination).

You might argue that formation flying adds risk, and you're certainly entitled to that thought. I feel MUCH safer arriving in the large formation than I would having to merge with VFR knuckleheads (I know, they're not all knuckleheads).
 
I have flown my RV to Oshkosh 9 of the last 10 years. I have landed on just about every runway as single ship and have arrived in large and small formations.

If you do not know your airplane and cannot fly it very well within its flight envelope, you should not be flying into Oshkosh for AirVenture. An RV flys very well and is controllable at well under 90 KIAS even without AOA.

You should be able to precisly land the airplane on any spot without needing to talk on the radio.

I once got behind a ULTRALIGHT in the 90 Kt entry pattern past Rippon. He should not have been there and was told so by the controllers. I did not like going 60 KIAS behind him so broke out to the west and re-entered.

I have been told by Fisk to use runway 27 and on downwind told by the contoller to turn right now to land on Runway 18R and contact tower on a different frequency. I turned, flew the airplane, changed frequency, flew the airplane, was told by tower to maintain altitude and land on the dot past the tower. I did as told.

On one arrival to runway 27, I had the controller tell me I was too high and to land on the "do not remember the color" dot and exit the runway to the left as quickly as possible. I pulled power, touched down on the approach end of the dot and taxied off the runway just beyond the other side of the dot. Tower broadcast "Good Job RV."

I have done OSH arrival four ship formation landings on Runway 36L several times and in trial landings on 36R. Have also done 4-ship formation landings on runway 27.

Arrivals at OSH has worked very well for many years. Can it be improved? My thoughts are maybe but I do not have any ideas on how.
 
I agree with RV 6 Flyer

I agree that if you cannot fly your airplane in all configurations, land it on a spot, keep an eye out for traffic, and tune your radio, you shouldn't fly into Oshkosh, or if you do, bring a qualified pilot for the right seat to share the workload.

One thing I think the FAA could do better is to make a point in the notam to tell pilots to expect to be called something other than what your airplane is, and learn to tell when they are actually referring to you, even though you are a RV whatever instead of a whatever they called you. The controllers are usually pretty good at identifying airplanes, but not always, and it can create confusion. I flew in this year and the guy behind me in a Bearhawk was first called a red and white cessna, and then a cessna 195. I was on final for 18R. They told the "red and white cessna 195" to turn final for 18L. He thought they were talking to someone else, used 18R anyway, and flew right over the top of us at about 200' AGL, then landed long beyond us. Not a big deal, as long as he knew we were there, and I knew he was there. Point here being that you need to know your situational awareness at all times. Are you final for 18R? Are you SHORT final for 18R? Are you a red and white Bearhawk on downwind abeam the numbers but they are calling you a red and white cessna abeam the numbers? You gotta know. I think if they pointed this out in the notam, it might help get folks thinking about the situational awareness.

One thing's for sure - it's a ton of fun to fly in vs. drive!
 
Disappointed

I'm not flaming my respondents, but I'm disappointed. I was trying to point out some areas that increase the risk no matter how skilled the pilot. I was hoping to start a discussion about reducing the risk by thinking about the situation and how to modify it. What I see are various levels of chest-puffing-out. OK, I started out admitting that many are better pilots. But I am certain that many who fly to Oshkosh are not better pilots than I am and the event would be very small if they all drove or stayed home.

A typical pilot is lucky to fly 50 hours a year. Many of us in the colder climes struggle to do that. Now that I'm retired and flying my RV, I'm up to about 100-200/year and over the 30 years I've been flying I've accumulated about 900 hours and an instrument rating. This is nothing to brag about. I'm just setting the level of the issue.

A timid request, then: what would make it safer besides the obvious of being better at piloting?


 
Flybipe said:
...
One thing I think the FAA could do better is to make a point in the notam to tell pilots to expect to be called something other than what your airplane is, and learn to tell when they are actually referring to you, even though you are a RV whatever instead of a whatever they called you. The controllers are usually pretty good at identifying airplanes, but not always, and it can create confusion. I flew in this year and the guy behind me in a Bearhawk was first called a red and white cessna, and then a cessna 195. I was on final for 18R. They told the "red and white cessna 195" to turn final for 18L. He thought they were talking to someone else, used 18R anyway, and flew right over the top of us at about 200' AGL, then landed long beyond us. Not a big deal, as long as he knew we were there, and I knew he was there. Point here being that you need to know your situational awareness at all times. Are you final for 18R? Are you SHORT final for 18R? Are you a red and white Bearhawk on downwind abeam the numbers but they are calling you a red and white cessna abeam the numbers? You gotta know. I think if they pointed this out in the notam, it might help get folks thinking about the situational awareness...
I have seen this a lot, too. The wing rocking works, but not perfectly. Maybe they could say: "red and white high wing rock your wings now" and then "OK, sir, you will be called number 15 on this landing". I wonder if they could handle it? The issue arises twice in only a few minutes, once at Fiske and once as you get to where Tower can see you.
 
hevansrv7a said:
I'm not flaming my respondents, but I'm disappointed. I was trying to point out some areas that increase the risk no matter how skilled the pilot. I was hoping to start a discussion about reducing the risk by thinking about the situation and how to modify it. What I see are various levels of chest-puffing-out. OK, I started out admitting that many are better pilots. But I am certain that many who fly to Oshkosh are not better pilots than I am and the event would be very small if they all drove or stayed home.

A typical pilot is lucky to fly 50 hours a year. Many of us in the colder climes struggle to do that. Now that I'm retired and flying my RV, I'm up to about 100-200/year and over the 30 years I've been flying I've accumulated about 900 hours and an instrument rating. This is nothing to brag about. I'm just setting the level of the issue.

A timid request, then: what would make it safer besides the obvious of being better at piloting?



The physical skill of piloting is about 25% of the equation. The mental side, particularly the ability to realize that you're getting into a potentially unsafe situation and the further ability and willingness to do something about that are the other 75%.

Personally, I will not enter the arrival procedure to SnF or Osh behind a very slow airplane. I'll go away and wait 5-10 minutes. I know that I can handle the speed issue, but the guy behind me flying a Commanche may not be and at that point, he poses a threat. Also, I will not enter a holding procedure at one of the big shows. I'll depart the area and hold elsewhere or even land at a nearby strip.

But to answer your question about "What can be done to make it safer?", there isn't much. The requirement at Osh is to handle 20,000 or so light aircraft movements in a week. Even worse, there are only 8 or so hours a day when the field is open, which compresses the traffic even more. There is no way to do that using "normal" procedures, therefore there are special procedures. And those special procedures are indeed special and (paraphrasing from the NOTAM) "reduce normal safety margins".

Looking at the 3 most recent accidents that come to mind at Osh:

- The P-51 accident had nothing to do with Oshkosh or special arrival procedures. It was a formation flying accident and could have happened anywhere and to anyone doing formation landings.

- Last year's TBM/RV accident. Regardless of what airplane you're flying, the pilot must know what is and isn't in front of him. The TBM pilot lost track and someone died as a result. Again, this could have happened anywhere.

- Last year's Europa accident. Arguably the best case for being related to arrival procedures. The airplane stalled and spun on landing approach. The thing is, if you're a pilot, you can reject instructions which put you at risk. If you're flying the base to final turn dangerously close to stall speed, that isn't an arrival procedure problem. That is a pilot decision making problem. It is a heck of a lot better to go around and do the arrival all over again than to risk an accident.

In the end, if someone is uncomfortable with the arrival procedures or his/her own ability to fly safely in that environment, landing elsewhere and taking ground transportation to the show is a great option. I have several friends who prefer that approach and I certainly respect that choice.
 
I have flown ultralights, sport planes, and RV's into OSH. While it gets "busy" looking for trafic and maintaining distance, I find it a good work out and I gain good experience every time I do. "Fly the airplane." is the montra I repeat over and over in my head.

What I don't understand is why the control tower (sometimes) uses down wind runways. Friday afternoon they were using 27 with a 5 knot quartering tailwind from the ENE. Makes no sense to me, but practice your down wind landings just incase!

I think if everyone reads the NOTAM, uses good judgement, flies within the parameters of the airplane's capabilities, the flying experience is good.
 
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Practice

Geico266 said:
...practice your down wind landings...
Exactly!

Did I HAVE to make that first turn-off up at BKL last week? No, of course not, but it was good practice. Do I HAVE to aim at the 1000' bars at my home airport so that I'm slowed for a turn to A3 at just the right time? No, but it's good practice for picking my touchdown spot. I see planes every time I go to I74 for breakfast landing halfway down the runway and taxiing a mile back since they couldn't get slowed down to make any of the easy turn-offs. They are missing opportunities to practice. I do it so I'm ready when I do HAVE to do it.

Before I flew to OSH for the first time, I spend 20 minutes orbiting a local town behind another RV pilot at 90 knots. Just to practice.
 
FWIW and I agree, but also disagree, I think

Kyle Boatright said:
Personally, I will not enter the arrival procedure to SnF or Osh behind a very slow airplane. I'll go away and wait 5-10 minutes. I know that I can handle the speed issue, but the guy behind me flying a Commanche may not be and at that point, he poses a threat. Also, I will not enter a holding procedure at one of the big shows. I'll depart the area and hold elsewhere or even land at a nearby strip.

As PIC, this is not only your right, but your responsibility. I prefer to use Bartow or Winter Haven at SNF. Better parking surface, better security, better services, easier to get ground transportation and less ground congestion. But even these alternate locations are not without risks. I have landed at Winter Haven with 10 other aircraft in a "pattern" with a Cub seaplane flying across the final of the active. I have never been to Oshkosh, but when I do, I will have a safety pilot in the right seat on approach during my first visit. My comfort level addressed!

Kyle Boatright said:
But to answer your question about "What can be done to make it safer?", there isn't much. The requirement at Osh is to handle 20,000 or so light aircraft movements in a week. Even worse, there are only 8 or so hours a day when the field is open, which compresses the traffic even more. There is no way to do that using "normal" procedures, therefore there are special procedures. And those special procedures are indeed special and (paraphrasing from the NOTAM) "reduce normal safety margins".

Maybe so, but accepting a reduction in "normal safety margins" is capitulation. When an accident happens at SNF or Oshkosh, the blame is not reduced, there is no reduction in the consequential effect on the aviation community or the perception of aviation safety by the community at large and it does not reduce the impact on the affected families directly involved in these accidents. I am not slamming you for pointing this out, I just do not accept what many perceive as complacent attitudes of the FAA NOTAM or organizers of these great shows that accidents and deaths are an annual occurance at these events. As Dan pointed out, Mass approaches may be safer. Limiting arrivals to a "manageable" level is not a sinful thought. I do not confess to have any answers, but stall/spins due to pattern traffic spacing is preventable on the part of the PIC, as you pointed out and by ATC.

Kyle Boatright said:
- The P-51 accident had nothing to do with Oshkosh or special arrival procedures. It was a formation flying accident and could have happened anywhere and to anyone doing formation landings.

PREVENTABLE! Even the military has nearly abandoned this risky procedure. EAA must reevaluate this unnecessary practice and accept responsibility for allowing it to continue. I disagree that this was a formation flying accident. Sure hindsight is 20/20, but this thread would not exist if this attempt were not allowed.


Kyle Boatright said:
In the end, if someone is uncomfortable with the arrival procedures or his/her own ability to fly safely in that environment, landing elsewhere and taking ground transportation to the show is a great option. I have several friends who prefer that approach and I certainly respect that choice.

Best point of all and I agree 100%.

It is my belief that Oshkosh and SNF have grown beyond the scope of the organizers original intent. To the casual observer, it sometime appears that the EAA continues to try to one up the AOPA. Tom's father had a desire to promote homebuilt, experimental aviation. These monstrosity shows do not appear to foster that desire anymore, now catering to the big boys in "GA". I believe the EAA does many good things for the small guys, but its approach in accomplishing these tasks consumes more and more money requiring more and more funding. It does not come from the little guy at $48 annually. What we need is an independent series of LOE type regional flyins, with homebuilt vendors in attendance that revives the spirit of the early EAA Yearly flyins. I believe this will increase the lagging SNF/Oshkosh type attendance of the average homebuilder, reduce the safety issues and hopefully provide many of the answers that are sought at these mega shows. The warbirds/military/high octane performers can still be seen at other shows, but three to five strategically located LOE shows, throughout the year area, will give everyone safe, economical alternatives to the hajj to Mecca, WI or Mecca, FL.
 
Easy there

Dissapointed,

Read what the people said before you pull the trigger. I do not fly formations period but group arrivals are safer than the normal if you are in the coordinated group with exclusive access to the runway and that was suggested. Think about that a little bit as a concept. It is an expanding use process for a reason and there are some historical data that can be analyzed.

For me at least, flying into Oshkosh or Sun 'n' Fun or any other similar airport receiving lots of airplanes in a relatively short time is a scarry experience that gets my attention level torqued up to a very high peek. (4,700+ hrs, instrument rated, blah, blah,...). Getting positively identified constituting a transition into the system is a big deal. After that I know I can fly the plane to complete the flight. Perhaps something that could be done in this area to improve the transition from wanting to get in the system to being an acknowledged part of the system proceeding to landing could help. On aircraft so equiped something could probably be thought up with transponder codes to aid in this area.

Knowing your airplane and flying it according to its known limits has been mentioned. This is an area that is up to the pilot but mayby it shouldn't be. Maybe every single pilot that can maintain controled flight shouldn't be allowed to fly into Ohskosh during AirVenture. What kind of controls or screening can be applied is an uncomfortable question of imposing event specific pilot qualification limits but it needs to be considered.

Pilots must really believe that they are the final authority for what must be done for safety of flight and be ready to do what ever is necessary for safety as the situation changes.

A way to alert the controllers that you are getting into an uncomfortably slow flight condition might have saved a couple last year. Light signals perhaps.

I probably will not go back to Oshkosh which may help matters. I will leave this thread to those that will be a part of the future process. I think you have to be receptive to the inputs when you start a thread asking for them.

Bob Axsom
 
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Improvements

I have flown to Oshkosh 4 times now and two things come to mind.

ID..... coming in this time I was behind a g-tiger and in front of another RV, when asked to wiggle wings I was referred to as the Low Wing over Fisk????? All three of us wiggled our wings. How about having one or two large letters taped on the plane so you could be identified more easily? Don?t no if it would work But...

The second thing is the east west road approach to 18R, I have turned many short finals but that one takes the cake. I do not feel comfortable flying a 45 - 50 degree bank with a plane which is loaded to gross. I would bet the pink dot is no more that 300-400 hundred feet from the base line and maybe less. I watched many aircraft fly the approach after we did it and very few looked comfortable doing it. (Did it but it was on the edge of my comfort zone) Possibly moving the touch down point another 500 or more feet south would help? It?s a big runway.
 
hevansrv7a said:

[/list]What do you think? What if anything might be done to reduce the risk?


There's an old saying, aviation is hours and hours of pure boredom punctuated with moments of shear terror. Well, flying into OSH certainly is not boredom and can be interesting.

Perhaps the key is an attitude that this is my airplane, I will fly it, I will not permit it to stall, nor will I mid air with anyone, and I will hang loose. I was S turning behind a Cessna approaching Fisk and the controller said, RV you may pass the Cessna and take runway 27, Cessna fly east and take runway 36. Turning base to 27 the controller asked if I could make 18R, affirmative, wow, they switched from 36 to 18, what happened to the Cessna? I got the 18R frequency set up at about 100' and was cleared to land.

Reduce the risk? I'm not sure it was all that risky, just busy. Some guys deal with it some don't. I heard one story where a guy flew all the way to OSH from St. Louis and turned around and went home. He did not wish to deal with it as he a bad premonition. :) That's one way to deal with it.
 
What happened to the controllers?

Is it just me, or did anyone else notice the slump in controllers "sharpness" this year? When we flew the arrival, the controllers at Fisk were not using colors to identify aircraft, and they were not "on top of it" enough to be able to identify aircraft other than "high wing or low wing". Sorry, that doesn't seem good enough...come on..."high wing following the low wing"...etc.

I spent a lot of time sitting alongside the arrival runways with the handheld and listened in astonishment as the controllers were continually behind the curve, such as the arrival of the RV group, who (on multiple transmissions identified themselves as a flight of 35 aircraft) were cleared from Fon du Lac to arrive at RWY36...They had reservations to arrive and the controller appeared to know nothing about it. Then, when the 35 ship was 2 miles out from RWY36, the controller told them to hold at Fon du Lac. After a short exchange where the controller realized he'd stepped on his...trouser cuffs (and when they were on short final), the controller asked if they wanted the overhead approach...unbelievable. Everyone on the flightline knew what was going on...it was apparent the controller did not. Aircraft arriving and being cleared to land were then later chastised for landing...we watched this for days on end. There were a few controllers who had it together and were on top of their game...but many did not get it.

I think the controllers for OSH should also have to pass a knowledge test on aircraft ID before being selected. In the past, they ALWAYS used color when ID'ing aircraft at FISK and OSH...what happened this time? It seems so straightforward. Blue, yellow, red, white...hmmm.

As far as improving arrival safety, one idea may be to have an online "test" of sorts that one would have to pass before being allowed to land. Like the content of the NOTAM, where you choose your arrival type...VFR or IFR. This might reduce the frequency of stupid pilot tricks. Yeah, I know that idea is unworkable, but there are moments when IT IS unsafe out there...sadly, there were also several arrivals (AGAIN!!!) of people who had not read (or simply disregarded) the OSH NOTAM (and freely admitted it to the controllers). Arrrgh!
 
Positive ID

I like John's idea of a positive ID marker on the airplane. Next time I think I'll tape a big fluorescent dot on the belly to help know when the controller is talking to me. Maybe one one each side to help other pilots see me. A small, mostly white airplane is hard to spot in the big sky.

...Joe Lofton
 
What to do?

Practice. Doesn't matter if you flew 30 or 300 hours in the previous 12 months. Make sure you fly a dozen varied non-standard patterns in the week prior to the show. All should be short and tight, at gross.

Take responsibility. You are in charge of your flight. Expecting perfection from the controllers and the other pilots is unrealistic. If you don't like the situation that just developed, leave the system.

Eyes out. Dedicate the other person in the airplane to visual scan, or if qualified, put them in charge of panel work and radios so you can stay eyes out. "Dedicate" means serious full time effort, not sightseeing.

Avoid full holding patterns. Someone else already mentioned this one. They're right. A few airplanes isn't bad, but if it gets crazy fly away and come back later.

Now some perspectives.

A few years ago at S&F, we watched a bad boating accident while in a hold around Lake Parker. The first responders were two floatplanes who were also holding. I'm sure the boaters on Lake Parker considered us to be the risk takers, but.....

A quick glance at an NTSB page says the recent (2005 or 2006?) fatality rate for GA was 1.32 per 100,000 hours. That includes everything except 121, 135, and military ops. Consider the number a moment. If 20,000 airplanes fly an average of 5 hours each to make OSH, 1.32 people are going to die. Yeah, I know, lies, darn lies, and statistics, we can make it better, etc. However, it gives me the impression that a OSH trip isn't really much more risky than any other flight.
 
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I've flown in to OSH twice. Both times I found the hardest part to be the worrying before I actually entered the pattern over Ripon. I really thought the controllers were top notch and found the experience to be enjoyable. I'm sure it's a dangerous environment to operate in but I never felt worried once I was flying the pattern.

I really hope that the controllers are still the best of the best. I didn't get to fly in this year so I'll take your word for it. If the controllers were not as good as they were in years past then that worries me. They need to be on top of their game.

So does the pilot. Practice your slow flight, and then practice it some more.
 
High GWT and aft CG change your sweet flying airplane

Practice your slow flight. I'll add practice your slow flight at near GWT and aft CG. We often fly lightly loaded and with the CG in a mid-range or forward. We get comfortable with the stick forces, trim changes and power settings. Going to OSH you may be near GWT and more importanly near the aft CG. Your stall speed is greater, say 8 mph, and the stick forces are distinctly lighter. As you burn off fuel the CG goes aft. With power set a little low, the speed will decay a little faster than normal, easy pulls on the stick get you a lot closer to stall AOA, then add the rest...... tighter turn, distractions, slowing for the guy in front.....

Best way to practice? Perhaps just the way you are loaded on you way to OSH. No need to go crazy to scare the pax but there is also no need to to rediscover your aft CG handling qualities when you hit the OSH pattern.

Regards, John.
 
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SNIP

ID..... coming in this time I was behind a g-tiger and in front of another RV, when asked to wiggle wings I was referred to as the Low Wing over Fisk????? All three of us wiggled our wings. SNIP

I agree with John about this, and I know many pilots do not realize that several planes are wagging their wings at once. Four times to Oshkosh, and I've seen several planes wagging simultanously every time. This is a REAL weakness of the system, especially when they are sending every other plane (or so they think) to a different runway. I'm not sure what the solution is, but it certainly contributes to the spacing problems.
 
How to improve it? Easy.

Send the slow fliers who can't maintain 90 to a different approach. Every problem I've ever encountered at either OSH or SNF -- or SWRFI for that matter -- has been due to a Cub-lookalike peddling in at 55.

I love Cubs and old planes in general but I've never understood how they expect them to fly in formation with the rest of us. They need their own approach.
 
Comments on AirVenture arrival procedure

This is a great discussion, and many valid points have been posted.

I want to point out that anyone who has specific suggestions or proposals for changes in the arrival procedure or NOTAM can submit them to the FAA via the following web site:

https://secure.eaa.org/airventure/atc_feedback.html

These comments will go directly to Wanda Adelman, Air Traffic Manager for the convention.

Thanks again for all the great discussion!

Joe Norris
EAA Aviation Services
 
ATIS

I arrived on Tuesday evening after the airshow. The ATIS was not working. There was lots of chatter on the radio about it not working.

I was behind a Cessna 206. We were directed to 18L and 18R. The Cessna did not follow the prescribed arrival and flew considerably North of the gravel pit. I followed him even though if I would have followed the proper approach I would have been well inside of him. I felt it was safer to follow.

People need to prepare and follow directions.

The ATIS needs to be working and available about 30 miles out.
 
My hangar-mate owns the RV6 that was chopped up by the TBM Avenger at OSH last year. His passenger, the gentleman who was killed, was the president of our EAA chapter. As such I have a very tainted view of safety at OSH.

Every person must conduct their own risk assessment. I have conducted my own assessment and have concluded that I will, under no circumstances, fly into Oshkosh. The potential for any kind of accident increases exponentially with the density of aircraft in the area. OSH is just too many airplanes in too small a space. Your own risk assessment may produce a different result, and if so, you get to live with the risks you're willing to take. That's your choice.

One thing our EAA chapter does is hold a pre-flight briefing for OSH. We project the NOTAM up onto the screen and have a good talk about procedures, expectations, communications, etc.. And we have lots of pictures of what the variuos approaches look like from the air, as well as what you see out the window with other traffic close by. And pictures of what it looks like in REAL visibility conditions with lots of haze, etc.

This pre-OSH briefing is something that every EAA chapter should do in order to make the fly-in safer for all. It takes about 2 hours to do a really thorough briefing and get all the questions answered. That's a small investment for such a large potential gain in situational awareness and comfort level for pilots and crew.
 
TBM RV6 Accident

I wonder if EAA has ever considered assigning a volunteer ground crewman to wing walk with those big taildragger warbirds in order to preclude another TBM / RV6 type accident?

Doug Lomheim
RV9a, FWF
OK City, OK
 
Arrival yes, Departure no?

dlomheim said:
I wonder if EAA has ever considered assigning a volunteer ground crewman to wing walk with those big taildragger warbirds in order to preclude another TBM / RV6 type accident?

Doug Lomheim
RV9a, FWF
OK City, OK
On arrival, each of us had our own usher on a scooter, but on departure it was very much less organized. I think the TBM/RV6 accident was on departure.?
 
I wonder if EAA has ever considered assigning a volunteer ground crewman to wing walk with those big taildragger warbirds in order to preclude another TBM / RV6 type accident?
Short answer- yes, it was considered, but not implemented for a number of reasons.

Slightly longer answer- there are a number of insurmountable logistic problems, namely not enough bodies and not enough vehicles to make this work. Then there is the reality that, even with an escort, this kind of accident could happen if a pilot is head-down and not paying attention (which happens way too often.)

As for the scooter escorts on arrival vs. departure- all RVs are escorted to and from Area 51 (RV parking) or the homebuilt campgrounds. The intersection of taxiway Papa and Papa-1 (where the Trimotor rides are) is the "gate" into RV land. Once past this intersection you are escorted to and from. On departure, once you are past that intersection, you get into the conga line heading south on Papa towards 18 or 36. This is the area where the accident occurred.
 
non-standard patterns

Talk about non-standard, Fisk told us to do the 36 arrival.
When we got there no one cleared us for 36L or 36R.
There was a plane coming head-on on right base for 36R
so I turned for 36L. There were multiple aircraft taking off
on 36L so I went right down the middle of the runways adjusting
speed to avoid a midair with departing aircraft on 36L that were
turning east in front of me. Finally when I was abeam the tower
they saw me and told me to go around for 36R. Then as I was on right
downwind for 36R there was a War Bird Fly Over from the south to north.
Finally I landed on 36R and was told to keep my speed up till the end of the runway. My 7A looked like a tail dragger with the nose up for about
2 miles. I must say I did a lot of non-standards landing that day.
I think they really need to plan ahead for the fly-overs if they take place while all the runways are in use.
 
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