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Would RV pilots make good fighter pilot recruits?

OldAndBold

Well Known Member
I got to watching the following video on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij1qWr99qLE

and got to wondering: what if there were no age restrictions on who the Air Force and Navy hired to be fighter pilots - would our RV crowd be a good source of recruits?

Consider:

1) Many are engineers
2) Lots of maturity and good flying judgement
3) Lots of flying experience - many are commercial and airline pilots, some are instructors
4) Patriotism built right in - look at all the red, white and blue RVs out there
5) By nature intrigued by airplane construction
6) all end up being test pilots of a sort
7) many are skilled at aerobatics and formation flight

I mean, who would you want flying for our country? Tom Cruise with 300-400 flight hours or one of the old geezers with 15,000?

???
 
NO

OldAndBold said:
I got to watching the following video on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij1qWr99qLE

and got to wondering: what if there were no age restrictions on who the Air Force and Navy hired to be fighter pilots - would our RV crowd be a good source of recruits?

???

Errr.I don't think so.
I guess that the Walter Mitty in us says "Yes" but the reality of the situation is a lot different. I've seen it in Ag flying. When a guy passes forty or so, the chance of him becoming a successful ag pilot are slim. A man in his 20's has a fire in his belly that starts turning into more of a hot coals scenario later. Their eyesight, coordination and bravado take them there. A very small percentage of the original recruits ever make it into the F-15's and the like. Most end up as either tanker drivers or something similar.

Regards,
 
YES!!
I built my -9 light, so mount a gun under each wing, a bomb on the belly, and point me towards the enemy lines. Let's git er done!
 
Maybe

At 41, I'd imagine I would be like Cougar in Top Gun - looking at the picture of my wife realizing I'd lost my 'edge'.

There are days, however, I'd say 'Yes' <g>.

b,dr
 
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Fun fantasy. :D

Unfortunately, the reality is that the most experienced "recruit" in my class was a CFII with thousands of hours in instruction and freight dogging. He was the bottom half of the class in T-37s and washed out of T-38s. Experience in one world means next to nothing in the other - and that goes both ways. I wouldn't fly in a 60HP T-Craft with the top student in my class.
 
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There go I, but for the myopia..... You military folks enjoy your fortune. If I were there, I'd be on your tail.

Too bad PRK didn't come along 20 yrs ago.
 
Edge?

DeltaRomeo said:
At 41, I'd imagine I would be like Cougar in Top Gun - looking at the picture of my wife realizing I'd lost my 'edge'.

There are days, however, I'd say 'Yes' <g>.

b,dr

So what is "edge"?

(BTW, no, I don't think *I* am fighter pilot material. I wish I were an A-10 pilot, but I am really just asking the question for fun.)

But what is edge? The willingness to take dangerous risks someone older than 25 wouldn't take?
 
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pierre smith said:
Errr.I don't think so . . . When a guy passes forty or so, the chance of him becoming a successful ag pilot are slim. . . .
Regards,

Yes, Pierre but how many 40+ people wake up one morning and say, "Gee, I am going to try and be an Ag pilot!" ?
 
Several

Hi John,
Several that I know of. The first one had just retired from the Army at 40 and we sold him an airplane....a Cessna Agtruck. One week later he put it on it's back landing on his short home-based strip. We had advised him to learn the airplane at the nearby paved airport with long runways......but Nooooo :eek:

You can lead a horse to drink but you can't make him water...or something like that :D

Bys,
 
Brian130 said:
. . .Unfortunately, the reality is that the most experienced "recruit" in my class was a CFII with thousands of hours in instruction and freight dogging. He was the bottom half of the class in T-37s and washed out of T-38s . . .

But why did he wash out? Lack of skill or unable to accept instruction or something else?

--John Babrick
 
Bulletproof.

Well,
At 18 I thought I was bulletproof. At 41 I don't :D . That's loosing the edge in my book.
b,dr
 
I'm soo depressed

But sadly at 45 I was AMAZED how long it took me to learn to fly IFR....Even my 12 year old instructor was rolling his eyes for at least 20 hours....

...Yup it takes longer and there are things I used to do that there is no way now.....:(

Frank
 
Interesting that the thread has turned to ag planes. I was at the airport yesterday packing up my -9 for SNF. There was an ag plane spraying the adjacent fields. I couldn't help but watch it on every pass as it pulled up into a near 90 degree bank then back down the field in the opposite direction. Really beautiful and I thought to myself that I would love to ride along if I ever had the chance.
Are they single seaters?
 
RV Pilot: "Are YOU an AG pilot?"

AG Pilot: "Don't ask a man if he is an Ag pilot! If he is, he will let you know. If he isn't ... don't embarrass him."

RV Pilot: "AG pilots make movies. RV pilots make AIRPLANES!"

:D
 
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Mostly

bsacks05 said:
Interesting that the thread has turned to ag planes. I was at the airport yesterday packing up my -9 for SNF. There was an ag plane spraying the adjacent fields.
Are they single seaters?

There are a few two-seaters used to mainly teach turbine transition and our Satloc GPS systems that guide us to one foot accuracy :eek: . After each pass we click the "swath advance" button on the stick and it moves us over seventy feet for the next pass (or whatever distance we program the system to cover). These systems have a differentially corrected signal that used to cost us $800 a year for this kinda accuracy but now the WAAS enabled units don't charge for it. Hard to believe that we fly by a lightbar on the cowl that guides as laterally to one foot!! We can then download the work to our PC and show the farmer on paper all the passes we made and acres counted to .01 of an acre as well.

my.php
[/URL][/IMG]

Note how small the RV is in the right background.

We've come a long way, Baby,
 
OldAndBold said:
But why did he wash out? Lack of skill or unable to accept instruction or something else?
He ultimately washed out for cheating.

But he was in the bottom half of the class because the initial learning curve was too steep for him (consequently, that's the same thing that led him to cheat - too much material to learn). The pace at which new material and maneuvers are introduced is very quick in the first flying phase. You get X number of rides to figure it out, whether it is acro or instrument or formation or the pattern. Hopefully you do. The GA world doesn't have those type deadlines.

Conversely, flying GA has its own challenges. Nobody tells you if the weather is unsafe, nobody tells you how much gas you need, nobody makes sure the maintenance is done correctly. You don't have the tools (radar, powerful engines, extra eyes) to help keep you out of trouble. You're much more autonomous than even the most autonomous military pilot will ever be.

Stick and rudder skills transfer more or less, but those are a very small portion of the overall pilot package. The rest of the skills needed are unique to each world. But that's just the way I see it.
 
Brian130 said:
He ultimately washed out for cheating . . .

OK, perhaps I posed the wrong sort of question. Suppose you had a Nancy Lynn or a Patty Wagstaff or, say even some of the other high time high skill airline pilots here wanted to serve as a fighter pilot. Obvious airmanship skills and knowledge. Only thing they don't have is the specific jet and air combat training. Assuming adequate physical condition, would a 22 year old ensign or lieutenant still be a better choice?

???


JCB
 
OldAndBold said:
OK, perhaps I posed the wrong sort of question. Suppose you had a Nancy Lynn or a Patty Wagstaff or, say even some of the other high time high skill airline pilots here wanted to serve as a fighter pilot. Obvious airmanship skills and knowledge. Only thing they don't have is the specific jet and air combat training. Assuming adequate physical condition, would a 22 year old ensign or lieutenant still be a better choice?
Airmanship is an asset to any pilot. And Patty Wagstaff obviously has lots of that.

I guess my point is there is no guarantee that a great airshow or airline pilot will make a great military pilot - fighter or otherwise. Starting out flying the pattern, of course they'd have a huge leg up on their peers. But the playing field quickly levels and they could be surpassed by leaps and bounds. Military flying training is intended to take Joe Blow off the street and mold them how they want them. Previous experience or habits that have to be unlearned can just as easily be a detriment as a help. I know it sounds ludicrous, but it's just too different to draw any direct connections between the Greats in each genre.
 
OK, we had been discussing fighters. Suppose you have two 737s to be flown - one for Southwest and one for the Navy (the P-8A fomerly known as MMA). Southwest is obviously going to want pilots with mega flight hours and all of the training already completed. Why would the Navy still prefer the other style?

--JCB
 
They get to train them how they want to train them. The law of primacy works in their favor instead of against them. And if you hire a 40 year old civilian pilot, you don't get 20 years of service out of him. The DoD does hire civilian guys, though, as long as they're young enough. A Continental FO was in my advanced class.

edit: Also, there's more to being a military officer than just flying. Unfortunately, as you age, flying is less and less significant. The services get to train the newbie as a whole person to be the officer they want, not just a pilot.
 
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Can't get 20 years out of a 35 year old 737 Captain? Don't we have a big controversy going about mandatory retirement ages?

I guess I have never understood the whole military mindset (an probably explains why I wouldn't have made it in the military). Would you be saying then that a 40 something professional pilot or highly experienced GA pilot cannot conform him/herself to military standards and expectations? Keep in mind that until quite recently the military was certain that women were unable to be fighter pilots. I would think that in my case I would be much more able now at 47 to do what I am told than I was when I was a 22 year old....
 
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OldAndBold said:
Can't get 20 years out of a 35 year old 737 Captain? Don't we have a big controversy going about mandatory retirement ages?

I guess I have never understood the whole military mindset (an probably explains why I wouldn't have made it in the military). Would you be saying then that a 40 something professional pilot or highly experienced GA pilot cannot conform him/herself to military standards and expectations? I would think that in my case I would be much more able now at 47 to do what I am told than I was when I was a 22 year old....
Maybe there shouldn't be maximum age limits. I don't think you would like to take orders from me though when you're my copilot and I have 5% of your total time.

To get this back on track... your original question. Would an RV pilot make it as a fighter pilot? My answer is that there is no correlation.
 
Less and less about airmanship

FWIW, the F-22 and F-35 pilots claim that the new jets are almost like flying a C-150 because of computer aided input. The biggest challenge they say is data fusion, or the ability to process the enormous volume of situational information available with modern cockpits. I suggest you play a modern video game against a teenager to determine your ability to be effective in a modern-day warfare engagement. I know I get very humbled against my 17 year old.
 
WSBuilder said:
... I suggest you play a modern video game against a teenager to determine your ability to be effective in a modern-day warfare engagement. I know I get very humbled against my 17 year old.

I used to be that 17 year old video gamer. I don't believe my skills have changed over the years, only now I don't find video games to be worth the time. I'd rather be doing the real thing in an RV.
 
A friend of mine with lots of jet time got assigned to an F-101 squadron a long time ago. He told me they gave him the assignment when he was 35 years old and that he never got to feel like he was really comfortable with it. He said that he was too old and had gone past that point and would have been just as happy if they had posted him to the Arctic to fly Twin Otters
 
While I don't fly for the USMC, I work with our pilots every day. I can't speak to the other services, but if all you want to do is fly, the military is probably not the best place for you. When our pilots aren't flying they're the Maintenance Officer or Airframes Officer or Operations Officer, etc. There's a whole lot more to being a pilot in the military than flying, and not every job that gets filled by a pilot involves sitting in an aircraft. A friend of mine who flies F-18's is sitting in Quatar doing mission planning and won't see a cockpit for at least a year. Another friend is doing a tour in Iraq as a Forward Air Controller (think infantry).

Back to the question of whether an RV pilot would make a good military pilot: I have another friend who flies C-130's for the Air Force. He did his initial flight training with the Navy at Pensacola. When he reported back to the AF to finish he said he felt like he had to learn everything all over again. The stick and rudder was the same, but procedures were completely different. Maybe anecdotal, but I think RV pilots would have the same challenge to overcome.

PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
 
Brian130 said:
. . . I don't think you would like to take orders from me though when you're my copilot and I have 5% of your total time . . .

No, actually, I am pretty sure I can take orders from my assigned commander. A simple professionalism required in any number of everyday work settings. Are you up to commanding someone you know has more ability in some area? Again, simple professionalism enables people to do this.

But I see where you are going with this. The military is just not set up to do what I am asking about - to use a high experience older civilian pilot - so that my original question is sort of irrelevant. Just seems to me that there is nothing I could have learned at 22 that I can't learn now. If anything, I am more able to learn now than then.
 
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BUF ain't a fighter, but...

OldAndBold said:
I used to be that 17 year old video gamer. I don't believe my skills have changed over the years, only now I don't find video games to be worth the time. I'd rather be doing the real thing in an RV.
You sound like you are not at a loss for self confidence, a big component for a fighter pilot. Go for it!
My closest personal experience was about 10 years ago, age 41. I had about 1000 hours in GA aircraft, including about two dozen hours in King Air 200's and a Citation. Brother-in-law was a corporate pilot. I was OK on an ILS in them despite my little time in type. I was Sierra Hotel. Then I got to fly a B-52 simulator at Barksdale AFB with a sqdn cmdr cousin. I crashed three out of three approaches and couldn't get within a 1/4 mile on tanker hook up. The colonel told me I was about on par with "the nuggets", the kids coming out of advanced basic with about 100 hours.
There's still a world of difference between being a flyer and a fighter.
 
RV drivers as Fighter Pilots

I think I can weigh in on an old guy flying a fighter. At the ripe young age of 54 I had the good fortune of getting a flight in the back seat of an F-16 just prior to my retirement from the Air Force Reserves a few months ago. Let's just say my body hurt the rest of the day and my stomach wasn't at it's best either. I wouldn't trade the experience for anything but there's a reason those guys are lot younger than most of us! Their "G" warmup was at our "G" limit and it seemed to go on forever.
He let me loop it, just hit 450 knots and pull 5 Gs, he says. I wish I had looked at the altimeter to see how much altitude I took up!

Steve Hamer
RV-4 flying
RV-6 almost done
 
<<Would an RV pilot make it as a fighter pilot?>>

Awww, heck yes! I've already sent my letter to the President. He sent some FAA guys to check me out. I told 'em I didn't know what they were talking about but everything is cool; after examining my logbook I know they gave me a good report. When the aliens show up (and they will), I'm gonna be first in line to fly the captured flying saucer alien fighter thing and blow up the mothership.

Gotta get me one of them things <g>
 
Brian130 said:
I guess my point is there is no guarantee that a great airshow or airline pilot will make a great military pilot - fighter or otherwise.

Good point Brian. I learned after I got to the fleet that the guys with the great grades did not necessarly continue to shine. Military flight school is about drinking from a fire hose. A guy who checks into the Hornet RAG in my day had about 300 hours of total time. First time at the ship, 120 hours ... and you're solo.

In my experience, guys with NO prior flight time usually did better at the boat then prior time guy. The prior time guys who went to props (Navy) kept ahead of the pack, but in the Jet Pipeline it's pretty much control-alt-delete.

Once you got to the fleet, is where you really have the license to learn. Which is what squaron flying is all about, getting the "X" so you can get the next qual, those with the most quals, get the most flight time.

Oh and don't forget, the average tactical jet guy is only getting between 15 and 20 hrs per month unless there is a war going on. In daily squadron life, sadly flying is not the primary duty (at least in Naval Aviation). You feel pretty cool when they put your name on the canopy rail .... then you remember you have to conduct a unit sweep urinalysus :mad:

At 22 my motto was "Not tonight Baby, I have to fly" and "Don't let her hear you whistle while you pack". By the time I was 30, like most young hard chargers, I'd had enough of the deployments, wouldn't trade a minute, but it's a young man's game!
 
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My nephew is an F-18 pilot with two tours of Iraq so far flying off the USS Teddy Roosevelt. He did his Christmas cards a year ago, while flying back from a mission. Just put it on autopilot, I guess, and start writing, licking and stamping.

So I tell him I guess anybody can fly the darned thing.

Here's what it takes to be a military pilot:

1) You don't mind leaving your wife for 6 months at a time.
2) You don't mind missing your little baby growing up.

Seriously, the sacrifices these guys -- and women, of course -- make is unfreakin' believable, in my opinion.

But that's nothing compared to the sacrifices the wives and kids make.

I think anyone can be taught to fly, although as I age I realize it really is a young man's game.

But I see firsthand there's a lot more to being a military pilot than flying.

I sure couldn't do it. I missed by son's 5th birthday when I moved out to Minnesota to take a new job and I still kick myself for it.
 
Still goin' after all these years...

"Here's what it takes to be a military pilot:

1) You don't mind leaving your wife for 6 months at a time.
2) You don't mind missing your little baby growing up."


I realize this quote was written toungue in cheek but trust me, most of us military guys HATE being away from our wives and kids 6 months at a time (or longer) and really REALLY miss watching our baby(s) grow up.

My personal experience was missing the first four birthdays of my only child, then missing the last three out of five Christmas's and finally, getting the call, while in Afghanistan on a four month deployment four years ago, that my only child had been killed in a car crash while I was half way around the world. This is the reality of being a fighter pilot! It's not all Maverick, Goose and Top Gun!

I started flying military jets at 23 and was lucky enough to get fighters. I have been actively flying pointy jets in the military now for 23 years and in fact flew two sorties in a supersonic two seater today. I've amassed 4,000 military hours, an hour at a time generally, and have over 1200 hours as an instructor in fighter type aircraft. So, what does it take? Could an old dude, my age now, make a new transition into fighter flying and be an asset to his squadron?????

NO!

As someone mentioned in an earlier post, flying fighters hurts, in fact quite a lot depending on the mission flown. Last year I flew an F-16 sortie, like my Bro Smokey flies, and it was a Basic Fighter Maneuver (dog fight) sortie and most turns were 9 Gs X seven engagements. Today I flew an advanced maneuver sortie and most maneuvers were at or above 5-6 Gs. Now when I say Gs, it is not like at airshows where Sean Tucker does a 10 G instantaneous turn or Mike Guilian does a 8 G bump, but rather these are sustained for 30 seconds or longer, where blood capillaries are bursting and you land daily with blood blisters, or 'measles' because your body is saying OUCH! Where you ar at a constant threat of passing out from blood rushing out of your brain. But with modern fighters, this is day to day stuff. If you would check your local veteran cemetary, you will see an alarming amount of former fighter pilots dying in there 50's and 60's because this business is hard on your body. At my current age, before I strap in I literally do some stretching excerises by the jet, and yes, my young LTs laughs but so what, I don't want to end up like some of my buds with fuzed vertebrae in their neck and backs and off flying status, at least not in fighters. And I'm smarter when I move my head under G now, and use other forms of trickery instead of just brute 23 year old force!

Besides the punishing physical aspect of fighters, the biggest hindrance I would see with an experienced civilian pilot transition to military flying has also been alluded to. Once you are a 'licensed' pilot, you get the IT'S GOOD ENOUGH syndrome, or the TLAR-That's about right- attitude. When you're flying X-C, its throttle at 2500 RPM/25 in. MP and fly at what ever airspeed that gives you. And the altitude is where there are the least amount of bumps/clouds. Not so in the military. In my current jet it is either 300 KIAS or 350 KIAS in cruise, NOT 351, or 299. And the alitude MUST be spot on. And when you are doing a loop. it is 5 Gs until the proper AOA is achieved. Why? Because when you are dropping that bomb, it MUST be at a 30 degree dive angle, it MUST be at .98 G at release, and it MUST be at the exact airspeed/altitude called for or it will go long, or short and miss that **** bad guy and maybe hit the school bus full of kids you're trying to save. You MUST be exact, and all military figher flying must be exact to keep you in that mindset. Because you are flying for you life, your wingmans life, the life of those on the ground, and your country!

Ever heard the saying lose sight lose fight? It is still real, even with the modern jets. Except for maybe the first day of Beyond Visual Range war, visual ID is still real and required. The guy who can call BANDIT BANDIT BANDIT first will be the first with missiles in the air and will continue to live. If you are fumbling with your bifocals to read the Rules of Engagement, you are done.

Finally, I as a 46 year old am one of aprox four old guys in the squadron. Most my peers are either retired or doing staff jobs, usually not by choice. This is a young mans game for many reasons and only a few of us are lucky enough to carry the standard forward to these young guys who will then carry it forward with them to another batch of yung guys. Can an older guy fly a fighter, you bet. There is an outfit in Santa Fe, New Mexico that thrives on teaching these fighter pilot wannabe guys. Can a high time non-military experienced guy be an asset to our country, where each sortie, such as in my last unit, costs $24,000 an hour to fly? NO! By the time he is old the guy better be a walking encyclopedia of knowlwedge and tactics and better know how to teach it to his wingman because he is taking up sorties that could be used for training new guys, who are less afraid, easier to train, and can fight NOW and when is needed and for many years to come.

Flying fighters really has little to do with 'flying'. We expect the pilot to be able to fly in all attitudes and formations. We call that the 'motherhood' and spend maybe 10 minutes in the brief to cover all the flying areas. The meat of the mission and the majority of every brief is the employment of the fighter, whether it be bombs or bullets or missiles or search and rescue, or close are support, or counter air, deep strike, interdiction, recce, BFM, ACM, DACT, LANTIRN, LL etc. We don't have time to teach an old guy, the old guy MUST be the teacher and be able to teach or he is GONE!!!!

So, there you have it. The reason I have two RVs and a YAK is I realize the limitations of military flying and know that while I enjoy it and like teaching it and hope to do it a couple more years, when I want a smile on my face and a true relaxing, RV grin flight, hangin' out with the bro's and flying anywhere and anyway I like, it's going to happen on the weekend with a pair of jeans, tennis shoes and a T shirt on. Like you're probably doing now!

Enjoy it, it's almost like flying fighters!!!!
 
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I?m one of the few lucky former fighter pilots who still gets to pull Gs, wear Nomex, talk with my hands, and smell vaguely like Kerosene when I get home. These days, however, instead of leading a bunch of 26-year old studs into battle, I teach ?old guys? how to fly ex-military jets (L-39s, mostly).

I?m 41 and my average student is 55 years old (though I?ve taught a few who were over 65). These guys are all very accomplished in their professional lives, and they?ve reached a point where they can afford to own whatever airplanes they want. They average 2,500 hours of total flying time.

We don?t teach tactics ? the real meat of tactical military flying. Instead, we concentrate on the basics ? just flying the airplane (or -- in the case of formation flying -- pitchouts, rejoins, wing-work, echelon turns, close trail, extended trail, and formation takeoffs and landings.) The level of training they get is far, far lower than anything the military ever provided, but we try our best to provide a firm foundation and provide a tiny glimpse of what military pilot training is like. There?s no way to really replicate it, of course ? military pilot training is a mind-boggling year of nearly nonstop immersion in the business of flying airplanes. It?s not matched in many endeavors.

Even so, what we provide is very intense for most of my students. Most have never been past 60 degrees of bank before. Most have never felt 4Gs. Most have never worn a helmet before. Most have never piloted a jet aircraft. Most have never heard half the techniques and stuff we teach. When they?re done with the program, they have an FAA type rating in their pocket and are therefore safe, in the FAA?s eyes (and in my eyes, which is more important), to fly their jet solo.

I?ve found that most students with civilian-only backgrounds do very well flying the airplane. They can fly a nice ILS. Many of them can later be taught to fly basic formation pretty competently. But to think that any of them have the same skill-set or abilities that any recent graduate of Air Force SUPT with 200 flight hours possesses is simply not the case. Age DOES limit one?s ability to assimilate great amounts of information quickly, which is the primary limitation to how fast and how much I can teach. When I was flying with 23-year olds in the T-38, we could cover huge gobs of new stuff on each flight, plus hours of new material each day on the ground. It was a tough program (the ?drinking-from-a-fire-hose? effect), but most of them kept up just fine. Folks over 40 have about half the attention span and ability to retain information of my old Air Force students, and guys over 55? ? well, let?s just say that I keep hoping some big pharma company creates ?Brain Viagra.? I mean absolutely no disrespect toward anyone ? just stating the facts. No one over 50 would have the time, money or mental concentration needed to spend a year immersed in a civilian replica of Air Force or Navy flight training. Thanks goodness that?s not required in order to fly your own fighter jet. (What a great country we live in, don?t you think?)

The RV builder community, by the nature of its activities, does contain a pretty high percentage of people that would be capable of making it through military pilot training, but maybe not for the reasons you think.

It?s not necessarily because they?re engineer-types, or are more mature, or have lots of previous flying time, or are patriotic, or are already skilled at formation or aerobatics, or are ?intrigued by aircraft construction,? or any of the other criteria listed in the first post.

It?s because the RV community is made of people who see things through, and who can manage long, complicated projects. Building an airplane is similar to building a person into a military pilot. Raw materials + Time + Skilled Persuasion = A finished work of useful, enduring craftsmanship.

I?m constantly stunned at the end results of RV builders? long years of work. Sometimes, when I attend a fly-in and look at people?s airplanes, I feel like the builder equivalent of a student pilot all over again.

Constantly proud to be associated with this group,
Buck
 
At 64 the mind is still willing but I know the body ( which includes reaction time) isn't what it use to be. The answer to the original question is maybe.

My reference is a career as an F4 pilot (Air Force) with well over 300 combat missions and then years of teaching fighter tactics including Air to Air .... and yes the movie Top Gun was lots of BS. Loved the fighter world then and now have the memories and a great little RV8, life is good
 
GA vs. Military Training

Brian130 said:
Flying GA has its own challenges. Nobody tells you if the weather is unsafe, nobody tells you how much gas you need, nobody makes sure the maintenance is done correctly. You don't have the tools (radar, powerful engines, extra eyes) to help keep you out of trouble. You're much more autonomous than even the most autonomous military pilot will ever be.

Stick and rudder skills transfer more or less, but those are a very small portion of the overall pilot package. The rest of the skills needed are unique to each world. But that's just the way I see it.

FROM RDD:
I sold my RV-6A to a 2500 hour Navy trained pilot. Gave him a couple of hours duel transition training. Taught him the pre-flight using the dip the oak stick method of checking the fuel level and sent him on his way. Six days later he decided to fly out of his dad's grass strip to go get gas and crashed 10 minutes later, because he ran out of fuel. Airport he was going to go get fuel was 15 minutes away. First responders (Firefighters) were on the scene 15 minutes after crash and found no evidence of fuel. NTSB investigator was on the scene 4 hours later and found no evidence of fuel. Navy trained pilot claims he checked the fuel level but every RV nosegear pilot knows that if you opened gas cap to check the fuel level and there was no fuel visible while there still may be fuel in the tank it would not be prudent to fly without adding fuel. No propefly trained GA pilot with let somebody else manage their pre-flight fuel level in the airplane, or depend on low reading fuel gauges for fuel readout as part of the pre-flight.
 
OK, OK, Uncle, Uncle...

OK, OK, I get it. The 40 something pilot cannot be made into a military pilot, so you all say.

But let's look at a few (not all) of the reasons stated here.

1) The training comes too fast for a 40 year old to take. Oh, puh-leeze!... Well if it actually did, then slow down the training so that success can be had by whoever is being trained. Use better judgement on selecting successful applicants. (And yes, this can be done!) The military has this bizarre approach of hiring a hundred people in order to find one that will complete training. Think about the waste of that approach. It can be done better.

2) There is more to being a military pilot than flying an airplane. True. The point of this discussion was whether a high experience civilian pilot (BTW, I am not a high experience civilian pilot, so I don't count) can make a good fighter (or military) pilot. Such a transition to military lifestyle would include and require training unrelated to flying - but isn't that what something like OCS is for?

3) The military lifestyle requires great sacrifice. Yep, I'm sure it does. And I salute those in uniform. And not only would I salute them, I would be willing to go alongside and help. An "old" guy has probably gotten over that need to be the "leader" - he can take a lower position when needed and just help. When 9/11 came, a couple of engineers were sitting in a lab in Massachusetts and we looked at each other and said, "OK, give me a gun. I'll go." No one embarking on any such journey should be unaware of the sacrifices needed. But stop and think. Who is more likely to be able to look at his life and make a good decision about whether he is willing and able to make those sacrifices - a 20 year old ROTC sophomore or a 42 year old with a twenty year record of professional success ? In my case, as a former police officer I know what it is to have to put myself in harms way. It was a professional decision and I (for example) had no difficulty with taking a dangerous assignment. The military don't have a complete monopoly on the dangerous or difficult stuff.

4) The 40 something body can't take it. OK, you may have me there. But even if high experience (i.e, old) civilian pilots can't make it as fighter pilots, what about all the other flying to be done? Again, should the military be the training grounds for Southwest or should Southwest be the training grounds for the military? No extreme G forces involved in flying transports, bombers, AWACS and tankers. Just expert judgement - the sort of thing a high time (again, not me yet) pilot ought to have.

Hey, this discussion was just for fun. I am an engineer and I like to consider new possibilities. It was a slow day at work yesterday (I got to program fuel quantity filtering for the P-8A - boring! ) and I would rather spend time thinking about flying.

Have fun with it.
 
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Thank you Jetj01 and BuckWynd for the excellent post.

It was a fun ride down memory lane for me. The year of 53 weeks was total immersion into all that is flying, and was very much like drinking for a fire hose. Later, I got to hold the hose as I instructed in the T-38 for six years. What a trip! At age 23 I found it easy enough to keep up. At 53 and transitioning to the 777 from the 727, it was clear that the old gray matter was not the same as three decades before. Airline pilots that continue on to age 65 might find that their FO will be picking up more of the load.

Teaching in the L-39 must be fun. You are very lucky, and many of us are green with envy!
 
But what about engineers...?

There was this anecdote that a fellow software engineer used to tell about an engineer friend of his. The friend was working on some sort of serious flight simulator for the military and a test pilot was there with him trying to fly the simulator. The test pilot crashed the sim on a carrier landing and the engineer sort of laughed. "OK, if it's so darn easy, you fly it!" said the test pilot. The friend agreed and then flew the airplane simulation to a perfect carrier landing - using his feet.

:D
 
OldAndBold said:
3) The military lifestyle requires great sacrifice. Yep, I'm sure it does. And I salute those in uniform. And not only would I salute them, I would be willing to go alongside and help.

John I remember some months ago on another thread relating to safety that you stated that you wouldn't fly a plane on Xmas day because you didn't want to ruin that day forever for the rest of your family in the event that you were killed. I laughed then....and I'm laughing hysterically now. :D

"Yessir, I'm ready to serve my country...point me to the F-22 Raptor and strap me in...no mission will be too dangerous for me sir....as long as it's not on Xmas day". :rolleyes:
 
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Captain Avgas said:
John I remember some months ago on another thread relating to safety that you stated that you wouldn't fly a plane on Xmas day because you didn't want to ruin that day forever for the rest of your family in the event that you were killed. I laughed then....and I'm laughing hysterically now. :D

"Yessir, I'm ready to serve my country...point me to the F-22 Raptor and strap me in...no mission will be too dangerous for me sir....as long as it's not on Xmas day". :rolleyes:

Valid comment, Avgas.

There is a big difference between taking an RV out for some stupid pointless stunt and a mission necessary for the defense of the country. There is also a big difference in capablilities and in the quality of maintenance and condition of military aircraft as compared to my RV.

At the request of my wife I will still avoid flight on certain days. Recreational flight. If CAP calls up and tells me they need me to go on a rescue mission however, I will go. Even in weather that would normally be below my minimums for recreational flight (subject to CAP regulations). Wouldn't you?

I suppose you think my self-imposed restriction is silly because of the extremely low probability of someone dying while flying compunded by a particular date. Let me ask then, how many pilots have died flying in the months between that thread and now? Respectfully, how many RV pilots? Not as small of a probability as we might like, now is it?

When I was a police officer, I had no problem walking into a bad bar and arresting bikers. Would I go to those same bars off duty and try to pick fights for fun? Nope. Big difference in necessity.

Keeping it all fun here... I was never saying that I thought *I* would be a good choice - actually, Avgas, I was thinking someone like *YOU* would be a good choice. :D
 
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I've been reading this thread for quite a while now and I think the question has answered itself many times over.

Q. Would an old RV pilot make a good fighter pilot recruit?

A. No.

Q. Why. but this... but that... why???

Truth is, an old RV pilot wouldn't make a good military recruit of any flavor. You have to be able to follow orders without question. Most old guys can't do that. A good leader knows what it takes to be a good follower and that helps him be a good leader. Just because someone has been a succesful business person doesn't mean they can follow. It would probably hurt them more than help.

And finally, you can't compare being a civilian cop to being in the military. It just doesn't work. Yes, a cop puts on a unifom to go to work but that's about all they have in common, like the guy that cooked my fries yesterday, he had a uniform on too.
 
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Something similar

In the last edition, May 2007, of Pilot magazine (British GA magazine), they had an article about the possibility for a privat pilot to step in and land a large jet airliner in the event that the pilots were incapacitated.

The conclusion were that it was extremely unlikely that an average privat pilot would be able to do anything usable due to the complexity and difference of the navigation systems, autopilot, radio etc. They also concluded that a real Microsoft flight simulator geek would stand a MUCH better chance and could actually pull it off only by operating the autopilot. :D
 
RatMan said:
. . .
And finally, you can't compare being a civilian cop to being in the military. It just doesn't work. Yes, a cop puts on a unifom to go to work but that's about all they have in common, like the guy that cooked my fries yesterday, he had a uniform on too.

Actually, the department I was in, it was more like being in the mafia. Part of the reason I got out of the business. We were featured on "60 Minutes" once.

--JCB
 
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Geez, lighten up, dude.

RatMan said:
I've been reading this thread for quite a while now and I think the question has answered itself many times over.

Q. Would an old RV pilot make a good fighter pilot recruit?

A. No.

Q. Why. but this... but that... why???

. . .


Lighten up. I was just trying to have a fun discussion. Perhaps the next thread should be, "Do RV pilots have a sense of humor?"

If I have failed to be adequately funny, then please post a more amusing thread. I am sitting here bored stiff deburring elevator holes. I haven't flown in two months.

--JCB :)
 
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OldAndBold said:
Lighten up. I was just trying to have a fun discussion. Perhaps the next thread should be, "Do RV pilots have a sense of humor?"

If I have failed to be adequately funny, then please post a more amusing thread. I am sitting here bored stiff deburring elevator holes. I haven't flown in two months.

--JCB :)

Hah! I thought that part of my post was pretty funny! ! Guess it depends on which side of the fence you happen to be sitting on.

Some, I suspect like I that have worn the uniform, will see the ironic humor in that quote.

Sorry I didn't see your post as a joke. I thought you were actually being serious when you said you were willing to serve and then compared your lifestyle to the lifestyle of those actually serving and have served.

OK, its just a joke to you. Please accept my apology for my serious responses.
:D
 
I have served, both as police and military. At a time when it was considered by all my friends and family to be foolish to serve in either.

I suppose, then the next time your house is broken into, or your family member assaulted you will be so kind as to call McDonalds.

--JCB

:(
 
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RatMan said:
Hah! I thought that part of my post was pretty funny! ! Guess it depends on which side of the fence you happen to be sitting on.

Some, I suspect like I that have worn the uniform, will see the ironic humor in that quote.

Sorry I didn't see your post as a joke. I thought you were actually being serious when you said you were willing to serve and then compared your lifestyle to the lifestyle of those actually serving and have served.

OK, its just a joke to you. Please accept my apology for my serious responses.
:D

What a wacky thread! :D

Ratman - Spoken like a four year veteran of the Air Force band ... probably a trombone player! Do you have the "thousand note stare"?

--REK
 
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I am an RV pilot. I am short. I am fat. I am 42. I would not make a good fighter pilot.

I don't even like to go upside down.
 
svanarts said:
I am an RV pilot. I am short. I am fat. I am 42. I would not make a good fighter pilot.

I don't even like to go upside down.

How about flying one of these? Sitting in an air conditioned trailer, in a comfortable chair. When the mission is over, you walk outside get in your car and go home.
 
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