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Whirlwind GA200 failure

chrishalfman

chrishalfman

Active Member
Anybody else had this issue? It's a Whirlwind GA200L (ground adjustable). The first flight was Sunday and the plane has 15.1 hours on the Hobbs. After the test pilot came back today, he did nothing but rave about the prop and it's performance. After pushing it back into the hangar, I noticed a ripple on the one blade. The other blade shows stress in the coating, but not a complete issue, like in the blade photos shown. There is no nicks or imperfections in the leading edges, but the blade shown does have a hairline crack in the backside of the leading edge. Just glad it didn't depart the plane. :confused: :eek:

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Have a message in to Whirlwind. I'll let you know what they say. I guess I needed something to go wrong, as everything else has been pretty darn good so far.
 
Chris, I've got a GA200 on my IO-320 powered 9A. I'm interested to know what engine you have and what you're static RPM is?
 
ECi Titan, OX-360, 185 hp, 8.5:1 pistons, dual E-mags. Static RPM 2250.
Hope it's something easily explained. The guy doing my phase one said it was a super smooth prop (was just ready to dynamically balance it since the pitch seemed to be set right and we weren't going to be messing with adjusting things for the near future) and he liked the performance on takeoff and cruise.
It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out as I have had possession of the prop for more than a year, (about 16 months or so) but just got it installed in June. And, finding out what's wrong with what. With that being said, I did get an after hours response (from a human) to the e-mail I sent them last night. That's a pretty fast response.
 
Kinda hard to tell from the pics, but am I seeing that crack also extending into the metal leading edge strip? If so, then there must be some kind of bad harmonic mode thing happening with that specific engine and prop combo and very lucky that the blade didn't break away in flight.

Your test pilot probably should go and buy himself a lotto ticket :eek:
 
Whirlwind prop

I'll be checking mine as well. I have 120 hrs on my prop and 0 360 A1A 9:1 pistons. Please be sure to post results and info from Whirlwind. The prop is smooth. My only gripe is that the clear coat on the back side of the prop began to peel at about 70 hrs. I called Whirlwind and tech guy's response was not exactly first class. "Get a little 600 wet and dry smooth it down and then shoot some flat black on the back of the prop" Really? By the way Chris, what angle are set at? I believe I am at 22 degrees and I think I'll go to 23 as I have some throttle left.
Mark Wyss
 
He is lucky the blade didn't decide to leave while he was in the air! Whirlwind has been very responsive. They have new blades coming to me and sent a label to return the ones from the plane. Bad thing-I didn't get these blades in the overnight shipment for UPS and I think they said the person that needed to see them is on vacation next week. That's ok. Millard (KMLE) is down starting next week for runway repaving anyway. Really would like to see what the issue is before going in the air again. We've (I've) come to two conclusions-as mentioned above I'm making some kind of harmonic it does not like or two-manufacturing defect. If it's the first, I am no expert on how to fix it. If it's the latter-I would be disappointed, but put the new blades on and fly. The only complaint I've seen from people is having to adjust them multiple times to get them set.
 
Oh, to answer the question-we ended up at about 24?. Gives nice RPM at takeoff, but max'es out the motor before hitting 2700 RPM. The guy flying commented again while talking to him tonight he really likes the performance of it. I keep hoping it's something simple. I'm a mechanical engineer by schooling, but forgotten most of what I learned and was never good with vibrations and differential equations. Hopefully it doesn't become a science project as we like to call them at work (guessing on the cause and having multiple failures _guessing_ on what's wrong) and there's a simple reason or fix.
 
Use a fresh set of Nordlock washers with the new blades. If not sourced from WW, I've found pretty good deals for Nordlock washers from Zoro Tools for my Sensenich GA prop. I had to Google for them by Nordlock part number since Zoro's website search engine didn't find them directly by size.
 
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Whirlwind prop

Just wondering g how deep those cracks are. I'm really hoping they are just surface cracks since I have a new Whirlwind in the box waiting to go on an IO-360. My fingers are definitely crossed for you.
 
Over 200 hrs so far so good

Albeit I'm am flying behind an I0-320 rated at 165hp. Dual p-mags and 8.5:1 cylinders. I have seen no issues in 200+ hours.
 
danny said:
Just wondering g how deep those cracks are. I'm really hoping they are just surface cracks since I have a new Whirlwind in the box waiting to go on an IO-360. My fingers are definitely crossed for you.
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I just ordered a new Whirlwind last week, this definitely has my attention.
 
There's a lot of Whirlwinds out there, not only on planes, but on air boats. I think they're a proven design and have a good product. Just posted to see if anyone else had the same issue. The 'crack' wasn't too deep, but it was more than just a surface thing. As was mentioned above, the leading edge is also cracked on the back side. So, there has to be some bending (to fatigue the metal) of some type happening. The question is why? I wouldn't get too bent out of shape if you bought one-nobody else seems to have had this issue, so it's probably me being 'special.' :rolleyes: But, I'd make sure to keep an eye on it. I asked the guy flying if he noticed it develop he said he really didn't look that close since it's a new prop. So...... We're not sure how long it took to get to the point it did.
 
This is what I learned at OSH when I spoke with one of the owners in the Titan/Whirl Wind booth on Saturday afternoon:

Titan Aircraft, the makers of the Titan T-51 mini mustang kits, wanted the Whirlwind constant speed props and the R&D side of the constant speed props, so Titan Aircraft purchased the constant speed side of Whirl Wind (their website shows the same Ohio address now for both Titan Aircraft and Whirl Wind Aviation).

The fixed pitch side of Whirl Wind remained with Whirl Wind Propellers (California).....the makers of the air boat props.
 
hydroguy2 said:
I believe you are getting a WW200R, aren't you?

Just a note for those watching this thread.....

The WW200RV is manufactured by Whirl Wind Aviation. Whirl Wind RV props

The GA200 prop in this post is from Whirlwind Propeller. Whirlwind propeller
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Clarification: The CS prop blades are made by the same whirlwind propellor company (california) . The CS (mccauley) hubs are machined, assembled and sold with the blades by Whirlwind Aviation (ohio). I have been to the ohio factory, it is not speculation.

Nice factory tour, and information. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cyycR356pQ
 
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BillL said:
Clarification: The CS prop blades are made by the same whirlwind propellor company (california) . The CS (mccauley) hubs are machined, assembled and sold with the blades by Whirlwind Aviation (ohio). I have been to the ohio factory, it is not speculation.
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Bill.....that makes sense to keep all the blade manufacturing in CA. Glad to know that. Thanks for the clarification. :)
 
There are tons of WW props out there successfully flying without problems. This particular example of one GA version showing up with blade cracks appears at this point to be a unique, isolated example of one single failure. I would not be so hasty to suspect the product lineup of any systemic problem at this point as the numbers do not support such a thing. I highly suspect this is an oddball case of a weird, singular failure only and WW's engineers will surely discover what went wrong with this one. Still, it's always a smart plan to always keep a close eye on any prop make or model and do it as a part of every pre and post-flight inspection, no matter what brand or model since any kind of prop failure is a serious problem you definitely want to catch early, and on the ground.
 
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I have NO DATA to support this but as a hunch, having read a bit about props and harmonics and the effect of the EI's I would be once bitten twice shy unless the prop manufacturer comes out and clearly shows where they produced a defective set of blades.

I suspect the blades were not all faulty, although it is possible.

What worries me the most is the PMAG settings and the resulting peak cylinder pressures (read as the extreme forcing frequency amplitude) which when you watch crankshaft torsionals live, it is a scary thing.

If you wish to discuss this further via PM I am willing to chat rather than clog up this thread.
 
RV10inOz said:
...What worries me the most is the PMAG settings and the resulting peak cylinder pressures (read as the extreme forcing frequency amplitude) which when you watch crankshaft torsionals live, it is a scary thing....
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Do you have issue with the P-mags or electronic ignitions in general?

At Oshkosh, Craig Catto mentioned the worst engine with regard to harmonics is the (I)O-340 with high compression pistons and electronic ignition. He said he had to redesign his prop just for this engine.
 
chrishalfman said:
ECi Titan, OX-360, 185 hp, 8.5:1 pistons, dual E-mags. Static RPM 2250.
Hope it's something easily explained. The guy doing my phase one said it was a super smooth prop (was just ready to dynamically balance it since the pitch seemed to be set right and we weren't going to be messing with adjusting things for the near future) and he liked the performance on takeoff and cruise.
It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out as I have had possession of the prop for more than a year, (about 16 months or so) but just got it installed in June. And, finding out what's wrong with what. With that being said, I did get an after hours response (from a human) to the e-mail I sent them last night. That's a pretty fast response.
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There is another possibility that has not been mentioned. Do you have engine data recording capability? Is the setting the prop is at now the first setting? Was it overspeeded while in search of the proper setting? Aerobatic overspeed? I'm sure your test pilot is very qualified and I do not in any way wish to insult anyone, but these things do happen.
 
RV10inOz said:
What worries me the most is the PMAG settings and the resulting peak cylinder pressures (read as the extreme forcing frequency amplitude) which when you watch crankshaft torsionals live, it is a scary thing.
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It's a reasonable addition to the suspect list. Sure would be fun to strobe that prop.

I wouldn't get too excited here. The Rusts are entirely qualified to determine what happened, and I think they'll be all over this report.
 
For those following, here is the response I got form Whirl Wind:

Found non-structural surface flaw in face sheet which allowed epoxy ridge formation that cracked through paint under load. Blades structurally sound. Out of warranty period, courtesy replacement.

I actually feel pretty good about it. Whirl Wind Propellers was very responsive.

Can?t wait to get the new blades on! Now, if they were done with resurfacing the runway (KMLE), that would be even better??
 
Attn: Moderators

Hey Mods: How about changing the title of the thread, since there was no "failure" here. Maybe "Great Customer Service from Whirlwind" or similar?

A blade replacement out of warranty! Nice.
 
PCHunt said:
Hey Mods: How about changing the title of the thread, since there was no "failure" here. Maybe "Great Customer Service from Whirlwind" or similar?

A blade replacement out of warranty! Nice.
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I love my whirlwind prop, but let's not get carried away. This prop failed. A crack like that is a ground the plane and remove the prop event....that's a failure by anyone's standard.

It was a surface flaw in the face sheet .... Meaning it was a manufacturing defect. The replacement of a brand new prop with 15 hours on it is hardly a stretch of customer service. In fact, it's pretty much a requirement. At 15 hours, if they had called it out of warranty I would have been very disappointed in them.
 
fiber wrinkle?

thanks for the report. it seems the surface fibers may have had a wrinkle in them. wrinkled fibers will fail when loaded. inspect the prop, alum or composite, during the preflight.
 
The rest of the story......

I forgot how important it is to follow up on these things. I?m one of those people that did a ton of research on here before purchasing, as it appears others are doing or those with a set of WW blades are concerned how things turned out. No less than 3 people have contacted me in the last couple weeks and a few others prior to that asking if there was more to the story. So??

Well, the good thing is, there really isn?t much more to the story. The new blades came, got installed, and there?s 89+ hours on the Hobbs (74 hours since replacement) now with zero issues. I?m satisfied. Would I buy it again? Yup. :)
 
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