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  #11  
Old 09-06-2022, 06:26 PM
gmcjetpilot's Avatar
gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmartingt View Post
from the GAMI website, emphasis mine: Regarding operation with high compression, from their FAQs document: They've really done their homework on this stuff over more than a decade of testing.
I know it is approved by the Feds, what could go wrong. Ha ha. I saw that yesterday. We shall see. It has to be equivalent or better than 100LL in regards to resisting detonation and resistance to vapor lock. I am sure they researched this in 13 years they worked on it. Fingers crossed. We will not know until it is put into wide use. I am optimistic. The production, distribution, and cost at .the pump are the things I'm concerned about. But this is good news and progress.
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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 09-06-2022 at 06:36 PM.
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  #12  
Old 09-06-2022, 06:43 PM
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Aviator Aviator is offline
 
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like most things, economics will win. Cost.
You think an FBO will carry it if the airports around it are selling 100LL for 2$ less a gallon?
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  #13  
Old 09-06-2022, 07:32 PM
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plehrke plehrke is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aviator View Post
You think an FBO will carry it if the airports around it are selling 100LL for 2$ less a gallon?
It will be like ADSB, 406mz ELTs, etc were very few make switch (spend money) until they absolutely have to either by previous option goes away or they mandate all must make change. And even then it took a government subsidy for people to update.
I sure can’t see the average GA owner/pilot spend $500 for STC so they can pay over $500 more per year for fuel.
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There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. —MARK TWAIN

Last edited by plehrke : 09-06-2022 at 07:37 PM.
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  #14  
Old 09-06-2022, 08:23 PM
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Hartstoc Hartstoc is offline
 
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Location: Sebastopol,CA
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Default But the point was:

Embedded in the opening post of this thread was the point that an enormous level of hostility toward the continued use of TEL in fuels for any internal combustion engines exists out there, and that body of sentiment is pretty well “lawyered up”. Until September 1 that group has been held at bay solely by the FAA’s insistence that there is no approved, viable replacement for leaded avgas. The threat to aviation safety thereby trumped environmental concerns.

Now that the FAA has issued a blanket endorsement of G100UL as a replacement for 100LL for ALL spark ignition aircraft engines, the teeth may have been completely removed from that argument.

Some have suggested that user acceptance will take a long time so 100LL will be around for the foreseeable future, or that its lower price will keep it around, but I could imagine it disappearing rather quickly by edict. On the bright side, that would certainly free up plenty of tanks for distribution of G100UL! -Otis
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  #15  
Old 09-06-2022, 09:17 PM
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newt newt is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartstoc View Post
I could imagine it disappearing rather quickly by edict.
Yep.

I would not put money on continued availability of 100LL five years from now.
I'd be reluctant to put money on continued availability of 100LL three years from now.

At this stage there's an outside chance of shortages caused by TEL bans occurring faster than the G100UL supply chain can ramp up. A city or a statehouse can limit TEL sales (or tax it badly enough to be like a limit) overnight if they want to.

The next few years are going to be unstable. Seems unlikely that it'll be a gradual transition.

- mark
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  #16  
Old 09-07-2022, 07:28 AM
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Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
 
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Default So I’m back into the engine compression decision process

I have a new CAS IO-540 on order from Thunderbolt (ordered 14 months ago, looks like another 6 months before I get it).

I was offered 9 to 1 pistons at no extra charge. They would give me a few more ponies and perhaps a small gain in cross country fuel efficiency. The mess in California pushed me to staying with standard 8.5 pistons as I considered there to be a small risk the EPA would find a way to follow California’s lead. The 8.5 pistons mitigated this risk as the engine would run just fine on Swift 94 or ethanol free 93 pump gas. The pump gas has the vapor pressure issue so that needs to be incorporated into aircraft procedures.

As it now appears the DC crowd has a path to force the transition from 100LL, I worry that as they are not paying to fill up my plane fuel cost is low on their lists of concerns. While I too heard the “$0.60 to perhaps $1 more for 100UL” statement, I also heard “when in full production”. For me this translates to fuel cost now being the central issue. I have no doubt the ~$7 we recently paid for 100LL will return as the underlining situation driving up that price still exists. I consider $7/gallon a tipping point for many. $8/gallon might prove to be unsustainable for us working slobs.

Bottom line - I’ll stay with the 8.5 to 1 pistons.

Carl
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  #17  
Old 09-07-2022, 08:02 AM
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BillL BillL is offline
 
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Default All a matter of perspective.

Taking this topic to a reasonable conclusion via discussion has made my eyes roll over for 45 yrs. It is time for the field to test one of these fuels. Yes, a field test, and that is the category it is in, and will be, until we have 300,000 hours of field usage. Only then will we begin to see what the benefits and hidden issues are. At $1/gal, that is only $5M. Don't we spend literally trillions on on other environmental issues? The EPA has extra billions - why not pick high use airports and just supply this fuel to them at, say, $1.gal less than 100LL. It could not cost more than $10-15M, and let the people use it?? Why don't we (EAA, AOPA, APA) sue them and make them do this?


Otherwise, it will be a complete mess for the industry from now on, but less than we see on the news each day already.

For the record, IMO, the gloom and doom lead effects are far-far less of an environmental factor than solar panel, and EV battery issue at EOL, end of life, so if the EPA is going to be used as a club, lets get our own and make it work for aviation.

Sorry too much of a rant, I might delete the post anyway.
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Last edited by BillL : 09-07-2022 at 08:34 AM.
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  #18  
Old 09-07-2022, 03:04 PM
abuura abuura is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartstoc View Post
Now that the FAA has issued a blanket endorsement of G100UL as a replacement for 100LL for ALL spark ignition aircraft engines, the teeth may have been completely removed from that argument.
I think you're correct. It would just take congress to sunset 100LL, and it'd be game over. That'd get the G100UL process moving right quick.
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  #19  
Old 09-07-2022, 03:15 PM
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BillL BillL is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Froehlich View Post
I have a new CAS IO-540 on order from Thunderbolt (ordered 14 months ago, looks like another 6 months before I get it).

<snip>
Bottom line - I’ll stay with the 8.5 to 1 pistons.

Carl
Carl, George Braly said in a video, that he tested for the detonation limit in a specific engine and could not make it happen. High CHT, high inlet temperatures and timing etc. I was surprised. Now, it is his baby, and it is supposed to make him rich, so I would have to see that to believe, but it should be a part of the FAA records.
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Last edited by BillL : 09-08-2022 at 07:40 AM.
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  #20  
Old 09-07-2022, 05:26 PM
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Aviator Aviator is offline
 
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Location: Chattanooga, TN ( Chattanooga)
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I understand that somebody ought to pay the GAMI folks for their excellent work and diligence to get this to happen.
But if we as aviation consumers are going to be forced to take this route, why do we have to pay for this. The tree huggers need to cough it up.
As other posts above have said, did we have to pay to go 100LL?
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