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  #21  
Old 01-22-2014, 08:05 PM
PJSeipel PJSeipel is offline
 
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Location: Albany, GA for the moment
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Default

As a guy who's primary occupation is aviation logistics, including the financial accounting for several type/model/series of Marine Corps aircraft, I'll throw out another point to consider: These aircraft cost multiple thousands of dollars per hour to fly. The majority of that is parts and maintenance, but gas is not an insignificant piece either. With a cost per hour of $3k to $16k just for the airframe (depending on t/m/s), not including the pilot, as a taxpayer you should care about something that causes wasted flight hours or sorties to have to be re-flown. Remember, if you blow their mission and they have to re-fly it, then the gas and maintenance that got them out to the MOA and back was wasted.

I'm not saying don't fly through the MOA, but a little coordination might save their training mission and the taxpayers some dough. Every little bit helps, right?

PJ Seipel
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  #22  
Old 01-22-2014, 09:00 PM
rockwoodrv9 rockwoodrv9 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Meridian ID, Aspen CO, Okemos MI
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Default Thanks Bob.

Bob, as the father of my son who is the company commander of a state National Guard Apache unit, I completely support what you said. These guys are putting their lives on the line training. There are many on this forum who know this very well and some are doing this daily now. How about we just give them a bit of respect and clear skys?

I am not saying that the military guys don't have some fun now and then - but the few minutes spent going around a MOA is a pretty small price to pay to help these guys out.

Thanks Bob for the comments and support of the men and women that allow us to sleep at night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rleffler View Post
That statement is bothering me a bit. Granted I be a little sensitive since my son just finished UPT.

Most pilots are flying a "mission" in a MOA. They are training so that the can safely execute a mission when required. It's a mandatory part of their training. They are suppose to stop whatever they are doing once they aware of a GA aircraft in the MOA for safety reasons. At least in UPT, they only get two three flights a week. If they have to knock things off due to a GA aircraft flying in an active MOA, they usually have to fly back to base and repeat that training another day putting them behind schedule.

Sometimes there is no way around flying through a MOA. In many cases, it doesn't cause a significant delay to fly around a MOA. Or at least coordinate with the after controlling organization.

So think about that fresh LT that is struggling to learn a new airframe or their weapon systems, with very limited flying time due sequestration budget cuts, so that they can be well prepared to fly any mission to protect our rights. Would you prefer them to be proficient at their mission or would you rather save a few minutes of flight time?

So while it may be completely legal to fly through the MOA, think about the cause and effect. It's not some military pilot hot rodding in his fighter, it's a pilot that is training so they can put their life on the line for us. I would suggest that it's probably best for all to stay out of their way when training.

My apologies to those that I may have offended by climbing up on this soap box.
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  #23  
Old 01-22-2014, 11:14 PM
WheelsOff WheelsOff is offline
 
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc1234c View Post
I do have a few questions concerning SUA:

a. Does military airplanes flying in MOA show up on ATC radar thus displayed on ADS-B?

b. How do you obtain controlling agency frequency of a SUA? Foreflight and chart list only the controlling agency name. If there is a airport nearby with instrument approaches, the approach control frequency is on the approach plate.
a. Yes; military airplanes flying in a MOA are on an IFR clearance and therefore are squawking (if it's a formation, then lead is the only one squawking).

b. There is not a particular frequency for any given MOA; the VFR sectional only lists the controlling center agency.

It's been a while since I've done any VFR flying around in GA aircraft, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong; but if you are utilizing flight following then you're "talking" to someone and they should be able to give you information on the particular airspace in question. (Some MOAs are so large that their airspace may cover multiple center frequencies; so more than one freq should be able to provide you an answer).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Pass View Post
And as for those annoyed mil pilots saying "**** off, dude", you better remember why you're flying that mission. It's so we can be free to fly these planes though MOAs. Think about it.
This comment bothers me some as well. Again, it was certainly not my intent to throw stones or make anyone upset...just trying to educate people a little more about the implications of flying through an active MOA and the negative impacts it has on military training (as Bob took the time to more eloquently describe than I...thank you Bob) and financially to the taxpayer (as PJ pointed out).
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  #24  
Old 01-22-2014, 11:43 PM
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LAMPSguy LAMPSguy is offline
 
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Default Be careful

Be careful answering "yes, mil pilots in a moa are on ifr"

This is certainly not always the case.
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  #25  
Old 01-23-2014, 12:28 AM
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JordanGrant JordanGrant is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Virginia
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Default Minimizing impact

Gents, here's some of my perspective on this topic. FWIW, I'm an F-15 pilot by trade, and I completed my RV-6 about 7 years ago. So I see this from both sides all the time. My policy: I will fly through MOAs in my RV-6 when I need to, usually the same ones that I fly F-15 missions in. The truth is, we can often use the same MOA airspace without significant impact on each other. The training mission happening in that MOA is not likely to be canceled altogether just because there is "stranger traffic" (which is what we call you when you're inside the MOA). It might have to be modified a little bit, but usually it's not a huge factor, and it's a "fog of war" factor that has plenty of real combat equivalents. Besides, the altitudes you fly in your RV are usually not "tactically relevant". Fighters, in particular, either want to be very low (500' or less) or medium-altitude (20,000-40,000') for most tactics. The reason is that 500 feet to 20,000' is the heart of the Anti Aircraft Artillery and MANPAD envelopes - not somewhere you want to be in bad guy land. In some situations, we may need to be down to 10,000', but there are few tactically sound reasons to be between 500' and 10,000'. The exception is dropping dumb bombs or strafing, but that is what Restricted Areas (bombing ranges) are for.
If you fly a standard, non-oxygen, non-pressurized 8,500' MSL cruising altitude through a MOA, it's quite easy for us to put a "floor" at 10,000' MSL and keep fighting with little to no impact. No problem. If you are up at 14,000', or even worse, cruising pressurized at 17,500' - that is much more problematic, and I would ask that you avoid doing that.
All of that is from a pointy-nosed fast-mover perspective - other MOA users may have a different perspective. If you have a MOA close to your home base, it would pay to find out what kind of missions typically go on there. All Air Force bases have an airspace shop that has local community engagement as one of its missions - they will be happy to educate you.
So my advice is to be below 10,000' MSL, call the controlling agency on the radio and tell them where you're going and what altitude, and fly direct. Gas is expensive, after all.

Cheers,
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  #26  
Old 01-23-2014, 12:48 AM
Val Val is offline
 
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So think about that fresh LT that is struggling to learn a new airframe or their weapon systems, with very limited flying time due sequestration budget cuts, so that they can be well prepared to fly any mission to protect our rights.
[/quote]
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  #27  
Old 01-23-2014, 07:28 AM
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rleffler rleffler is offline
 
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Jordan brings up a excellent point. I've seen the great document that Sheppard AFB put together to assist locals with understanding what's happening in their MOA.

This document can be found here:

http://www.sheppard.af.mil/shared/me...120221-059.pdf

I would hope and/or assume that other bases may do an equally good job at working with the local GA community.

Accidents do happen. This is a small sample of mid-air incidents just from a single AFB/MOA.

T-38 versus civilian climbing out of Kickapoo
T-38 versus pipeline aircraft 1 mile off Runway 33 left SAFB
T-38 crosses over a civilian airplane while descending out of Comer
T-38 climbs for departing traffic out of Kickapoo
T-38 climbs for civilian traffic at Annaa
T-37 descending on VOR DME / A versus Air Tractor
2-ship T-6 formation versus Evac flight helicopter at 1500’ MSL between the T-6 pattern entry point Bridge and the Class D air space
T-6 versus civilian traffic in military operations area (MOA)
T-6 versus civilian traffic from Kickapoo in T-6 VFR traffic pattern shortly after T-6 entered the pattern at the town of Dean and was descending to 1500’ MSL
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Last edited by rleffler : 01-23-2014 at 09:20 AM.
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  #28  
Old 01-23-2014, 08:01 AM
WheelsOff WheelsOff is offline
 
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Lamps, you are correct - I had forgotten about you helo guys!
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  #29  
Old 01-23-2014, 10:44 AM
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TomVal TomVal is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rleffler View Post
Jordan brings up a excellent point. I've seen the great document that Sheppard AFB put together to assist locals with understanding what's happening in their MOA.

This document can be found here:

http://www.sheppard.af.mil/shared/me...120221-059.pdf

I would hope and/or assume that other bases may do an equally good job at working with the local GA community.

Accidents do happen. This is a small sample of mid-air incidents just from a single AFB/MOA.

T-38 versus civilian climbing out of Kickapoo
T-38 versus pipeline aircraft 1 mile off Runway 33 left SAFB
T-38 crosses over a civilian airplane while descending out of Comer
T-38 climbs for departing traffic out of Kickapoo
T-38 climbs for civilian traffic at Annaa
T-37 descending on VOR DME / A versus Air Tractor
2-ship T-6 formation versus Evac flight helicopter at 1500? MSL between the T-6 pattern entry point Bridge and the Class D air space
T-6 versus civilian traffic in military operations area (MOA)
T-6 versus civilian traffic from Kickapoo in T-6 VFR traffic pattern shortly after T-6 entered the pattern at the town of Dean and was descending to 1500? MSL
Bob,

Excellent guide, I hope the other bases publish a similar document. I might add that some military training airspace is not published other than a note on the sectional. For example, the Air Force conducts it Initial Flight Screening program out of Pueblo, CO. There are about 30 training sectors between 12 and 28 DME from PUB VOR. The training sectors are only between 7000 and 8500 ft MSL, however, the students will drop below the floor to practice ground reference maneuvers. None of these sectors are published.

On a different note. Congrats Bob on your son's recent graduation from Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training. I assume your son completed Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training. What aircraft is he going to fly?

Regards,
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  #30  
Old 01-23-2014, 12:03 PM
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rleffler rleffler is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomVal View Post
I assume your son completed Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training. What aircraft is he going to fly?
Yes, he graduated from ENJPPT this past summer. He's just starting his F-16 B course at Luke.

bob
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