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  #1  
Old 11-25-2011, 05:55 PM
vmirv8bldr's Avatar
vmirv8bldr vmirv8bldr is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eastvale, CA
Posts: 378
Default Need help with SJ cowl!!!

I need some assistance from anyone who has an SJ cowl on their 8. Specifically, Measurements along the cut line from FW to inlet on both sides. If you happen to have a Whirlwind RV200 and a Barrett IO-390, you're my new best friend.

Long story short, after getting the horizontal hinges installed on the bottom cowl, I put it on the plane and the hinge eyes are in contact with the valve cover on Cyl #2, front LEFT. Cyl #1 (front RIGHT) has about 1/4" clearance. Theoretically, Cyl #1 should be the tightest fit since it is the forward-most cylinder.

Obviously, this cowl is unusable but I need to figure out what caused this before starting over. Any ideas?

Details:
RV-8
Barrett IO-390
Whirlwind 200RV (CS) prop and spinner
Sabre 2.5" Prop extension

Thanks,
Bart
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Bart Filipiak
Eastvale, CA
RV-8 N74VB

Barrett IO-390
WW200RV
FLYING!!!!!!!
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2011, 11:06 PM
vmirv8bldr's Avatar
vmirv8bldr vmirv8bldr is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eastvale, CA
Posts: 378
Default Pictures

This may help explain what I'm seeing...

I checked my engine mount at the fuselage and it is symmetrical and centered. All bolts are torqued. 2.5" prop extension is installed as required by the SJ cowl for the RV-8.







In the pic below, I used a long level to extend the fuselage forward to the engine and then measured these values from the edge of the level to the center of the valve cover of each cylinder.






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Bart Filipiak
Eastvale, CA
RV-8 N74VB

Barrett IO-390
WW200RV
FLYING!!!!!!!
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  #3  
Old 11-27-2011, 06:03 PM
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Bruce Bruce is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Anywhere, USA
Posts: 1,143
Default

Bart,

Do you have pics from the front of the cowl around the spinner.
I would like to see the spacing there.

With some help just remove cleco's on the long side and push
back a 1/2 inch or so.
I thought I had the same problem with mine and adjusted more
after I had the spinner side gap perfect.

Thanks and I hope it helps.
Boomer
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Bruce (BOOMER) Pauley
Kathy (KAT) Pauley

RV 7A--"MISS MARIE"--- N177WD (SOLD FLYING)72742
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EX -KC-135A -------------BOOM OPERATOR #3633
VAN'S FLIGHT------------#6930

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  #4  
Old 11-27-2011, 08:42 PM
koda2 koda2 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: West Texas
Posts: 283
Default engine mount

Bart,
I am no expert but my first impression is that your engine mount is not only canted right side down but is also pointed to the right of center. I would get some measurements of the mount itself and compare it to some others.

It would also seem impossible for the engine mount to be made improperly or bent but I had some weldments that were simply not acceptable in my kit. I threw away the copilot stick base and had to totally redo the landing gear mounts.

It would also be very unlikely that the firewall installation is crooked but,... is that possible?

Double check your engine mounts to make sure one side is not reversed on the top or bottom.

Don't throw away the cowl; I know one builder who had his engine/mount on improperly, fitted the cowl, corrected the mount problem, and had to rebuild the cowl. It was accomplished with not to much difficulty.

Dave A.
6A build
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  #5  
Old 11-27-2011, 09:22 PM
vmirv8bldr's Avatar
vmirv8bldr vmirv8bldr is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eastvale, CA
Posts: 378
Default Engine cant

The engine on the 8 is supposed to be canted. The VS is put on perfectly straight and the engine is canted to overcome P-Factor. I originally thought about the mount, but with the firewall holes lining up pretty well and the back of the spinner centered, I believe it is right. I posted the pics to see if anyone else could verify theirs is about the same.

I also thought maybe the 390 jugs were slightly wider than the 360, but I understand they are identical. (Will confirm with Barrett tomorrow morning.)

I have a few ideas on making the cowl work. While I use a 1/4" spacer for fitting, it measures about 3/8th now, so I can fill and drill the rear of the cowl and pull one side out like Bruce mentioned. Someone else suggested placing a spacer and applying some heat, then letting it cool. I may also be able to remove some materials from the spinner holes and smash it down in the center to bow the sides out.

I'm still interested in confirmation of my engine mounting measurements and will call Van's in the morning also.

Keep the ides coming.

Bruce, as I said, spacing is about 3/8" back from the spinner and centered. Though centered actually leaves about 1/8 to 1/4 on the sides to play with.
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Bart Filipiak
Eastvale, CA
RV-8 N74VB

Barrett IO-390
WW200RV
FLYING!!!!!!!
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:53 AM
Stretch Stretch is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 7
Default

A friend of mine put the engine bolts in the incorrect holes when mounting the engine in his 7. Caused misalignment of the motor with the cowl.
I am not quite at that stage myself yet but I have checked. I believe the 4 bolts that go through the Dynafocul mounts are 2 pairs of different lengths. Not much in it but I am told that if they're put in the wrong holes the motor can be canted up/down/sideways - depending which bolt is where........
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RV8 QB - started June '09
First Flight - Apr 2018
Previous C172 Penn Yan 180hp (Sold)
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2011, 03:06 PM
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Bruce Bruce is offline
 
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Location: Anywhere, USA
Posts: 1,143
Default

Bart,

Reach out for Deene Ogden.
He lives in the Austin, Tx area.
Has a 390 and James cowl.

Might be able to help.
He should be in the white pages and
is an EAA TC also.

Good luck,
Bruce
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Bruce (BOOMER) Pauley
Kathy (KAT) Pauley

RV 7A--"MISS MARIE"--- N177WD (SOLD FLYING)72742
VAF #582-----------------EAA LIFETIME MEMBER
EX -KC-135A -------------BOOM OPERATOR #3633
VAN'S FLIGHT------------#6930

RETIRED覧覧覧覧-Enjoying life

See you in OSHKOSH


http://www.mykitlog.com/users/index....ley&project=84


=VAF= 2006-2021 DUES PAID
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  #8  
Old 11-28-2011, 11:57 PM
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vmirv8bldr vmirv8bldr is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eastvale, CA
Posts: 378
Default Action plan

I spoke with Deene this afternoon. His cowl was close, but not in contact and he had a few ideas. (Actually I've spoken with him a few times now this year.)

Other info of use:
Rhonda at Barrett Precision Engines confirmed the Barrett IO-390 cylinders measure exactly the same as the IO-360A1B6 (Angle valve 200HP)

Gus at Vans confirmed my engine appears to be mounted correctly, and confirmed that Cyls #2 and #4 will be very close due to the one point something or other cant in the engine and that some point behind the spinner tip will be centered on the fuselage. (Mine is!)

Will James confirms their cowls are designed for the angle valve 360 (and is compatible with the 390.) BTW, Will has been a pleasure to work with through this, but the best suggestions came from VAF.

I understand the engine rotates on the mount rather than shakes laterally or vertically, so not much clearance is really required. According to Gus, Vans removes core material in their cowls near the rocker cover edges to allow this movement as well.

Every 1/16" of an inch counts, and I'm shooting for 1/4" to be safe.

So here's my action plan. It progresses from least rework to most rework.

1. Firm belief that this cowl is salvageable.
2. Replace horizontal hinges with quarter turn fasteners leaving a gap in the mounting strip at Cyl #2 and Cyl #1
3. Check fit. If it fits with sufficient gap, stop. If not, proceed.

4. Leaving the left side vertical hinge pin in place, pull right side forward slightly.
5. Replace right firewall hinge half with wider piece and create a scarf joint in rear cowl edge, extend with flox and glass strips.
6. Check fit. If it fits with sufficient clearance, stop. If not proceed.

7. Pull both sides out closing the spinner/cowl gap. Fill as required. (It's fiberglass!!!!)

I did some fidgeting at the hangar tonight with adjusting the cowl. I believe the first modification will do the trick and have already removed the horizontal hinge halves from the bottom cowl. The Proseal was three or four (cold) days old and was still pretty soft. After drilling out the rivets and removing the hinge half, a razor blade followed by a cleaning brush and some MEK removed about 95% of the proseal in the area than will be required to bond the quarter turn attachment strips. I'm going to go ahead and replace the top cowl firewall attach hinge with quarter turn fasteners as well.

By the way, after drilling through all this fiberglass, my #40 bit was not doing a great job on the rivet heads. I touched it up with the "Drill Doctor" my dad gave me for Christmas a few years ago and wow, what a difference!!!!!! If you don't have one of these, put it on your Christmas list! (A new bit here and there is cheaper, but if you have several bits of various sizes and use them frequently, it's nice to touch one up while you're working.)

More to come, stay tuned.
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Bart Filipiak
Eastvale, CA
RV-8 N74VB

Barrett IO-390
WW200RV
FLYING!!!!!!!
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2011, 08:30 AM
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DanH DanH is online now
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 9,795
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vmirv8bldr View Post
According to Gus, Vans removes core material in their cowls near the rocker cover edges to allow this movement as well.
The stock cowl is tight at the seam near the #3 rocker cover, but Gus probably means above the baffle mount ears.....the baffle wears or bumps the underside of the top cowl.



FWIW you can lower the baffle just a bit by filing a nice radius on the mount ears.



I seem to recall somebody mentioning low profile 1/4 turn sockets (POSTSCRIPT: it was Darwin, low-profile sockets available at Skybolt). I went with screws and nutplates on the side seam. Be cautious about skip spacing; the cowl really is a big balloon.

If you do an attach flange with glass rather than an aluminum strip it will fit better.
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RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390

Last edited by DanH : 11-30-2011 at 07:47 AM.
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2011, 09:42 AM
vmirv8bldr's Avatar
vmirv8bldr vmirv8bldr is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eastvale, CA
Posts: 378
Default Thanks Dan

Correct Dan, Gus said the core material omission in that area was for the "ears" not so much the cover, and I'm relieved to see your cowl that tight on the left side!!! Also, I went with a plenum setup, a challenge in itself. The SJ Plenum attaches directly to the rocker cover ear without baffling material and is very, very tight. I will need to lay up some flox to fill a few gaps though.

Excellent idea with the nutplate and fiberglass attach strip. I have the Milspec quarter turns already. I ordered them years ago, but decided to go with the hinges for the clean look, and to save a little time. We all see how that worked out for me. I guess advantages of the nutplates vs quarter turns is that installation is easier and lighter, there is no adjusting, and you always know it's tight enough. I assume SS screws with tinnermans. Do you have a suggestion for a requisite number of BID layers? (I have a good bit of 5.8oz S glass on hand.)

I was really surprised (and pleased) how easily the semi-cured proseal came off.

Thanks Dan!
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Eastvale, CA
RV-8 N74VB

Barrett IO-390
WW200RV
FLYING!!!!!!!
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