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  #31  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:18 PM
N941WR's Avatar
N941WR N941WR is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kuykendall View Post
... Oh, and then you have to go back to Phase I and do 25 or 40 hours of testing. All in all, that's a lot of trouble and expense to go through to sell an airframe.

Thanks, Bob K.
www.hpaircraft.com
Nope, only five, yes FIVE, hours in Phase I. I was stunned when I found that out.
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  #32  
Old 04-09-2010, 07:46 PM
instructor_bill instructor_bill is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Petaluma, CA
Posts: 233
Default And I thought I asked about engine mount fabricators

I've been here for a while, I've done my reading.

I don't care to throw stones. Thanks to this forum, I've got some feedback that I think I can use in order to mount the engine. (some sifting required)
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RV7 SB in construction
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  #33  
Old 04-09-2010, 08:24 PM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kuykendall View Post
....
It is much more easily said than done to remove one engine and install an engine of a completely different type. In the case at hand, you would probably end up removing and discarding pretty much everything firewall forward, then installing new engine mount, engine, baffling, induction system, cowling, exhaust system, controls, and monitoring systems. Oh, and then you have to go back to Phase I and do 25 or 40 hours of testing. All in all, that's a lot of trouble and expense to go through to sell an airframe.

Thanks, Bob K.
www.hpaircraft.com
Bill is correct, it is 5 hours minimum back to phase one. I did it last year. It took about 8 months to make the switch.

The idea of going with an alternate engine is complex and little understood by most builders. I've had both feet in that camp, had some success and some non-success. There is much written about such an adventure because some people doing it are really hooked and can write volumes about their passion.

I wasn't so much impressed with the written stuff as seeing and flying with an alternate engine. In the beginning things were simple and worked fairly well. Last I heard, one of the early guys had over 900 trouble free hours. There is another pilot in Venice, FL who gave me a ride, very impressive and he has had great success. There a few guys like that around, they simply keep to themselves and do their thing. Same can be said for the Mazda rotary crowd. We tend to hear much more about failures than successes in this business. Sometimes the bad news is justified, you just don't know how deep it goes because guys involved don't want to rock the boat too much, after all they are in it for better or worse.

When it comes to selling whatever the alternate engine airplane is, buyers are not passionate about it. They want proven value and that's almost impossible to present. Some buyers will go for a totally underpriced project simply because they can not resist such a deal. But the builder will NEVER get his money back on an alternate engine - not to think about labor.

I understand completely why a person would want to get involved with an alternate engine and try to make something different work. It can be fun, interesting, and sometimes things work out quite well. But much of it is not long term proven in an airplane and that always presents an element of uncertainty.

Some thrive on such things, I don't any more.
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  #34  
Old 04-09-2010, 10:09 PM
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vmirv8bldr vmirv8bldr is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eastvale, CA
Posts: 378
Default I'm a rotary fan!

I very, very nearly went with a rotary engine! High power/weight ratio, loves running in the higher RPM's, dual ignition per combustion chamber, smooth running if a chamber quits, and due to greater case thermal expansion, nearly impossible to seize up. Sounds about perfect for an airplane. I commend you on your effort!!!! Bruce and Tracy are the folks to work with here too. It may be worth seeing who built/builds PowerSport's mounts, they may have the tooling to make your mount. IIRC it was a sled-type.

As others have said, it will require more tinkering, and that was what led me to put an aero engine in mine. Still an experimental aero engine though.

Thanks for keeping the "E" in EAA!!!
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  #35  
Old 04-09-2010, 10:42 PM
dlomheim dlomheim is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: (2OK2) OK City, OK
Posts: 382
Smile What was the original question?

Welcome to the world of fabricating Bill! Since there has been so little direct replies to your original question let me bring up a few options:

1. Check out Todd Bartrim's RV-9 site since he has already done what you talking about...buying the back of a mount and adding structure to the front that will tie into the Renesis / 13B. http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm

2. There also is an engine mount designed by Bill Shertz called the "Shertz beam"... http://www.jerryhey.com/S-Beam.html

3. Mistral is developing a certified 13B type engine and has been willing to sell individual parts that they have developed to home builders. They sell a rear cover plate I believe will bolt right onto a standard Lord type engine mount.

4. But since you're working on getting a TIG welding currrency hack again, you might want to just jump right in and weld up your own from scratch?!

I wish you lived a bit closer since I would gladly help you regain your TIG touch by welding some AN male bungs onto my radiator and also welding up my stainless steel exhaust system. If you going to do a project like this, a TIG welder and the skills to employ it will really come in handy!

Someone else mentioned it, but if you aren't already doing so you need to drop in and check out the rotary newsgroup list from time to time. There are some great guys on that list with incredible rotary experience who are ready and willing to pass information along free of charge.

http://lancair.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html?Language= I have been on it for 7 or 8 yrs. I think and you can search the archives by topic for quite a few great answers to dilemmas you encounter.

Keep us posted on your progress!

Doug Lomheim
OK City,OK
RV-9A, 13B , FWF, electrical, etc., etc,

P.S. A Navy buddy (Peter Bauer) who flew F-14's a while ago once told me that American Graffiti was filmed in his home town of Petaluma...

Last edited by dlomheim : 04-09-2010 at 10:47 PM. Reason: spelling error / added another link
  #36  
Old 04-10-2010, 12:05 AM
instructor_bill instructor_bill is offline
 
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Location: Petaluma, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlomheim View Post
P.S. A Navy buddy (Peter Bauer) who flew F-14's a while ago once told me that American Graffiti was filmed in his home town of Petaluma...
yup, here and another local town San Rafael


Thanks for checking in, I'll check out your links!
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RV7 SB in construction
Avionics, Wiring, FWF, interior, and paint to go.
  #37  
Old 04-10-2010, 12:34 AM
SvingenB SvingenB is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Norway, Stj?rdal
Posts: 598
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I have only flown behind Lycomings and Rotax 912 and a few times behind a Rotax 447. I know that lots of people will consider the 912 and "alternate" engine, but the truth (based on facts) is that the 912 is in every single aspect a much better product, a better design solution as an aircraft engine both overall and in the details, and 10 times better built in times of precision and workmanship (quality). But, what the Lycoming lacks in quality and finesse, it makes up in brute simplicity, proven functionality and unsurpassed maintainability.

The Mistral is a rotary, presumably approaching the functionality of Rotax/Lycoming, but the last time I asked for a price, it costs twice that of a Lycoming 360. A rotary is often projected as the perfect aviation engine mainly because of much fewer moving parts, less vibrations and more compact size. Clearly there must be some major faults about the whole concept, or otherwise every aircraft would be using rotaries by now. The truth is that the rotary engine is a defunct dead end road in the history of engines, a curiosity nothing more. But then again, isn't one of the main ideas of experimental aviation to investigate and try curiosities?

There are others, like the Rotec and the WAM and the Verner Radial

If it is marketed as the thing it is, something different - a curiosity for enthusiasts, then it is OK (like Rotec, Verner with their radial engines and Wilksh does). But it looks like most have an idea to revolutionize the world, especially those doing auto conversions, and sadly also Mistral.
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  #38  
Old 04-10-2010, 12:46 AM
SHIPCHIEF SHIPCHIEF is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,412
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BILL;
Check my link below, there are a few pics of my turbo rotary powered RV-8.
I bought my mount from Fred Breese. I don't know if he still makes them, but I like mine.
My first engine run was a blast. You can see it on youtube if you search 'rotary 13b RV-8'.
You have to fabricate all your radiator and oil cooler mounts, manifolds, alternator brackets, throttle body, air filter,... everything.
It takes a while, so you already know you are doing it for the fun of building.
I've enjoyed every minute, and there have been quite a few!
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  #39  
Old 04-10-2010, 07:45 AM
flybye flybye is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Border
Posts: 113
Default Good on you!

Bill,

Just have to say, it's people like you who have me coming back to this board time and again. Those who lack ingenuity and don't have the nerve to experiment are weak willed and easily led.

Robin
Carbed Lycoming 0-320.
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  #40  
Old 04-10-2010, 08:05 AM
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N713R N713R is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Flanagan, IL
Posts: 194
Default Engine mount help.

Bill,

As perviously posted by another member, Fred Breese made engine mount s for the rotary. However it took him a year to get mine done. He now no longer makes them, and is not in business. Contact Ed Klepis at Tech welding in Paducah Kentucky. http://www.techwelding.com
He now makes the mount that Fred Breese used to make, but with some nice improvements that I wish I had on mine. He is also easy to work with, and is open to helping on parts if thats what you need or want. I built my intake, and he welded it up for me, and he built my radiator and oil cooler as well. Good guy, great work.

Ben
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