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How many issues can you find?

N941WR

Legacy Member
A new RV friend who will remain anonymous contacted me with a problem. His newly purchased RV would quit whenever he turned off the electric fuel pump. A quick ground run verified that both the engine driven and electric fuel pumps were fine.

Before meeting him at the plane, I asked him if he knew how the fuel lines were routed. He didn’t but contacted the builder (who will remain nameless but this is supposed to be his 14th build) he was told the fuel lines were run “in the coolest part of the engine compartment”.

After pulling off the cowling, this is what we found. How many issues with this installation can you point out?

(The owner paid to have the fueling issues corrected and is happily enjoying his new toy.)

Image 1:
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Image 2:
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Image 3:
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Image 4:
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PS. Do not even think of asking who owns the plane or who built it.
PPS. The owner of this airplane granted permission to post the pictures when I took them and I agreed not to post them until his issues were resolved. He is watching and learning from your comments.
 
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Does he know the lower intercylinder baffles are installed on the top of the engine, or did he do that on purpose?
 
Ouch! I gave up looking after seeing a hand full of issues. It certainly would have me auditing the rest of the build due to the builder's decision making process. It would make you wonder if you could trust any of his decisions.
 
Safety wire missing on the injector spider screws.

Also, do I see the dipstick tube tyrapped to the motor mount with a rubber hose spacer?
 
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I'll add a couple more that we noticed.

#5: The oil pressure sensor is tie wrapped to the engine mount and doesn't have a ground. So, the builder soldered a wire to the case. (You can't really see that from the pictures.)

#6: The "fuel line" (that's a hint) from the fuel pump to the fuel servo was undersized.
 
That really is something. Check out the bend radius of that control cable in the bottom left of img #2. That doesn't actually work anything does it?
 
What is the black cable that looks bundled up in a figure 8 knot of sorts in Image #2? Can't figure what it is and why so much extra length is left.
 
So that means there are 13 more aircraft out there that are the same or worse? Most of us get better with each build.;(.
Ryan
 
Of course the obvious is that all the fuel lines are packed in just about the hottest part of the engine compartment. It's no wonder the engine died as soon as you turned off the fuel pump.

This just underscores the necessity of the EAA Tech Counselors or other 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc "set of eyes" looking at your project.
 
did that engine come out of an updraft installation? (inter-cylinder baffle plates)
Wow.
  • stuff directly ty-wrapped to the engine mount tubes.
  • Ignition leads tied to fuel lines.
  • I don't know anything about injection setups, but isn't there supposed to be a return line?
  • Plus what the others have pointed out.
The air-cooled GPS antenna tray is interesting.

I don't even want to look behind the panel....
 
The fire sleeves on the fuel lines to the spider (both forward and aft of the rear baffle) are too short and not sealed at the ends.

That also looks like a pretty small wire on the B lead of the 20A standby alternator.

What's the black hose with the blue tie-wraps at the bottom left of image 2? That looks like cheap lawnmower or automotive fuel hose. Please don't tell us that's the fuel line to the servo?
 
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No clamps on the ends of the firesleeve.

Looks like Nyloc nuts on the adels holding the injector lines.

Pic #3 shows injector line adels of significant difference in size. I wonder if one adel is the wrong size.

What is the baffle material for located above and aft of the aux alternator?

Bevan
 
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Engine preheater

What is the black cable that looks bundled up in a figure 8 knot of sorts in Image #2? Can't figure what it is and why so much extra length is left.

I bet that is the cord for his engine preheater. I know because I have something similar under my cowl. Just that, not the rest of the abortion.
 
One other thing...

This fuel injected airplane also had a big aluminum gascolator/heat sink. (You can't see it in any of the pictures I took.)
 
I had a similar situation come up several years ago. A gentleman bought an RV and wanted me to do a condition inspection. I didn't have time, so I referred him to Darrell over in Mineral Wells. Darrell sent me a ton of pictures of discrepancies including telephone wire run through garden hose, never installed rivets, figure 8 holes on the main wing spar attach, and things you would not believe. It took him over a year to get the airplane to "a condition for safe operation".
I started to say "back in a condition for safe operation", but it apparently was never there to begin with.
 
Folks, please be careful. There was a fatal E-AB (non-RV) accident at LVK this weekend due to an in-flight fire immediately after takeoff.
 
14th build??

So this guy has built14 airplanes. I've seen this "this is the way we've always done it" attitude at certified shops. Unfortuneatly that way was wrong. There are plenty of reference material for the correct way of doing things. Use it.
 
There is a common myth that build quality is better from a builder who has done it before. Some of the worst examples I have seen came from "experienced" builders. But I have never seen one quite this bad.
 
I am wondering who was the D.A.R. on the plane?

My plane was inspected by the local FSDO and there was no inspection. All he did was walk around the plane once, made sure the paperwork was in order, and then left. It took maybe 20 minutes. The FSDO made it very clear thay their job was not to make sure the plane was airworthy or safe, that was up to the builder, they told me. That said, our EAA chapter was all over the plane before I moved it to the airport and again before the first flight.
 
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While it is the duty of the DAR to only make sure that the aircraft meets regulations, He/she may also deny airworthiness certificate issuance for anything he/she feels is unsafe.

I think most DARs go that extra mile to give the aircraft a thorough inspection, informing the applicant of questionable practices.
I know that I will not sign off on anything I'm not comfortable with, and I think my clients appreciate that.
 
While it is the duty of the DAR to only make sure that the aircraft meets regulations, He/she may also deny airworthiness certificate issuance for anything he/she feels is unsafe.

I think most DARs go that extra mile to give the aircraft a thorough inspection, informing the applicant of questionable practices.
I know that I will not sign off on anything I'm not comfortable with, and I think my clients appreciate that.

That explains a lot in my mind. I have had a very difficult time finding an already-flying plane to buy. Some of that is the fact that you simply can't go see every plane you think you might be interested in. But of the ones I have seen, it has been eye opening just how poorly the planes have been built (and how cavalier the buiders have been about issues I've had questions about).

I was under the impression that airworthiness was what was being signed off when it got it's DAR inspection. So now, at least I know how planes like this can be flying and why I have seen so many planes that fell far short of what I expected based on the seller's representation.

As an aside, the advertisements I read are almost always a cause for some head shaking. Not a single plane I have actually gone to look at lived up to the claims of the seller. And the biggest offenders by far are people that claim to be "multi-plane builders."

I think this thread will be the turning point in my plane search. I feels like a futile undertaking to try to find a well-built RV to buy. Thanks for the education. Andy
 
I think this thread will be the turning point in my plane search. I feels like a futile undertaking to try to find a well-built RV to buy. Thanks for the education. Andy

I don't think it is futile. Yes there are some that are not built to quality standards, but from looking at most builders projects that I have seen, I think the majority of builders do try to build the best plane they can.

A quality pre-buy is extra important on an experimental.
 
Two 90 fittings in fuel line from pump to spider. These will certainly cause the possible vapor lock condition :eek:.

Dave (Swift Driver)
 
While it is the duty of the DAR to only make sure that the aircraft meets regulations, He/she may also deny airworthiness certificate issuance for anything he/she feels is unsafe.

I think most DARs go that extra mile to give the aircraft a thorough inspection, informing the applicant of questionable practices.
I know that I will not sign off on anything I'm not comfortable with, and I think my clients appreciate that.

I don't think it is futile. Yes there are some that are not built to quality standards, but from looking at most builders projects that I have seen, I think the majority of builders do try to build the best plane they can.

A quality pre-buy is extra important on an experimental.
I wish this forum had a simple "Like" button!
 
Two 90 fittings in fuel line from pump to spider. These will certainly cause the possible vapor lock condition :eek:.

Dave (Swift Driver)

I believe the 90 degree fitting at the spider end is an approved Lycoming part.
 
Two 90 fittings in fuel line from pump to spider. These will certainly cause the possible vapor lock condition :eek:.

Dave (Swift Driver)
How? By becoming heat sinks?

Yes, but the laying just above the #3 cylinder is bad news.
Why??

I see some issues here, but not as many as all this "someone's gonna spontaneously combust" indignation warrants. I've seen rental planes with similar conditions under the cowl.
 
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How? By becoming heat sinks?


Why??

I see some issues here, but not as many as all this "someone's gonna spontaneously combust" indignation warrants. I've seen rental planes with similar conditions under the cowl.

There is a difference between "poor craftsmanship" and dangerous practices. I have to agree with you, however, I would not accept it.

Examples - Why isn't the "spider" in it's "normal" location between #1 and #3 cylinders? You could easily solve the unnecessary long fuel line run and clean up the injector lines.
Tie wraps on engine mounts? Still debatable. I apply a few wraps of silicon tape around the mount, but still use tie wraps.
Inter-cylinder baffles? Stupid enough to put them on the top side in a top pressure plenum, big alarm bells go off about the rest of the build.....

I could go on.
 
There is a difference between "poor craftsmanship" and dangerous practices. I have to agree with you, however, I would not accept it.

Examples - Why isn't the "spider" in it's "normal" location between #1 and #3 cylinders? You could easily solve the unnecessary long fuel line run and clean up the injector lines.
Tie wraps on engine mounts? Still debatable. I apply a few wraps of silicon tape around the mount, but still use tie wraps.
Inter-cylinder baffles? Stupid enough to put them on the top side in a top pressure plenum, big alarm bells go off about the rest of the build.....

I could go on.
Yep. Guess all the righteous indignation struck me a little wrong. Especially since the guy asked for and received help correcting several of these issues.
 
Let's keep in mind that these issues DID in fact add up to what must be considered a "dangerous practice". When the fan stops turning simply because the electric pump is switched off, that is a very dangerous situation.
 
Question...........

So, how many hours has this plane flown before your friend bought it???

Obviously there is empirical evidence that some of the dire warnings so far may be just a bit pessimistic.
 
So, how many hours has this plane flown before your friend bought it???

Obviously there is empirical evidence that some of the dire warnings so far may be just a bit pessimistic.

No idea, I didn't ask. All I did was help arrange for him to get these issues corrected, which he did. He reported back that the plane is now operating as expected.

These pictures were not posted to flame anyone or trash a guy's purchase but as a learning tool for those who are still building.

If someone has a good, clean installation, can you send me your pictures and I'll post them anonymously as a comparison for best practices. (I have a carb, otherwise I would post my pictures.)
 
How? By becoming heat sinks?
According to Don Rivera at Air Flow Performance, a 90 degree fitting can cause bubbles to form in the fuel. He recommends the fuel line be run up between the two cylinders and to keep the fuel lines as short and fitting free as possible. Obviously, the 90 degree fitting into the "spider" is required.

Why??

I see some issues here, but not as many as all this "someone's gonna spontaneously combust" indignation warrants. I've seen rental planes with similar conditions under the cowl.
As I understand it, that is one of the hottest parts of the engine compartment and the radiant heat from the cylinder, along with the 90 degree fitting could be a source of vapor lock.
 
According to Don Rivera at Air Flow Performance, a 90 degree fitting can cause bubbles to form in the fuel. He recommends the fuel line be run up between the two cylinders and to keep the fuel lines as short and fitting free as possible. Obviously, the 90 degree fitting into the "spider" is required.
.....

Which is why some IO- Lycoming inter-cylinder baffles have a hole in them...:)
 
According to Don Rivera at Air Flow Performance, a 90 degree fitting can cause bubbles to form in the fuel.

I wouldn't think a fitting would cause bubbles to form on the "pressurized" side of a fuel injection system. I could be wrong though, probably am... I'm married. :rolleyes:

Bevan
 
No idea, I didn't ask. All I did was help arrange for him to get these issues corrected, which he did. He reported back that the plane is now operating as expected.

These pictures were not posted to flame anyone or trash a guy's purchase but as a learning tool for those who are still building.

If someone has a good, clean installation, can you send me your pictures and I'll post them anonymously as a comparison for best practices. (I have a carb, otherwise I would post my pictures.)
Wellllll . . . I have what I, and many others who have inspected my plane, consider a clean, safe, appropriate, (insert whatever adjective you wish here) fuel injected firewall forward install. I might be inclined to acquiesce to your request for a picture, if it were not for the smug indignation of the other posters on this thread. I am sure I was in no way perfect in my installation, I even had some issues during Phase I that required fixing under the cowl after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th flight. I even had some issues underneath the cowl I had to address at the last condition inspection. However, I am not at all interested in submitting my admittedly fragile ego to the same smug indignation, or even the opposite, 'pats on the back' for a job well done attitude, that could come from such a submission. Even the opposite reaction to the prevailing comments here still would have their basis in the smug attitude that is prevailing in these comments.

Everyone has issues that need addressing in their construction practices. I think it poor taste to openly post in a format that ensures there will be anonymous bashing of someone's construction or maintenance practices without at least giving that person the benefit of 'addressing her/his detractors' first hand and having the opportunity to personally address the shortcomings that might be evident in her/his build. Why is it not appropriate to contact the builder and inquire into that person's building practices that might lead to an offer of some of the above advice to the person directly? If he is so bad at building that these issues are so terribly bad or inappropriate, then it behooves all of us in this community to address the issue directly with that person. It does him or others reading these posts little good to hide behind a computer screen while we smugly imply with our comments that we are much better builders than this person and would never make such mistakes. If this person needs some direction on best practices and build quality, does anyone here really think he will get it from these comments on this forum? I for one, do not think he will gain much from it, nor will most of us reading these posts. At best we may glean some measure of knowledge we may not have understood much about before, but at what cost is that knowledge? We are basically just joining in on the camaraderie with a group that implies that we belong to an elite group of individuals that would NEVER BUILD ANYTHING SO LACKING!

Please, we are better than that! Aren't we?
 
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This is actually a great exercise, next time I have my cowl off I will take a few pix and will post it to get so many good eyes on it. How could I not have thought of that 500 hours ago at my first flight. Luckily it went fine.
 
Not smug indignation

This thread serves as a great education for most of us who look at these sorts of photos and comments with open eyes and minds and are willing to learn a thing or two.

I am lucky to live in a community with several experienced builders who could point me in the right direction when needed. Not everyone has that luxury, though, and threads like this may just save someone's life someday. There were things that I didn't even think of which were pointed out by experienced observers, and I feel that I learned something here. The fact that these issues were addressed in a public forum is the very reason there is an educational opportunity. If they had been discussed privately with the builder or buyer, then the rest of us lost the opportunity to learn.

If someone's feelings (including mine) are hurt in the interest of greater overall safety, then so be it. To anyone who ever lays eyes on my plane: please point out ANYTHING that you feel may be even the slightest bit unsafe. I may decide to ignore you, but at least I would be educated that there may be a problem.
 
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Everyone has issues that need addressing in their construction practices. I think it poor taste to openly post in a format that ensures there will be anonymous bashing of someone's construction or maintenance practices...

Well said, Steve...I for one agree with you.

Kurt, I think the point is the lack of discussing the problems in a factual manner. Instead, the tone in which many are using is pretty bad.
 
This thread serves as a great education for most of us who look at these sorts of photos and comments with open eyes and minds and are willing to learn a thing or two.

I am lucky to live in a community with several experienced builders who could point me in the right direction when needed. Not everyone has that luxury, though, and threads like this may just save someone's life someday. There were things that I didn't even think of which were pointed out by experienced observers, and I feel that I learned something here. The fact that these issues were addressed in a public forum is the very reason there is an educational opportunity. If they had been discussed privately with the builder or buyer, then the rest of us lost the opportunity to learn.

If someone's feelings (including mine) are hurt in the interest of greater overall safety, then so be it. To anyone who ever lays eyes on my plane: please point out ANYTHING that you feel may be even the slightest bit unsafe. I may decide to ignore you, but at least I would be educated that there may be a problem.
Perhaps my point was not well articulated. I also had multiple individuals, experienced and otherwise, go over my plane many times during the build. They still do so to this day 4 years later anytime they are around any work I am doing. That was not my point. I was not implying that the education was not of some value. What I am saying is why not talk to the builder FIRST. Afterwards everyone can have a public discussion of the issues that were addressed with the builder.
 
builder

Perhaps my point was not well articulated. I also had multiple individuals, experienced and otherwise, go over my plane many times during the build. They still do so to this day 4 years later anytime they are around any work I am doing. That was not my point. I was not implying that the education was not of some value. What I am saying is why not talk to the builder FIRST. Afterwards everyone can have a public discussion of the issues that were addressed with the builder.

No one knows who the builder is except the guy that bought the plane.
I don't think there was a lot of bashing. I suggested a good reference ala 43:13 or Tony B's books is better than winging it.
I'd rather have my feelings hurt than be dead.
 
.... I am sure I was in no way perfect in my installation, I even had some issues during Phase I that required fixing under the cowl after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th flight. I even had some issues underneath the cowl I had to address at the last condition inspection.
As have the rest of us. That is exactly the point of this thread. It was posted so the rest of us can learn from this example.

However, I am not at all interested in submitting my admittedly fragile ego to the same smug indignation, or even the opposite, 'pats on the back' for a job well done attitude, that could come from such a submission....
That is fine and exactly the reason I offered to post pictures anonymously. I would think that if we posted pictures from a certified airplane, this gang would find something to pick at. That is a good thing as we can all learn something and improve our installation.
 
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