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Slipping an RV-6A on final

JCSmith

Member
Hi all! I've noticed how nicely my RV-6A loses altitude in a slip on final. But I only use about 1/2 rudder / aileron since I'm not sure about using full cross controls. Any slipping advice out there for an RV-6A?
 
Just go to altitude and practice. Keep the speed up and and don't slip up. I usually do my slipping during the turn. By the time I roll out I am 90% there. Abeam the numbers, full flaps, slip in the turn, hit the spot. Good practice. :) I usually don't need full controls.
 
RVs slip great with full controls. Normally full control is not necessary, but it works fine.
 
I do it often as I often land clean or with 1/2 flaps. Bleeds speed and altitude nicely. The -6 slips awesomely. :)
 
But I only use about 1/2 rudder / aileron since I'm not sure about using full cross controls. Any slipping advice out there for an RV-6A?

Put that rudder to the floor and don't tack on extra speed. Full flaps is fine too. Don't worry about spinning...just about impossible from that configuration if you're power off and you don't for some reason make a big fast yank back on the stick. I really love how RVs fly, but I'm not crazy about how they slip...just not very effective compared to many other types. They are rudder-limited, and don't have much side area or drag to exploit during a slip. There's a reason Cubs, Stearmans, and Pitts' slip so well...and there's also a reason why they are slow. :) IMO, in RVs it's almost not worthwhile unless you're using full rudder. But of course the nice thing about the slip is that you can use them to even small degrees to fine-tune your approach. As far as effectiveness goes, I guess it's all relative. I flew an RV-6A after flying the Pitts for a few years and was idle, full flaps, 80 mph with the rudder on the floor down final, and the dang thing just didn't seem like it was coming down at all. :) Went around and tried again.
 
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Slip

Good technique to have in the bag of tricks for precautionary landings. As mentioned above do some fam at altitude, as you get comfortable, combine in normal pattern work. Plane slips great, effectiveness is certainly there. Perhaps others do it better and some worse.
 
... I flew an RV-6A after flying the Pitts for a few years and was idle, full flaps, 80 mph with the rudder on the floor down final, and the dang thing just didn't seem like it was coming down at all. :) Went around and tried again.
Try my -9 sometime! While it slips like an RV, that long wing just keeps on flying and flying and flying!
 
Plane slips great, effectiveness is certainly there. Perhaps others do it better and some worse.

I figured I might catch flak for that. :) I'm not bashing RVs. As mentioned, they don't slip nearly as well as many others due to the nature of their design. Effectiveness is a relative term. There's little you can do from a technique standpoint to improve the effectiveness of a slip if you're on airspeed, with full deflection....other than adding a turning component to the slip. I slipped my RV on every landing for years. Did the same in the Cub and Pitts. Sorry, but the RV is a pig (relatively speaking) in that respect. :) But I'm on record saying that that RV was overall the best flying airplane I've ever flown. I know I'm stirrin' the loyalist pot. :D

Try my -9 sometime! While it slips like an RV, that long wing just keeps on flying and flying and flying!

Bill, if I flew your -9, I bet I could hit the numbers on the very first try...the numbers on the opposite end of the runway. :D
 
Part of it is technique. If you've got full flaps, a full slip, and still aren't coming down fast enough, it seems odd to blame the aircraft.

Just sayin'....
 
While my -6 doesn't slip as dramatically as my old Cherokee 140 would (that plane was a piece of cake to do "slam dunk" approaches in), the -6 does indeed slip just fine. I rarely find the need to slip it however, since if you just slow down to about 75 MPH on final, then it'll drop like a rock plenty quick enough :D
 
Part of it is technique. If you've got full flaps, a full slip, and still aren't coming down fast enough, it seems odd to blame the aircraft.

Just sayin'....

I'm not blaming an airplane. I don't think you're understanding that all I'm saying is that an RV doesn't slip nearly as well many other airplanes. All airplanes are different. Yes...an RV does slip. Anything with rudder pedals will slip. And yes, the "technique" problem was coming in too high after not having flown an RV for about 5 years, and not being used to an airplane that doesn't slip nearly as effectively and has a much flatter glide...even in the full slip configuration. If you haven't spent much time in a variety of airplanes with big control surfaces, you may not appreciate how much difference exists among different types when it comes to slip effectiveness and glide angle. It only took one approach to remember how much flatter an RV flies on final.
 
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I'm not blaming an airplane. I don't think you're understanding that all I'm saying is that an RV doesn't slip nearly as well many other airplanes. All airplanes are different. Yes...an RV does slip. Anything with rudder pedals will slip. And yes, the "technique" problem was coming in too high after not having flown an RV for about 5 years, and not being used to an airplane that doesn't slip nearly as effectively and has a much flatter glide...even in the full slip configuration. If you haven't spent much time in a variety of airplanes with big control surfaces, you may not appreciate how much difference exists among different types when it comes to slip effectiveness and glide angle. It only took one approach to remember how much flatter an RV flies on final.

Just finished my RV transition training, and I thought the aircraft slips just fine as well, but I can say it's not like a Pitts or Extra.

I think the misunderstanding is the folks that are used to the way a RV slips think it's fine because it's pretty much like most Pipers and Cessnas, whereas those with experience slipping a Pitts at idle power know something about 45 degree glide paths! ;)
 
I think the misunderstanding is the folks that are used to the way a RV slips think it's fine because it's pretty much like most Pipers and Cessnas,

People slip Pipers and Cessnas? :) IMO, the RV slips only slightly better than a Cessna, but still not nearly as well as the old flapless tube-and-fabric taildragger trainers that I'm comparing the slip qualities to. I've seen hundreds of trainer landings over the last few years where I'm based, and can count on one hand the number of times I've seen anyone slip. The 3-degree "stabilized" approaches have taken over...at least in the modern training culture it seems. Some there thought I was "crazy" for doing steep slips to land.
 
If I'm solo in the -4 I just slow to 60 KTS. If you can't make the runway that way a slip isn't going to do you any good either.

I don't think the RV does much good in the slip unless you just need to slow down. I've used it to get in the white arc.
 
People slip Pipers and Cessnas? :) IMO, the RV slips only slightly better than a Cessna, but still not nearly as well as the old flapless tube-and-fabric taildragger trainers that I'm comparing the slip qualities to.
Some there thought I was "crazy" for doing steep slips to land.

The early straight tail Cessnas slipped quite well. The later models have little rudder authority primarily because they have little rudders.
 
I slip every landing in the RV-6A

I slip every landing I think. It's just a tool and I use it but I do not go slow in the slip. I use it for altitude fine tuning and gross corrections in special cases but I give myself a good margin of speed to keep all surfaces flying. Maybe a fine little tweak on very short final at low altitude at 65 kts but my comfort level is 85 kts and power on if my senses tell me I am near the edge.

Bob Axsom
 
I find that my -6 will go into a great slip initially, but it won't stay there. If I give it full rudder I have to cross control with the ailerons to keep it on the centerline. That brings the nose down far enough that I start accelerating and the plane wants to straighten out again. I don't need to do it all that often, maybe I just need more practise. :)
 
Part of it is technique. If you've got full flaps, a full slip, and still aren't coming down fast enough, it seems odd to blame the aircraft.

Just sayin'....

Let's get some rate of descent numbers in this configuration. Add in power setting and indicated airspeed.
 
I didn't mean to start an argument, but I really enjoyed sitting back and watching. :D Anyways, thanks all, I feel better about the slip now. I've also just completed my transition training. Man, do I like the way it flies! And slips will remain part of my tool-box...
 
The RV-4, 6, 7, 8 & 9 slip well. And the technique is very valuable in specific scenarios, with CS or FP.

Observations based on actual PIC (~1700 hrs) flying experience in -4, -6, -7, -8, & -9; CS & FP.
 
Slips rock!

I always like a plane that slips well ... I learned on a PA-28, which actually does pretty well in a slip as long as the airspeed isn't too high. My favorite taildragger, the mighty Citabria, has no flaps and slipping becomes second nature. I do love a plane that can slip well .. I'm looking forward to see how my 7 does; very happy to see that the 6's do a good job!
 
I can't imagine needing to slip a 6 unless you Are FP.

Oddly, I used to slip regularly (loved it in the SuperCub, which came down like an elevator with full flaps and in a slip). In my CS 6 I almost never need to. Never even thought about it until reading this. Regularly come into the control zone at my home airport at 165kts and get asked to slow down, sometimes while also being asked to descend. Invariably, just pulling the black lever works. Good reason to go out and do some slips, just so it remains a trained option.
 
Slipping is fun

Learned the art of slipping with my C140. Never used flaps as it was easier to put in a slip and take it back out when back down to glide slope.

I frequently slip my FP 6A. I like to fly tight, small traffic patterns and slipping is a very effective way to lose altitude fast. Not as effective as on the 140 but still usefull as I see lots of people pushing the nose down to lose altitude and in an RV you pick up speed very quickly and end up floating down half the runway. I am pretty anal about hitting the numbers (and centerline) on EVERY landing and slipping makes that happen.
 
Do you slip agressive enough?

I love to slip my RV-6, when I need to. Several comments have been made about them not slipping well or not being needed for which I have a few thoughts. First if you have a constant speed prop you will have a lot more drag than if you have a fixed pitch when power is pulled back. I have a fixed pitch and occasionally find myself high on final (with full flaps) and an agressive slip gets me down with no problem. I can imagine that in the same situation with a constant speed a slip may not have been needed, just pull power. Second, many pilots have been taught to do very mild slips and are somewhat afraid to use it. I did not learn how to really rack her in until I started to fly gliders. In a glider I was shown how to stick the rudder to the floor and throw in full opposite stick to come down like an elevator. The RV does fine with a full, agressive slip, don't be afraid to try it, it's fun.

I think I will get a bumper sticker for my tail that states "I fly sideways, ask me how".:D
 
Slip slidin" away...

Every landing my brother!

V/R
Smokey

PS: My original RV4(and RVX)test flights were from my late friend Arvil Porters 800" one-way grass strip next to his shop where we completed my airplane. I had flown a three before and landed at Arvils many times in our Cessna 140 and 182. The takeoff was brisk and airborne in less than half the strip. After an hour above the clouds with the "RV grin" and chasing a few T-34C"s recovering to NAS Whiting I headed back to Arvils. My first landing in my 4 would have to be dead on as there was no go around. Once on short final you were committed. As I came over the power lines and lined up a bit high, I lightly slipped "The Bandit" all the way down to 10" above the grass at 60KIAS and straightened out in time to touch down in the first 100 feet on speed! Yee ha! Now, to do 16 more just like it today....:)
 
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If you're going to slip the plane, then up at a safe altitude, practice stalling it in a slip. What you want to see are what the warning signs are, and what happens if you go past the warning signs to the actual stall.

Also worth checking is the altitude needed for recovery.

Dave
 
Yesterday (10-6-13)

Returning non-stop to Fayetteville, Arkansas from the race in Waupaca, Wisconsin (northwest of Oshkosh) with standard 38 gallons capacity. I have a new EI fuel flow gauge and EI fuel quantity gages (that Jeanine and I calibrated when we built the plane). That new gauge is worth its weight in gold. It was a bad weekend weather wise but we finally got the race in on Sunday, after the folks in Waupaca got home from church, starting at about 12:30 local time (CDT). I landed back at Waupaca after the race and refueled to start the trip home from PCZ to FYV. I felt there was a chance I could make it all the way so I took the direct route which I knew contained no restricted areas and no TFRs.

Scattered to broken clouds were starting to come back in at 3,000 but it was clear beneath them (it was low ceiling and visibility for the three days I had been there before Sunday). I took off and set my course at 210 magnetic direct on TruTrak and Altrac engaged at 2,500 ft. The trip became overcast with light rain and at one point I was forced down to 800 ft AGL to stay below the clouds but nothing worse than that. South of Mexico, Missouri things improved greatly but I was limited to 4,500 MSL. The Springfield Class C air space caused a problem because the top was right there at the cloud base. I contemplated calling them and asking for a transition directly through the center but my independent nature resisted that so I set a course for Neosho, Missouri knowing they had self service fuel and the price is supposed to be good.

When I cleared the outer ring I shot a trial flight plan direct to FYV and determined that it was just within the range of the tank I was using based on the 9.3 GPH burn rate and I had 4 gallons in the other tank still. I decided to proceed direct to FYV clear of the Class C. The tank I was on dropped to 3 gallons in route and then 0 with the red light (it is a little bothersome that the last 2 gallons is obscured by this gauge logic but I understand the rationale and thats how it works). I chose not to run it dry which is an option but instead switched to the other tank which still had the green light on and showed 4 gallons on the display. As I cruised down by Rogers and Springdale on the east side the XNA Class C airspace, the yellow warning light came on for the active tank and the display was 3 gallons. Not a problem range wise but FYV sets down in a flat area surrounded by part of the Ozark Mountains and is not visible until you get there. There was no way I was going to give up one inch of my 4,500 MSL at that point.

As luck would have it the winds were light but they were using 34 instead of 16 as I approached from the north.

Two pilots from SkyVenture flight school and a Bonanza called for taxi from the ramp (they use the tower frequency for everything at FYV even though there is a ground frequency). I could see the conflict/complication coming up so I called the tower at 7 miles and closed my communication with the words "minimum fuel" because even though I was sure everything would work out to a satisfactory completion, I could not risk getting into a fuel emergency situation. The tower operator asked if I said minimum fuel and I confirmed the declaration. As I continued on at cruise settings he called back and confirmed my altitude and at that time I saw the airport WAAAY DOWN THERE. He cleared me to land on 16 and I slipped it down to complete my end of the deal with no power required and no anxiety about having to land long or go around at the 1200 ft elevation airport.

It is a tool, that is different from a crab and you have to understand the concept or have a feel for it but you certainly should know how to use it and not be uncomfortable with it in an RV-6.

Bob Axsom
 
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Thanks for the story!

Hey Bob, thanks for the story.
Wow, it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on your aircraft and it's performance. I'm not sure I'm familiar enough yet, with my new plane to be trusting the fuel flow numbers to that extent though. I have been checking the fuel remaining numbers against what I get "sticking the tanks" at the end of each flight and so far, they have been spot on, exactly the same. (Technology is a wonderful thing)
Anyway, it's nice to know that an extended slip from altitude works so well to allow putting the plane right where you need it to be, no matter the reason.
Thanks to everyone who shared their experiences and opinions! That's what makes this site so great.
Jim
 
Extended slips

Returning non-stop to Fayetteville, Arkansas from the race in Waupaca, Wisconsin (northwest of Oshkosh) with standard 38 gallons capacity. I have a new EI fuel flow gauge and EI fuel quantity gages (that Jeanine and I calibrated when we built the plane). That new gauge is worth its weight in gold. It was a bad weekend weather wise but we finally got the race in on Sunday, after the folks in Waupaca got home from church, starting at about 12:30 local time (CDT). I landed back at Waupaca after the race and refueled to start the trip home from PCZ to FYV. I felt there was a chance I could make it all the way so I took the direct route which I knew contained no restricted areas and no TFRs.

Scattered to broken clouds were starting to come back in at 3,000 but it was clear beneath them (it was low ceiling and visibility for the three days I had been there before Sunday). I took off and set my course at 210 magnetic direct on TruTrak and Altrac engaged at 2,500 ft. The trip became overcast with light rain and at one point I was forced down to 800 ft AGL to stay below the clouds but nothing worse than that. South of Mexico, Missouri things improved greatly but I was limited to 4,500 MSL. The Springfield Class C air space caused a problem because the top was right there at the cloud base. I contemplated calling them and asking for a transition directly through the center but my independent nature resisted that so I set a course for Neosho, Missouri knowing they had self service fuel and the price is supposed to be good.

When I cleared the outer ring I shot a trial flight plan direct to FYV and determined that it was just within the range of the tank I was using based on the 9.3 GPH burn rate and I had 4 gallons in the other tank still. I decided to proceed direct to FYV clear of the Class C. The tank I was on dropped to 3 gallons in route and then 0 with the red light (it is a little bothersome that the last 2 gallons is obscured by this gauge logic but I understand the rationale and thats how it works). I chose not to run it dry which is an option but instead switched to the other tank which still had the green light on and showed 4 gallons on the display. As I cruised down by Rogers and Springdale on the east side the XNA Class C airspace, the yellow warning light came on for the active tank and the display was 3 gallons. Not a problem range wise but FYV sets down in a flat area surrounded by part of the Ozark Mountains and is not visible until you get there. There was no way I was going to give up one inch of my 4,500 MSL at that point.

As luck would have it the winds were light but they were using 34 instead of 16 as I approached from the north.

Two pilots from SkyVenture flight school and a Bonanza called for taxi from the ramp (they use the tower frequency for everything at FYV even though there is a ground frequency). I could see the conflict/complication coming up so I called the tower at 7 miles and closed my communication with the words "minimum fuel" because even though I was sure everything would work out to a satisfactory completion, I could not risk getting into a fuel emergency situation. The tower operator asked if I said minimum fuel and I confirmed the declaration. As I continued on at cruise settings he called back and confirmed my altitude and at that time I saw the airport WAAAY DOWN THERE. He cleared me to land on 16 and I slipped it down to complete my end of the deal with no power required and no anxiety about having to land long or go around at the 1200 ft elevation airport.

It is a tool, that is different from a crab and you have to understand the concept or have a feel for it but you certainly should know how to use it and not be uncomfortable with it in an RV-6.

Bob Axsom

Great write up. It sounds like an unusual arrival with minimum fuel and I assume an extended slip from a fairly high altitude. Do you consider which tank you are using when deciding which direction to slip? I frequently slip my Cessna 120 but have not figured out what combination of fuel quantity and slip duration will un-port the fuel pick-up. I frequently slipped my Bonanza but it had baffled fuel cells so I didn't worry to much about un-porting. Just curious.
 
Fuel supply is never a concern for me once I reach to point of slipping

No, I usually bank to the left for visibility but where I was coming from there was no risk of not making it because of unporting a fuel pick up or loss of power. That is always the case in my slipping action which I do to burn off excess altitude. If it is a normal approach from some distance I fly level until I get to the point where I want to get down then I bank over to lose whatever amount of lift I want (like reducing the wingspan) and opposite rudder for directional control until I see what I want then come out of the slip. I never do a long low drag it in approach. I try to get to a point where I can glide in if I lose power then burn off the excess with a slip even when I do a standard left traffic pattern entry. I come in high on downwind and abeam the numbers I roll up on the inboard wing and put in opposite rudder and steep slip around base and final in one continuos curve to rollout, decelerate, flare and land if possible. Traffic sometimes doesn't permit that. Even on a long straight in approach I carry extra altitude and slip it as I approach the runway to set things up for a soft arrival on the approach end of the runway after I have it made.

Bob Axsom

P.S. I think I may have met you when Jeanine and I flew up to visit Kansas City and we tied down at Lee's Summit. We were offered space in the EAA hangar during our stay - but I refused (that's just me). It was very convenient for us to land at the Lee's Summit airport and nearby Kansas City and Truman's Presidential Library in Independence make a fantastic tourist destination. I do not know why but until we did our research and trip planning I had no idea that it was such a fantastic place to visit. The WWI museum and the one art museum that we got to visit (of several there) are exceptional (and yes we had visited the Prado in Madrid and the Louvre in Paris among others). Jeanine was born in St. Louis and I worked and lived there for over 20 years so maybe we were a little prejudiced without knowing it.

Oskosh 2005
JBBBDOSH_zpsd63beb3d.jpg


B. A.
 
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I cross check the gauges real time and post flight

Hey Bob, thanks for the story.
Wow, it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on your aircraft and it's performance. I'm not sure I'm familiar enough yet, with my new plane to be trusting the fuel flow numbers to that extent though. I have been checking the fuel remaining numbers against what I get "sticking the tanks" at the end of each flight and so far, they have been spot on, exactly the same. (Technology is a wonderful thing)
...
Jim

I have a little over 1150 hrs on the airplane and I am the only one that has ever flown it. The EI gauges are very reliable. I know the last 2 gallons in each tank do not show up on the digital displays even though I have ran the tanks dry and verified the the engine gets it all.

I have flown the airplane all over the country in short wing race, mid wing long race and long wing travel configurations since March of 2004 and I do not like to make enroute fuel stops any more than necessary so I established a fuel management schedule 1=0.5 hr; 2=1hr; 1=1hr; 2=0.5hr; 1=0.3; 2=0.3 to empty tanks (main tanks only configuration). This was repeatedly tested on trips, at WOT, 2450 RPM, leaned 100 F ROP EGT Cyl #4. I was not dominated by intense thoughts of fuel economy. Gradually I made mods to get the airplane flying faster until I ran short on ideas. My friends Red Hamilton and Marilyn Boese invited me out to their home in Fort Bragg, CA to put in high compression pistons and approach speed increases from the thrust end of the 4 force picture. It worked but the fuel burn rate increased as well and that is when I became interested in fuel flow because my old fuel management schedule was not usuable anymore. The fuel quantity gauges still performed exactly as they had before so they provide a reliable indication of the current state that is very mature and familiar to me - I know when I am short on fuel for example with a 1 gallon display precision and accuracy above 2 gallons remaining in each tank. I usually try to stay above 4 gallons remaining but the new fuel flow gauge allows me to see how fast I am burning the fuel and cut it back if necessary as well as predict when the tank will be dry in a pinch. When I refueled at FYV after the trip back from Waupaca Sunday the fuel remaining in the airplane was 3.8 gallons and at the 9.3 gallon burn rate that is a 24+ minutes endurance remaining after landing and taxiing to the fuel pump. The engine run/flight time to get back home was 3.9 hours including the idle and taxi time at both airports at a burn rate down in the 1-2 GPH range. 34.2 fuel used means the average burn rate was 8.77 GPH which I am satisfied supports the cruise flight burn rate display. It seems very accurate. I have also found that when I get the engine leaned in the correct range of max power I can use the HP function to find the actual peak power mixture to 1 horsepower precision and actually see the change in ground speed in the GPS directly related to the HP display on the EI fuel flow gauge. Like I said, "worth it's weight in gold" in more ways than one.

Bob Axsom
 
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Nothing - You are correct.

I whipped out an answer on a calculator long after the flight and I was so happy to see greater than a half hour I ran with it. I'll correct that.

Bob Axsom
 
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