IFR training

[BobTurner]

Originally Posted by uk_figs

My head hurts again
Figs

Exactly. The problem is that there are no clear answers coming out of Washington.

[Mark33]

Originally Posted by BobTurner

Exactly. The problem is that there are no clear answers coming out of Washington.

Imagine that. 🙄

[gmcjetpilot]

Originally Posted by msoliday

hello all, I have a flight design ctls lsa and would like to do ifr training in it but not fly in imc. With a garmin sl 30 nav/com radio, hs34 , Dynon d100, garmin 660 gps, I think I can train with that and an instructor.

OK all sounds OK with caveat (I am a CFI-Inst who completed about 10 instrument students, but have not delved into the LSA/IFR topic until recently. I have not completed an instrument student in two decades and most GA planes were steam driven at the time and GPS only approaches were a dream. It was ILS, LOC, VOR, NDB. However I am still a current CFI and catching up on the topic as I am starting to teach again, RV transition training, Flight reviews, Inst Comp Checks... I may start doing full ratings but for now I don't have time. But this LSA thing has been my focus as this is becoming more common and spooled up on the topic.

I am sure you can do "instrument training" in a LSA in VMC conditions using a view limiting device. You can fly all maneuvers with sole reference to instruments and "ATTITUDE INSTRUMENT FLYING". You can do that 100%. Part of your training is not flying approaches but flying precisely by reference to instruments and all basic flight maneuvers, holding heading and altititude, level flightm turns, climbs, descents, speed transitions, constant ROD.. on and on, not procedures. If you can do all that well, it makes procedures easy. That you can hone to perfection even without an instructor.

Of the 40 hours for the instrument rating you only need 15 hours of "DUAL" you can practice to your hearts content with a qualified safety pilot to look for traffic. YOU MUST HAVE A SAFETY PILOT WHO IS CURRENT AND QUALIFED TO FLY IN THE OTHER SEAT AND THEY KNOW THEIR JOB IS MONITERING THE AIRSPACE AND KEEPING THE PLANE SAFE. You just log it as instrument time simulated. It goes towards the rating. Some elect to fly with a CFI-I the whole time. I did self practice with my buddy in our Co owned Piper Tomahawk. We did approaches in VFR and even called tower. Since we only had VOR/LOC/MB we were limited to procedures. By the time I started renting the C172 with the CFI-I learning ILS was easy. After I got my rating I used the Tomahawk plane for actual IFR flight planes in IMC going to fields with LOC and VOR approaches. I commuted to work about 30 miles away for a year. In pacific north west I got a lot of actual instrument time


Procedures is another grey area but you can do some (in VFR conditions). However EQUIP is required to fly those approaches. However like my Tomahawk experience you can do practice (not logged) approaches. Again it is proficiency not doing 1000 ILS. If your Attitude Instrument Flying skills are sharp procedures are procedures. It does take practice however. I will give you my favorite THE FIVE T's. Turn, Time, Transition, Twist, Talk.... This comes in handy entering or exiting a procedure turn, and IAP fix or FAF... you can do it every time you transition from one part of an approach to another. IT GETS BUSY in the clouds... you don't have time to pick up a read a checklist single pilot. GUMPS of course Gas Undercarriage Mixture Prop Safety (seat belts, landing lights).

Another big part is communications, asking and receiving complicated fligt clearance or approach clearance. A good CFI can help you get good at that sitting at a table in the FBO. You don't need to learn COM in an airplane with engine running burning gas.

Inst Procedures (Departures, Enroute, Initial and final approach, missed approach, holds) eventually have to be practice in real time in the ATC system. However you can simulate this with a good instructor. They can make up approaches by sole reference to instruments using your non approved GPS. You can simulate the procedures but not log them. The FAA has flipped back and forth about this and say you can't do it? Why? It is not against a FAR. But as I said it does not "count". However there is no QUANITY of approaches to get your Inst Rating... only quality.

To fly approaches, log it for your rating you need to have suitable equipment. This is a grey area in that your 660 I believe is a portable NOT approved for IFR operations, but it can be used as a REFERENCE. You can use it in VFR conditions and get the skills as a simulation. Again at some point you will need to get your self to an approved simulator or a plane fully equipped.

Originally Posted by msoliday

I do not plan on filing any ifr flight plans in the ctls for training. However, flight school says i cannot use a portable gps for dme. I agree for flying in imc but do not see anything definitive for training. I have read 91.205 and AC 90-108. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Correct. You can NOT file or fly in actual IMC conditions or under INST FLIGHT RULES or flight plan. However you can train in VFR conditions.

The flight school is correct. You can not use the GPS to DME. You can NOT use it at all for instrument approach as it is not TSO'ed. However you could use it as a training tool and practice. Some schools will balk and say it is not the REAL DEAL. OK they are right you have to do the REAL DEAL at some point and learn that avionics and fly by the standards of the PTS or ACS. They don't want to deal with this simulated stuff. Again FAA has said things over the last 40 years about making up approaches for training that are not real but give the same learning points. My opinion if you are NOT breaking any FAR you are legal. Is it VALUE added. Yes to a certain point and great introduction. However you have to get to an airplane that is fully suited up, full hair and teeth to fly IFR in IMC with you and your family, and be prescient. Flying your LSA to gain experience for your rating, you can't LOG the approaches but you can simulate the procedure and practice them.


NOTE: FAA calls it "Advanced Cockpits". We have a wide range of cockpits from steam driven (Vac gyros, basic radio/nav circa 1980's and earlier) and GARMIN G1000 dual autopilot. You have to learn the equipment as well as have ATTITUDE INSTRUMENT FLYING skills.

There are three types of IAP's: precision approach (PA), approach with vertical guidance (APV), and non-precision approach (NPA). Precision is ILS. You can't do that. You don't have a ILS Loc and GS or Markers/DME.

APV, for example is a Localizer Performance with Vertical Guidance (LPV) GPS approach. You can't do that for real or simulated, unless the Garmin 600 can give you vertical guidance. In no case can you use it for actual IMC or IFR and can't log it even VFR.

All you can do is non precision approaches, again simulated. That is your GPS approach. NDB approaches and transitions are no longer required and I don't think there are many left except in Canada and Alaska, if any.

At some point to finish your rating, get the required training and take a practical test you will likely need to transition into another plane.

GET the PTS / ACS for instrument rating and read and understand it inside and out. It will tell you what you NEED.

[gmcjetpilot]

Simulator to the rescue:

"A maximum of 30 hours may be performed in a flight simulator or flight training device if the training was accomplished in accordance with part 142, and a maximum of 20 hours if not accomplished in accordance with part 142. An aviation training device may also be used to log a maximum of 10 hours towards the rating." AOPA

Go buy a block and if not maximize it USE it for your training. In my retirement I am considering buying an approved simulator and giving instruction. I have not done it, but it can be done for less than $12K. I love teaching in the SIM. I no longer am trying to "build hours" like I was when was a young CFI starting my career. Look into it. Even if you have to travel and camp out for say a week or two, buy a block of time wet (sim and instructor) and fly two flights a day, 1 to 1.5 hours max, for several days and get, 10, 15, 20 hours. Don't do LONG sim sessions. You get tired. Short ones are great. Once you get up to speed you don't have to waste time starting, taxiing, taking off. Just get pinched into the airspace and start doing "Airwork" and approaches. ONE caveat. No motion. Many pilots have crashed due to spatial disorientation. A recent crash of a PC12 in air ambulance operations crashed recently. It is suspect they got disorientated. The list is long. ONE REAL thing you need and will get in the actual plane is UNUSAL attitudes... You put your head in your lap and the instructor will pull some G's and put the plane in a steep climb, dive both straight and high bank. You have to recover under the hood. I would NOT recommend you do this with a safety pilot unless they really know what they are doing. YOU NEVER want to simulate an emergency with a real emergency. As a dirty CFI trick I would do steep turns and reverse and do steep turn in opposite direction and abruptly return to straight, level flight in trim. I say "YOU GOT IT".... if they started just moving the stick/yoke I knew they did not get the two big lessons.
#1 TRUST YOUR INSTRUMENTS...
#2 SCAN, CROSS CHECK, INTERPRET, CONTROL (THAT IS THE ESSIENCE OF ATTITUDE INST FLYING). YOU FIRST SCAN & CROSS/CHECK & and INTEREPT, THEN CONTROL.... You don't go straight to step 4 control... My students got it. Even though they FELT like they were in a steep turn and climbing, the instrument was straight and level. Scan/cross check is easier now with EFIS and all the data in one display. We TRUST our life to it. In the old day the T&B or TC (electric) was scanned to cross check with AI / DC (Vac). The VSI and AS (Pitot Static secondary pitch indication) cross checked the AI. For you EFIS drivers having an independent attitude indication instrument in your scan is critical.

The simulator has to meet specific FAA requirements. The quality of these approved Sims for IFR currency and training has gone up and cost down to the point it is economically feasible for a flight school to buy them. I have given over a 1000 hours of training in sims both airline full flight Sims and FRASCA types back in the day. They can be very efficient, effective but the instructor has to make it REAL throwing in real ATC commutations, setting up LOFTS (Line Orientated Flight Trainings Scenarios) suitable for GA that make the training REAL and meaningful. The great part is if you want to fly another approach you can fly back and start over or reset it outside the IF or FAF or FAP and do it again. You can dial in winds and have emergencies.
https://sky4buy.com/img/Simulator-Fl...65037884/3.jpg

Whatever you do try and include Simulators. It will enhance your training, shorten it and likely save you a ton of gas which is not cheap.

To get the instrument rating of the 40 hours only 15 hours is dual. As I said you can fly your LSA with a safety pilot and log your hood time, practice climbs, level offs, descents, descents level off, turns to headings, tracking headings, constant rate of descents, descending turns, climbing turns... until your ATTITUDE INST FLYING skills are sharp. Scan, cross check, interpret control... (The FAA Inst Flying Handbook Advisory Circular is very good to this day.) https://www.sheppardair.com/download/faa-h-8083-15.pdf

The point is YOU can train yourself by reading and even some on line programs. Some PC level software can be a good start but it does not count.

You eventually have to fly a plane with all the required equipment you will take your check ride in. You will have to learn that advanced cockpit (if it has one) or learn the steam gauges. That is what I did... 15 hours dual in a mighty C172 and 25 hours in the Piper Tomahawk with my buddy as safety pilot over many months. You will have to take the written and be recommended for the rating. You will also need a current medical.

It is by far one of the MOST satisfying ratings and you will notice a mark improvement in your VFR flying. THE DOWN SIDE... Once I got the rating living in the North West at the time, I realized how limited the planes were I had available for "hard IFR". To go East you had to fly high over Cascades, mountains with possible (often) icing or high winds and turbulance. The MEA were not crazy high, below O2 mask levels. Still not something to be done casually in really low IFR weather. Later I flew part 135 in light twins with "known ice" equip. It was the most scary flying I ever did flying Seattle to Spokane. Then there is CONVECTIVE weather. Even if living in middle, flat lands of the country you don't want to be IMC in and around thunder storms. Today we have XM weather and ADS-B "in" with current weather in flight. We have ForeFlight for preflight and inflight planning. Also many planes more than EVER have autopilots with advanced EFIS. Flying SINGLE PILOT by hand was ridiculous, like rubbing belly and patting head while jumping on one leg. I survived because a C172 or C182 is pretty stable. Autopilot is a big help. Bottom line even though you have the ability, the plane may not. RV in IFR? Yep lots do it successfully. RV's are "stable" and responsive. However RV's are slick. If you get into unusual attitude speed builds fast. Personally IFR single pilot single engine is not my preference. I will do it for limited reasons, enroute let down, departing from below VFR to better weather are great examples of LIGHT IFR. I always like to file IFR to busy areas like LA. Far easier to do IFR arrival than VFR.

That will be $100 please... or is it one million dollars?
https://youtu.be/EJR1H5tf5wE

[uk_figs]

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot

Simulator to the rescue:
RV in IFR? Yep lots do it successfully. RV's are "stable" and responsive. However RV's are slick. If you get into unusual attitude speed builds fast.

That will be $100 please... or is it one million dollars?
https://youtu.be/EJR1H5tf5wE

I am working on the instrument rating and decided to do it in my -7 as that is the plane I will be flying under the rating. The -7 has equipment that can fly the approaches etc. on rails but I am finding that when hand flying, particularly when in windy or turbulent conditions (a fact of life here in Oklahoma) the "responsiveness" nature of the RV makes me chase the needles with less than satisfactory approach profile results (my instructor says it is fine but I am not happy with the results), is there a technique that can improve this other than practice?
Figs

[BobTurner]

Practice. In general you cannot have both ‘stability’ and ‘responsiveness’. When you get more of one, you tend to get less of the other. e.g., a 182 is stable but hardly responsive. And a -7 is responsive but with less stability. A steady wind should not really affect your flying. But varying winds, gusts, turbulence all do. When you hit some turbulence, your AI should show how much of a bank and roll rate excursion there has been, and your VSI should show excursions from desired vertical speed. With practice your brain will tell your stick hand, without consciously thinking about it, what direction(s) and how much control pressure(s) to apply to first stop, then fix, the excursion. When someone is early in their training, they do have to think about it, and this raises the work load, so your flying may not be up to the standards you’d like. Practice, and staying proficient, are the keys.
BTW, a small correction to the earlier post: a safety pilot does not have to be ‘fully qualified’ to fly from the right seat. For example, in a ‘high performance’ airplane, (e.g., rv-10), the safety pilot does not need to hold a high performance endorsement.

[Mile High Relic]

Originally Posted by uk_figs

I am working on the instrument rating and decided to do it in my -7 as that is the plane I will be flying under the rating. The -7 has equipment that can fly the approaches etc. on rails but I am finding that when hand flying, particularly when in windy or turbulent conditions (a fact of life here in Oklahoma) the "responsiveness" nature of the RV makes me chase the needles with less than satisfactory approach profile results (my instructor says it is fine but I am not happy with the results), is there a technique that can improve this other than practice?
Figs

This was 10+ years ago, but while adding an IPC after finishing my transition training, the instructor suggested holding the stick with just two fingers with my wrist resting on my leg. Basically self limiting the amount of "throw" I could apply to the stick. It is hard to hit the PTT like that, but you don't bob and weave as much.