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Liberty Ship tail camera

[WARNING=on soapbox]
I guess we are all prudes then. I've had too many close encounters (even when on an IFR clearance) with learjets coming out of those kinds of clouds to not support the same thot.

Guys, I know there is lots of fun to be had, but please, be careful. We are all feeling the effects of insurance rates rising due to accidents, not to mention the loss of life associated with them.

Unless you were on an IFR clearance, and even then it would have had to be a block clearance and then I doubt the controller would have allowed acro, me suspects your flight, while fun, posed a serious flight risk to others in the air... As one of those others, I would suggest prudence next time.... :)

[off soapbox]

Please take this in the spirit intended. I love all this camera work and I love the scenery, but I want us all to be safe!

ps. yes I know it's hard to judge separation from the video, but ..... :)
 
Please read 91.155

I am just glad that I don't fly in Florida, or I would be afraid to leave the ground. This kind of activity is a hazard to us all.

Kent
 
Liberty Ship,
I enjoyed the video! Thanks for posting.

The previous posts reminded me of my PPL checkride. The examiner asked if I had ever flown through a cloud. I thought it was a trick question and said "NO". He proceded to take the controls and fly right through a big one!

I don't think what you were doing is much worse than weaving your way up through a scattered layer. We've all done that. I find it difficult to measure the distance from a cloud :D

Mark
 
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this is my take on cameras on airplanes. Very... I won't say it. But this is what can happen. An faa inspector sees it and walla your busted. I think videos are great, but don't be doing any infractions. I have a saying, "what they(faa) don't know about you won't hurt them, but what they do know about you WILL hurt"
 
allbee said:
(snip)...."what they(faa) don't know about you won't hurt them, but what they do know about you WILL hurt"

As my wife would say "I'm calling BS on this statement".... it's actually these kinds of statements that give pilots a bad name. In fact, to even think that suggests that you might do it and that suggests that you'd let your guard down just that little bit. None of us should allow that to happen...

And no I didn't practice preaching at a holiday inn express last night... But seriously, this is serious business to be taken just as serious! Ok, enough of this, I've got an airplane to finish and I'm soooooo close...
 
Let's be careful

Many times what appears to be illegal in a video is not. I have had people contact me about revealing too much when, in fact, I was perfectly legal. I think that is why Paul Dye goes to pains, each and every time he talks about his cloud aerobatics, to talk about the block IFR clearance (I can't imagine why ATC would care if you are doing aerobatics).

That having been said, there are several things on the video that are very clearly illegal, but that is between the pilot and the FAA as far as I'm concerned. The aircraft owner is very easily identifiable, but perhaps not the pilot.

But none of that is what bothers me. I'm just afraid that with all these videos we are approaching a "watch this" mentality and I'm afraid of what might happen in the future as people try to top each other. I like the videos and plan to try making them myself but I plan to emphasize beauty and grace rather than thrills. An example of the kind of thing I prefer was recently posted by New Mexico jet glider pilot Bob Carlton. Pretty flying and scenery, good music, doesn't scare me. http://www.silentwingsairshows.com/video/jet_sailplane_sunset.wmv
 
I am not going to judge anyone with out knowing all the facts, and I am not going to preach, because I'm no good at it (very pretty video by the way Liberty!).....but I worry about the same thing that Larry is talking about - which is one reason that I really don't plan to do much more in the vein of shooting and posting these kind of videos. Like Larry pointed out, when I have done this around clouds, I have done it with a clearance - unfortunately, the nearby friendly approach control where I was able to get a pop-up block has been taken over by the monolithic Houston Approach Control, and those friendly days are gone.....

Use good judgment and fly safe!

Paul
 
kentb said:
This kind of activity is a hazard to us all.
Amen, Kent. This kind of activity is really, really fun. It's also really, really unsafe and illegal when performed VFR. I certainly hope this video was filmed while in an IFR block altitude, but somehow, I doubt it. If you post a video like this in a public forum, you're asking for great scrutiny, so it's a good idea to label it carefully as such, if you don't want negative comments.

I've flown acro around towering cumulus clouds many times before, under two specific conditions -- 1. In a MOA, on an IFR flight plan, in a military aircraft. 2. In a civilian airplane, on an IFR flight plan, with a block altitude. Both times, IFR. Very important distinction.

If you do this stuff VFR, you'd just better hope you don't meet up with someone coming around the cloud the opposite direction, doing the same thing. I won't even get into the low-altitude aileron roll over the water...

The caption that appears at 4:57 in the film says it all: "Gotta show off." People who fly around clouds like this while VFR are Future Smoking Holes. Please don't do it. It just encourages others to do it.

[Rant mode off]
 
Wait one minute....

n5lp said:
Many times what appears to be illegal in a video is not. I have had people contact me about revealing too much when, in fact, I was perfectly legal. I think that is why Paul Dye goes to pains, each and every time he talks about his cloud aerobatics, to talk about the block IFR clearance (I can't imagine why ATC would care if you are doing aerobatics).

That having been said, there are several things on the video that are very clearly illegal, but that is between the pilot and the FAA as far as I'm concerned.
I think that more the the FAA would have an interest here. If I were to be going under that cloud (500 ft below) when the pilot dived through, it could create a lot of interest (NTSB, insurance companies, families of the deceased, etc).

n5lp said:
But none of that is what bothers me. I'm just afraid that with all these videos we are approaching a "watch this" mentality and I'm afraid of what might happen in the future as people try to top each other. I like the videos and plan to try making them myself but I plan to emphasize beauty and grace rather than thrills. An example of the kind of thing I prefer was recently posted by New Mexico jet glider pilot Bob Carlton. Pretty flying and scenery, good music, doesn't scare me. http://www.silentwingsairshows.com/video/jet_sailplane_sunset.wmv
I agree that the videos are great and from the just the visually effect it was great. But it definiatly impacted safety of anyone sharing that air space.

I think that this pilot forgot that he was in civilian airspace. Or maybe he wasn't. Tell me that he had permission to fly his RV in a MOA and then I am all for him. In fact if I could get a MOA to go play in I would love it.

Don't forget even if ATC gives you an IFR block, that doesn't keep VFR traffic out of the block. There could be legal VFR pilots close to those clouds and if you plow through one and hit something on the other side, there will be H.ll to pay.


Kent
 
kentb said:
...I think that this pilot forgot that he was in civilian airspace. Or maybe he wasn't. Tell me that he had permission to fly his RV in a MOA and then I am all for him. In fact if I could get a MOA to go play in I would love it...
I'm guessing you meant to say restricted area instead of MOA. I fly in MOAs on just about every flight, but no permission is necessary and the rules are the same as they are outside MOAs.
 
Right your are Larry.

n5lp said:
I'm guessing you meant to say restricted area instead of MOA. I fly in MOAs on just about every flight, but no permission is necessary and the rules are the same as they are outside MOAs.

Although if they are hot, the jet jocks could be doing some interesting stuff, but they would be staying clear of the clouds, IE VFR.

Kent
 
Alen,
I think what you are saying is BS. I see it all the time, pilots with cams and they are doing infractions. If the FAA see's it on this site they ARE busted. I'll say it again. What the FAA doesn't know won't hurt them, but what THEY know about YOU will HURT YOU. Doesn't imply anything about what I do or not. I know people that have openly displayed their stupidity either in print or video and BAM they get busted. The internet is great, but it also has prying eyes.
 
kentb said:
Although if they are hot, the jet jocks could be doing some interesting stuff, but they would be staying clear of the clouds, IE VFR.

Kent

Is this true? Admittedly its been a few years (well, more than a few) but military pilots used to operate IFR in MOA's all the time. Maybe things have changed.

-John
 
Jarhead

Hey, don't be so hard on this guy. He's either Navy or Marines. If he's a Navy guy, he's probably busy protecting our country and hasn't gotten around to reading the FAR's. If he's a Marine, nobody's read them to him yet!
 
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You said it...

Yukon said:
Hey, don't be so hard on this guy. He's either Navy or Marines. If he's a Navy guy, he's probably busy protecting our country and hasn't gotten around to reading the FAR's. If he's a Marine, nobody's read them to him yet!
Not me... :rolleyes:

Kent
 
Video camera test

I guess I feel compelled to respond to some of the negative reactions to my tail camera video. First let me say that I posted this video on YouTube so that my RV buddies could get a feel for some of the other camera options and views that may be available. In my RV-7 (and in other aircraft) I have used several cameras including hand held and fixed mounted video cameras operated from inside the cockpit. They both have pluses but the fixed mount requires a clean windscreen (free from bugs), and the hand held requires someone else to fly while I take the pictures. This bullet tail mounted video system is totally hands off and has a very small lens (small bug target). The camera is fixed inside the tail cap and requires no view finder, only a recorder in the cockpit that must be turned on and off. The results were put to music and edited by me for the pleasure of our group.
As of this writing 266 guys (or gals) have viewed it (and hopefully enjoyed it) but there are a couple guys that are very upset at the video?s production. Several guys have implied I am a reckless pilot and others wish I would comply with the old Air Force directive that forbids cameras in airplanes. I?m sure these guys opinions are genuine and based on their own frame of reference and flying experiences. Each of us have different backgrounds, exposures, and skill levels. One of the great things about our RV community is that we bring very different experiences to the table. I?m sure mine is very different from yours. Prior to every launch from the pointy end of the USS Saratoga (dating myself) I was issued a hand held camera. Unlike the USAF, the Navy was and is extremely camera friendly. One of my RV hangar mates never launches without one.
As for those of you builders that are upset with my ?acrobatics?, just wait. The RV is a very solid ?mild acrobatic? aircraft. The rolls in the video are very mild. For those of you that are not comfortable with that flight regime, please don?t expect the rest of us to comply with your comfort level. All of the air work in the video is well within my comfort zone. I always recommend pilots know their limits and stay inside their own envelope. After 35 years of flying ultralights, floats, GA aircraft, fighter/attack jets, and airliners my comfort zone may be very different from yours.
Finally, Ironflight was on to something when he said ?things may not be as they appear.? We had a run of severe clear weather in North Florida and I actually had to wait several days to get some clouds to form that I could use in the video that I could make look intimidating. Believe it or not the entire video was shot within about 1000 vertical feet in an area that I could clear visually. Some of the shots look like I was flying through nasty weather when, in fact, good looking cumulus clouds were very hard to find in my airspace. I actually could circle each one of the build ups to plan a run for different sun angles. Of course I went through a few clouds, but only after clearing the area and always knowing what was on the other side. All of the airspace was cleared and I was squawking a VFR code. I am lucky to have access to an area that is not encumbered by victor airways or IFR traffic.
I guess this response is really unnecessary but from the tone of some of the blogs I felt I must explain my techniques. I guess what I love about my RV is it?s versatility. I can fly aggressively and have great fun while some others can enjoy their RV in straight and level cross country flight and have just as much fun. I do not criticize any RV builder nor do I expect every one to run out a get a camera. Just enjoy the video, or turn it off. It was just a test run that I put to music. As for the Lancair guy that seems so upset with our RV flying, I can only invite him down for a beer. He can fly a straight-in ILS into ST. Augustine airport and I?ll fly over and pick him up and we?ll do aileron rolls all the way over to our grass strip at Dreamland.
Many thanks to you guys that said you enjoyed the video!
 
Liberty Ship said:
I actually could circle each one of the build ups to plan a run for different sun angles. Of course I went through a few clouds, but only after clearing the area and always knowing what was on the other side. All of the airspace was cleared and I was squawking a VFR code. I am lucky to have access to an area that is not encumbered by victor airways or IFR traffic.
Pat: My background is very similar to yours -- military fighter/attack pilot; 28 years of flying taildraggers and warbirds; current jet instructor pilot; current airline pilot; homebuilts; gliders, etc.

A couple of points:

1. I had no problem with the "aggressiveness" of the flying -- it was actually pretty tame.

2. Nobody can fault you for sticking to your own comfort level when doing acro and such. Your stick-and-rudder competence is evident in the video. Nice flying.

3. Nobody should find fault with having a video camera running while flying. Why would they? It's completely legal. (Yep, I know all about that old Air Force restriction on cameras in the cockpit -- caused, by the way, by a guy doing a rejoin in a single-seat A-7 while filming it all though the little viewfinder, and ramming his flight lead in the process... that's another story.)

However, when someone with your level of experience claims that he "cleared the area" first, and you "always knew what was on the other side," and "all the airspace was cleared," and the fact that your airspace is "unencumbered by IFR traffic," I have to raise my big, expensive pilot's watch over my cranium, because the BS is getting deep in here... :rolleyes:

You may fool a few 200-hour Private Pilots with that particular explanation, but you will not fool me and the other folks who know better.

The cloud-clearance regs are written in blood, my aviation brother. Some days, it sucks to comply with those regs, but temptation has led more than one great pilot to bad times. Don?t forget that there ARE ways to chase the clouds legally, as has been pointed out previously in this forum thread and elsewhere.

I think my biggest concern is the effect such videos have on the less-skilled pilot out there who might think he can get away with low altitude rolls and such, just so he can claim the latest "Cool Post of the Day" on YouTube. I think we ALL have to be concerned about that.

I LOVE the video -- I really do. I just don't like what it encourages.

Fly safe out there.
 
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I really did enjoy the video as well, but... either keep it in class G (not just away from victor airways), get a block IFR, or please avoid clouds. I've had a few close calls myself, even with two filed aircraft in marginal VFR and light IMC. I really couldn't watch the whole video just because I can't stand to see fellow pilots doing what we call 'pointless risk' activities.
 
Not funny

When we popped out of a cloud with an airliner full of passengers the VFR guy screwing around had his mouth open and was wearing Ray Ban sunglasses as he went past my windshield!!
NOT FUNNY!
 
IFR blocks

They don't keep out VFR traffic. That other guy (who may not even have a transponder) might be 500 ft under the cloud that you are zooming around. The only time an IFR block would mean that you should not have any VFR traffic is if it is solid IMC. Not fun for acro.

Another note for LibertyShip: You are definitely a more skilled pilot then I. I would love to be able to do what you did in your video, although I would not go so close to the clouds.

I also served in the Navy, but was not a pilot. During my tour I did some very risky thing. I put myself at risk as well as to others in my group. After all this is what we were being paid to do.
Now as a civilian I don't use my military standards to operate by. I follow the civilian rules.

You can do all the clearing of the area that you want, but you still didn't follow the rules. I don't want to be flying around a guy that can't follow the rule, or doesn't think that the rules apply to him.

Give it some though.

Kent
 
kentb said:
They don't keep out VFR traffic. That other guy (who may not even have a transponder) might be 500 ft under the cloud that you are zooming around. The only time an IFR block would mean that you should not have any VFR traffic is if it is solid IMC.
That's true, someone may be VFR, 500' under the clouds, with no transponder -- which means, of course, that ATC can't see them in order to call them out as traffic. Another good reason to think long and hard about the whole practice.
 
tail camera video

RV Flyers??.Before I (for the last time) respond to the venom, personal attacks, and threats that have been addressed to me on this web site, I first want to thank the RV guys that have overwhelmingly supported my video and have expressed interest in the system.
I must say I was warned about the self appointed FAR/Safety police that criticize first flight and other videos that make their way to DR?s web pages. I was a little na?ve when I provided the URL to this web page but I thought the gang might enjoy video. But when you open things to the public domain you must take all comers. I am a little disappointed in the indirect innuendoes that a few of you have made as to my competence and professionalism. If you really feel the need to ?instruct? me as to how I should create flying videos, or fly my RV for that matter, I am open to constructive input. I?ve had a lot of great instruction over the years and am willing to listen. Those of you that are compelled to scold me or threaten me please do it off these web pages. These pages have been a place for constructive inputs for RV builders and flyers. My message box is open and I will answer all mail and even provide my personal e-mail address. I only ask that you identify yourself, including your flying background. You know mine.
As I reviewed the video I really had to chuckle at how hard I had to work to make those clouds look so ominous. If you look at the cloud cover when I landed to can see what I was working with. But to those of you that know better, I have no response. I have done some really dumb things in airplanes over the last almost four decades but that video was not one of them. I'm not asking any you to fly my wing and I am not asking to fly yours. The joy of aviation is what we individually make of it. I?m sorry it so offended some of you. Pat
 
Liberty Ship said:
RV Flyers??.Before I (for the last time) respond to the venom, personal attacks, and threats that have been addressed to me on this web site

Pat,

I don't know what kind of *decoder* ring you have, but you need to trade it in. I didn't see *one* personal attack, in fact, had that occured, Doug would have removed it and scolded the sender.

I also see nothing but constructive comments, yes a few more pointed than others, but nothing that is offensive, personal, etc. Now I can't respond to any emails that you might have received, but at least the posts so far have been pretty benign.

However, I do offer one final comment as well... From your continued response, seeming to contend that you did nothing wrong.... I feel that you just don't get it. Nor do you care about the safety of your fellow pilot. I sincerely hope that you have a long and prosperous flying life and that the skills that you have learned serve you well. However, I do wish you'd take a little time to have an introspective and determine if "in the best interest of other pilots" your practices were appropriate. I suspect you'll find they were not as voice by many. However sometimes those rose colored glasses are a little hard to see thru.

Good luck and safe flying!
 
Federal Aviation Regulations

Pat,

I got tons of criticism here for test running my engine in my front yard! Get used to it! Having said that, I think you should read the FAR's and make an attempt to comply with them. When you decide not to comply, don't video it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5qgaxBg_UU

Love your video!
 
Pat,

Great video. I'd say that your past flying experiences and knowledge, military, et al, probably make you a MUCH safer pilot than 90% of the rest of us here...including some of the "holier than thou" respondents.

Mark
 
Yukon: It looked like something from the movie "Those Magnificient Men in Their Flying Machines"

Pat: What camera and lens was used for the tail CAM?
 
Pat,

I've flown with you before and am ready to go with you again..........
See you next meeting.....
 
I'd hate to be on the other side of the cloud that is all. Putting yourself at risk is fine, but putting other people at risk makes me cringe. I felt that in no way were my comments personal, and I felt that my critisim was constructive. Obviously, I've got plenty of ways for you to contact me in my signiture if you wish. I'll keep all my comments public, and if DR feels the need to delete them, he can at his lesure without offending me.

FWIW, I've almost been midaired by an RV coming out of the backside of a loop north of CCB here is socal, I know the airplane is based there and I think I know the pilot, I don't hold it against him for wanting to have a little fun, but he put me at risk that day when I was just flying by in my little 152, and that bothers me.
 
Liberty Ship said:
For those of you that are not comfortable with that flight regime, please don?t expect the rest of us to comply with your comfort level. All of the air work in the video is well within my comfort zone.

Pat,

First off that video is wonderfully put together, music and all, but...

You've completely missed the point of the criticism. Not one post said anything negative about your skills, training, ability, etc. The beef we have is that you decided that you could "interpret" the regs to suit your needs. While I wish you a long, safe flying career, I have no interest in your comfort zone. The fact that you don't feel like anyone's safety was compromised has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it. The rules are in place specifically so that I don't get to choose for you or vice-versa. I am a very low time guy and certainly no military pilot, but I am certain that there is no reg that says "clear of clouds unless you've flown around them and are convinced everything is ok".

One more thing. I see a lot of stupid aviation tricks these days, especially by experimental guys who should know better, and I find myself wondering how many more generations will be allowed to enjoy the freedom we take for granted today.
 
VFR = both pilots

osxuser said:
FWIW, I've almost been midaired by an RV coming out of the backside of a loop north of CCB here is socal, I know the airplane is based there and I think I know the pilot, I don't hold it against him for wanting to have a little fun, but he put me at risk that day when I was just flying by in my little 152, and that bothers me.

Stephen, am staying away from this thread per se, but just a note on your comment (and not meant in any disrespect other than making a general point about VFR flying) in your situation if it was a good VFR day (with no clouds obscuring your acro RV guy) then in theory both of you are putting the other at risk. Theoretically he should have seen you, but you also should have seen him too. (again this assumes he is not doing acro around clouds, etc.) Just making a point since you mentioned that you are low time, I am assuming that you are not yet involved in acro. My thought is that both of you missed each other until late in the guy's loop. He may have followed the regs, been 1500' or greater (unless otherwise waivered) and done clearing turns and may not have seen you, but as a VFR pilot, you are also responsible for seeing him. Low wing over high wing, etc. If he busted the cloud regs, then yes, absolutely he was at fault, but if doing acro in SKC conditions, then both are at fault in a situation like that. Fault is all academic during a mid-air though - doesn't much matter who is at fault if you are both dead....

But more importantly, glad you saw him in time and were able to maneuver out of the way.
 
Responsibility

szicree said:
I find myself wondering how many more generations will be allowed to enjoy the freedom we take for granted today.
Not to fan the flames, but this is the exact same question I ask myself when I see ads on Barnstormers that follow along these lines:

RV-* For Sale. 25.0 hours. This is my 8th RV in four years. List of equipment...

I'm not making a "good or bad" judgment on this, or on how people are flying their planes, but if what we're worried about is FAA taking note of things that are arguably against the spirit of the regs, I think there are more common risks to the experimental classification as a whole than the actions of one pilot.
 
Yep, the regs clearly state that the experimental certificate is granted for the purpose of "recreation and education". Got to wonder what the future will bring if guys keep turning out factory-built RV's under the guise of amateur built.
 
Yukon said:
Yep, the regs clearly state that the experimental certificate is granted for the purpose of "recreation and education". Got to wonder what the future will bring if guys keep turning out factory-built RV's under the guise of amateur built.

Easy fix, just keep it up... First one that sues and wins due to the manufacturer being listed as the "mini factory" will stop this kind of practice... it's only moments away from happening at at time too :)

ps. yes I agree, while well intentioned, its going to severely mess up experimentals definition if not careful.
 
Nice video!

Pat,
Nice video. Very enjoyable. :)
Welcome to the culture of "No"
Of course, most of the criticism is intended to dissuade the less-capable pilots from attempting the same maneuvers. I would also echo this sentiment. No pilot should attempt any advanced maneuvers until after having mastered techniques such as taxiing and landing on the main gear. These two techniques continue to be major stumbling blocks for many.
Happy flying,
Mark
p.s. Those wide angle lenses can sure mislead the viewer's eye
 
Seeing the same thing, Bob.

Liberty,

I'd sure like to view the video. Can you send me some way to view it? I promise that I am not going to offer any criticism, I'd just like to check it out! I love RV videos.

Thanks-
 
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