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Flap Motor Problem

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
With 437 hours accumulated in in just 18 months on the Val, I sometimes feel like I am doing accelerated life testing for the fleet ! Ah well, most of it has been trouble free, but this afternoon I stopped for fuel at a remote municipal field with cheap gas, and when I went to fire back up - the flaps decided they wanted to stay down. I could hear the relay clicking, so I knew the trouble wasn't there, cycled the breaker anyway, and toggled the switch a number of times. Dang - I sure didn't want to fly home at less than 100 knots....

Suspecting a dead spot on the motor, or a brush problem, I put the switch in the "up" position, unstrapped, and got out to wiggle the flaps. After a couple of wiggles and some pressure on the trailing edge, I heard the motor start, and got the flaps to go fully up. That was good enough for me! A now-flap anding at home base was just fine.

With some travel coming up next week, I decided to dive right into the flap motor this evening, and when I go the the passenger sidewall off to expose the mechanism, I realized that I could pull the brush end off the motor without removing the whole actuator. While tiny, it wasn't that hard to clean up the brushes using a small file, and my tiny forceps and some thin safety wire (to hold the brush springs back) made reassembly only a two-swear-word operation (on a scale of one to five). Operation restored!

But now comes the question....has anyone else been through this dance with brushes, and if so, how long can I expect to get out of the motor before further work is required? I figure I'll order a new actuator anyway, to have on hand...but I'm curious what other's experiences have been...

Paul
 
percussive therapy

Paul,
Same problem with my flaps around 500 or so hours. Perhaps it was Pierre Smith who recommended rapping the flap motor with the handle of a screwdriver(if not, my apologies)... has worked well for me.
Mark
 
Flap Motor

I had similar problems after a couple hundred hours. Cleaning brushes helped, but problem soon returned. At least three of the guys I fly with have had the same problem. At one time Van's had a problem with motors, but not sure if it was the old series, or the replacement series. At one time I tried to run down a sourse for the motor. They are relatively cheap, only problem is they had to be bought in quantity and IDing the correct gear to be installed. I belive that Vans still only sell the complete assembly. It is definetly a weak link. Good Luck with cleaning the brushes.
Bill, RV-8, 575 Hours
 
55 hrs

And my flap motor bought the farm. Upon disassembly, it became apparent I was a victim of the "grease" problem...the dust from the brushes had married with the grease to contaminate the motor. Mine had progressed to a point where the commutator (not sure if that's the right terminology) was worn uneven where it contacts the brushes. I bought a new mechanism from Van's (over $300) and replaced the whole thing. I intend to buy a new motor to install on the original gearbox to have a spare assembly available. I figure that (like an umbrella) if I have it around, I won't ever need it. Following that line of thinking, I also installed a plug in the power wires coming off the flap motor...
There's a thread somewhere here about where to source the motor (seems like about $100), which attaches to the gearbox with two capscrews.
 
No more electic flaps for me

Had the same problem in my RV-4. After doing that dance 3 times I went with manual flaps. You might search here or the RV-List. Someone once posted an alternate source for the motors and had good luck with them. I don't recall him saying he had to buy in quantity either but I could be wrong.
 
Paul, The brush holders seem to be a little tight and won't allow the brushes to extend when they wear a little. So if you tap the case, it just might get you going in a pinch.

I sure am glad that I have manual flaps in my 6A. They have never been a problem, and are actually fun to use. But I guess in a "8" you don't have room for manual...

I also like my manual trim, and have never had a problem with it eather. It is nice to be simple......... Remember, Van was a farm boy
 
I had the same problem with the flap motor in my F-1.

First time (30 hours), we disassembled the motor, cleaned it up, reinstalled, and it worked fine for 50 hours. The second time, I found an old posting on the Matronics list suggesting putting a drop of 3-in-1 oil into the motor, via the shaft. I tried this, and on test, the motor ran great, continued for 130 hours up to the point that I sold the plane. Simple solution that worked for me.
 
Thanks for the experiences gentlemen. I'm going to do a little searching for the motor source - I seem to remember reading about that as well, just can't remember which board, forum, or group...;)

It was fun to fly with manual flaps and a Johnson Bar in Doug's airplane the other week - simple, quick, reliable....too bad that's not an option on an -8!

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
I seem to remember reading about that as well, just can't remember which board, forum, or group...;)Paul

I also have read at least 2 different threads about this.

And, since this is the only forum I read, it has to have been here, or at least a link that was posted here.

You might also find it in the weekly newsletter that Bob Collins puts out--------pretty sure I have seen it there also.

Mike
 
the motor link

Ed O Quinn wrote:


"Update on my flap motor:
After talking to Gus at Van's, he gave me the name and phone number for the supplier of the flap assembly for the RV7, I think the RV6, RV7, RV8 and RV9 are all the same unit.
Usher Precision Manufactoring
www.usherprecision.com
Dean Trump
503-992-0015

I bought a new motor from them, that has the worm gear attached.
Price $110 plus shipping."
 
Ironflight said:
Thanks for the experiences gentlemen. I'm going to do a little searching for the motor source - I seem to remember reading about that as well, just can't remember which board, forum, or group...;)

Paul
Paul:

Look for my comments in a thread on Flap problems under the Routine Maintenance section. If you didn't take the entire motor out and clean all the grease out of the bottom of the motor housing then it's going to fail again and probably within 30-50 hours.

My motor stopped on three occasions even with cleaning so I finally gave up and bought a new motor with worm gear attached. The supplier is mentioned in the thread as well as the price. This is Van's current supplier and while the motor is not the orginal it is virtually a duplicate. Replacement takes a couple of minutes.

If I can find the thread later I'll update you.

Just saw the post above mine. Yup, Usher Precision is the place. Ask for Dean Trump.

Chris
 
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When my flap motor quit I repaired it but then I ordered a new one. Van's has changed suppliers and a whole new flap drive has to be ordered as a fix for older units. I found the original supplier and got one from them with the proper gear. It's made by a company for wheel chairs. I forget the cost ( maybe $80-$100) but it was substantially cheaper than Van's($400) solution. I'll look for the actuals. That was two years ago or so.
 
My question is how is it to land a 7 without flaps. I never use flaps in my kitfox, it has flaps, but I don't use them. I have a constant speed prop, so I feel that will help slow me down, that along with a slip... I have two runways at my airport 4000 and 6000ft. I feel this is plenty for landing without flaps.
 
I can see it now, I have a hole in the side of the center section with a little device like a punch hanging on the side, clipped to the side. I have a passenger and they see it and ask, what is that for? Oh! that's for smacking the flap motor to make it work? Yup, that will go over real good.
 
Me too - the newer kind

My flap motor (I think it's the motor) became intermittent at about 120 hours and got less dependable around 140-150 hours. Mine is the newer model with "Van's" inscribed on the gear box. Grease did drip down the shaft, but when I pulled the top off the motor I could not detect any grease in it. There was a heck of a lot of carbon from the brushes so I cleaned that with just a paper towel. I don't know yet if that will work or for how long.

I did notice that there is a detent in the brush assembly that will hold the brushes while you place the assembly over the copper thing (commutator?). Then you can poke the brushes with the end of a piece of safety wire to release the detent and allow them to spring toward the central dingus.
 
with only 60 hours on my -7 the flaps worked most of the time I took it apart and cleand the greas out of it and then had no problems untill 132 hours then it quit

landing with no flaps was a non issue the runway was long so i just cam in a little faster then norm

I took the motor apart and found that the brushes had melted in the plastic holder i bought a new motor from vans working fine now

ken in maine
 
Premature Disassemble!

I just dismantled my new never used but several year old flap motor to check for grease contamination. Not surprisingly there was none but I did remove excess grease from the gearbox. In retrospect I didn't need to dismantle the motor. Since it was new I just needed to pull it from the gear box to remove the excess grease. Now here is the sad part - I broke a motor brush trying to reassemble the darn thing:mad:
Looks like I'm buying a new motor from Precision. Be careful out there.
Jim Sharkey
 
Thanks for the experiences gentlemen. I'm going to do a little searching for the motor source - I seem to remember reading about that as well, just can't remember which board, forum, or group...;)

It was fun to fly with manual flaps and a Johnson Bar in Doug's airplane the other week - simple, quick, reliable....too bad that's not an option on an -8!

Paul

Paul,

Next time my motor quits I am going to look into buying an actuator from this company -

http://www.dcactuators.com/?gclid=COShp-iOrZUCFQyenAodyVzJjg
 
I just dismantled my new never used but several year old flap motor to check for grease contamination. Not surprisingly there was none but I did remove excess grease from the gearbox. In retrospect I didn't need to dismantle the motor. Since it was new I just needed to pull it from the gear box to remove the excess grease. Now here is the sad part - I broke a motor brush trying to reassemble the darn thing:mad:
Looks like I'm buying a new motor from Precision. Be careful out there.
Jim Sharkey

I managed to buy a motor brush set with mount yoke from Motion Systems in NJ, the makers of the original actuators. $16 and they were very helpful.
Jim Sharkey
 
Great Service

Just to follow up - I received the new motor brush assembly from Motion Systems today a mere 24 hours after talking to them.

For $16 you can clean and refurbish one of the older actuators with a new brush assembly (p/n 79633-004) - and I'm sure that their service for complete motor replacements is just as good.

They are in New Jersey at
www.motionsystem.com
(732)222-1800

Jim Sharkey
RV6 - Heading to the airport for wing assembly!

From Rosie: I just bought a new set of brushes on 12 Oct 2011, no change in price, part & contact info all good ;-)
 
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Converting to Manual Flaps on RV7

I am having the same problem described avove with my flap motor. Has anyone out there tried to convert their RV7/8/9 to manual flaps? If so, I would be interested in how it went and how you did it (ie. from scratch, used an old RV6 manual flap actuator, etc.)
 
Flap Motor issues

Paul, there seems to be several approaches to a solution.

I ordered a brush set from http://www.clickautomation.com/
and replaced the original brushes with the new one. I had cleaned the original ones a couple of times. I actually ordered two brush plates and carry a spare. My story is that carrying the spare made "Murphy" go ride with someone else, as I have not had a failure since. The part number that I used on Click Automations web site for the new style brush plate that fits the Pittman 9400 series motor is 862754 The brush plate looks a little different as it didn't have specific springs behind the brushes but the brushes were actually bonded to some leaf style springs but it works great. I think the cost was $14 for the brush but the shipping was as much as the part - not uncommon these days.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned in past posts.

John Myers RV8 N851JM
 
Do "new motors" use/need the brush replacement?

Just wondering if folks have been working the brush replacement on the new motors,(block with Vans on side) and if so, what part numbers from what vendor?

Flaps have been intermittent, and wiring and switch check out.... and no circuit breaker popping. Yesterday they would not come up,. but after running them down a bit, they came all the way up. Have been chasing this for several flights and several cycles of work/don't work.
 
FWIW .... In Jan 2010 it was said Vans had changed the vendor from Usher Enterprises (503)992-0015 to "Pittman". I don't have an address or phone for Pittman.
 
Flap motor

Does anyone have a part# on the motor from Ametek , Called and they need part# .
Thanks,
B. Copeland
Rv-8
L-19
 
Flap motor woes

My 7A has about 520 hrs on it and the flaps work then they don't, touch down and maybe they work again! After reading all the great posts on the subject I took the motor apart and found a little grease and carbon dust in the commutator- obvious problem! I took it all apart and cleaned with contact cleaner, then I used an exacto knife to clean the groove between each copper commutator segment. I made a little horseshoe to get the brush assy. back on out of some sheet metal. All put back together and seems flawless! I highly recommend this procedure if your having intermittent woes, and your switch and wiring checks out! My hats off to this website, Vans, and all the users that contribute the info! Thanks All!
 
flap motor

I must have a strange one...800 Hrs and still going strong.....probably will crater on the next flight:(


Ed Booth, RV-6, 7, 9A, 10
 
Since someone revivid this very old thread....

Last month out in Big Bear (cold!), we had a re-occurance of this at 1430 hours on the airframe. This time, I just took the cockpit cover panel off and rapped on the motor with the handle of a screwdriver....and it's been working fine again ever since....
 
If anyone wants replacement parts for an old style flap motor, I have a complete unused 93 one that will appear in the Classified section in the next day.

Unused, zero time but unairworthy as an entire unit due to incorrect factory cross-drilling at the mounting area.

Motor is marked Pittman 9234C120 73633

Except for the mounting boss, all parts should be good replacement parts...:)
 
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Flap motor is talking to me

I recently had my 3rd flap failure. Each time they fail after stopping at 1/2 and then going to full position. In the air, they are failed completely. Once on the ground, they work fine.
On this last incident I recalled that each time each time in the past I would start to hear noise in my headset when the flaps were activated. Once the motor was cleaned the noise went away.
This may be unique to my wiring but in my case I hope to have fair warning before the next failure.
 
gear removal

anyone know how to remove worm gear from old motor and install on new one?
Have new flap motor but can't get old worm gear off. Date on failed m motor 2000
Thanks
Tim
N932WF
RV9A Phase 1
 
Price Update

I called Usher Precision today and talked to Brad. A replacement motor for my 9A is being shipped and cost $75 (plus shipping). They were easy to deal with, too. I almost bought a second one to have a spare but I'm hopeful I will get the old motor working again - no joy so far.
 
For anyone else with this problem, I just talked to Dean Trump at Usher Precision Manufacturing. He said that their current motor should be a bolt-on replacement for the older Motion System units. Originally the Precision units had the same problem with grease, but they have since redesigned the motor with a sealed bearing that is intended to keep the grease out. Price of the motor with the worm gear installed is $125, quite a bargain compared to the price of new motor+actuator from Vans. Great customer service, and he mentioned that they've sold quite a few replacement motors.
 
Update for 2021

Updating this post 09/15/2021:
Usher no longer will sell this motor to end users in quantity one. Vans Aircraft carries the complete flap actuator assembly (ES 85615-157-1) but not the motor (with the small gear) I need. I've reached out to Greg Hughes at Vans for help and will update this thread when I learn something.

Update 09/22/2021:
Greg Hughes had been on vacation and hasn't returned my email or phone call yet but I remain hopeful. Called Builder Support this morning and Gary said Van's didn't carry just the motor but did not know why (it was "above his pay grade"). I'm still hoping Greg Hughes will be able to make something happen.
 
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Don't understand why Greg says he doesn't carry the motor. They want us to buy the whole set-up?

I've actually been pretty happy with my Motion motor. It's failed me twice, it has 705 hours on it, bought the plane when it had 440 hours. Grease wasn't the problem this time, but I'll clean it up while I have it off, but this time, I've misplaced the two little springs behind the brushes. Might have to fabricate something to work, perhaps a leaf spring, or find a small spring supplier come up with something that works.

Called Motion, and they told me they no longer support it, and that I'd need to try Van's or Aircraft Spruce.

Called Usher as well, and as Joe says, they quit supplying individuals in June of 2020.

Looks like my problem this time is just going to be the switch.

If anyone has an old Motion motor and/or actuator they are no longer happy with, I'd be interesting in buying it working or non-working, or something compatible.
 
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I have the PHAviation flap motor. It has been great. Consider changing to it. It is not drop in but easily installed.
 
Greg Hughes responded by email on 09/24/2021 and said this:

I’ve done some checking on this. We have the ES 85615-157-1 flap actuator assemblies available here to purchase. We don’t sell the motor itself as a stand-alone unit, and as far as I know it’s not available from our suppliers as motor-only. I can’t force anyone to sell that way and I believe their orders are made specially for complete assemblies. I also checked our spare parts and we do not have one of those motors.

The flap actuator from PH Aviation seems like a good solution although some modification would be required for my already painted and upholstered RV-8A so I'm not going that route. That's my loss as Pat Hatch is a good guy and a pleasure to deal with.

Allied Electronics and other distributors sell the Ametek/Pittman 9234S004-R1 motor (backordered) but how to transfer the worm gear from the old motor to the new eludes me.

IMO the most viable solution is for Van's use their influence with Usher to either make the motor/gear combo available or to stock it themselves as a replacement part.
 
I'm really pleased to see this solution from PH Aviation. It looks like the extent of modification required for an RV-8 is simply moving the upper attachment bracket. It would also allow me to remove my separate position feedback pot.

My original Vans actuator has been *almost* flawless in doing its job over 700 hrs and 12 years. But nice to know there is a good alternative.






(I said 'almost' because the flaps did fail to extend once, landing at Wells, NV in 100F temps, density altitude of something like 10,000 ft, when I really would have liked to have some flaps, but oh well all turned out fine)
 
I found the ES 85615-157-1 flap motor assembly on "the list" for $460. Now I understand why folks are trying to buy just the motor. Price seems shocking for what it is. Although I serviced mine quite a while ago, I'm going to speak nicely to it and practice more no-flap landings.
 
Your mileage may vary

I had my RV-6A in the avionics shop getting the panel redone and my flap motor decided to quit. I brought them a new one I had in my hangar. Took the old one to my shop, disassembled, cleaned the grease out, reassembled and it works like a charm.
Now there have been comment before here about the service needs of these little motor units.
I have about 550 hours on this motor unit.
From now on I'm gonna be more proactive and remove it for a good cleaning every say 350 hours. Easier to clean it than go a long ways away to fix it.
It is a ROYAL pain to have it quit.
Oh ya It gave me a warning shot, Cause 6 months ago it decided to be intermittent on one flight. Worked fine after that.
My three cents worth Art
 
... disassembled, cleaned the grease out, reassembled and it works like a charm. ... I'm gonna be more proactive and remove it for a good cleaning every say 350 hours.

Everyone should know there are two different manufacturers' flap motors: Motion Systems and Ametek/Pittman. AFAIK only the Motion Systems motor had the "grease issue" and around 2010 I believe Usher changed to the Pittman motor.

So the grease cleaning procedure should not be necessary for later motors but YMMV. The Pittman motor should last indefinitely (and with no servicing) but it is possible to burn one out as I have proven. (In my case I only need new brushes and their holder but apparently they're made of Unobtanium.)

I think there's a business opportunity here for Van's: stock a replacement motor for those thousands of flying RVs out there. It would not be inexpensive ($150 - $200) but certainly more cost effective than buying a whole new $460 actuator. Wish I could get the ear of someone at Van's who would make it happen -- I'd be the first customer.

BTW, the above applies to the RV6/7/8/9 and probably not the other models.
 
Greg Hughes responded by email on 09/24/2021 and said this:

The flap actuator from PH Aviation seems like a good solution although some modification would be required for my already painted and upholstered RV-8A so I'm not going that route. That's my loss as Pat Hatch is a good guy and a pleasure to deal with.

Had additional problems with my motion actuator, after getting springs in, chipped the brush by using tweezers. It must have been brittle, wasn’t using hardly any pressure, maybe I gripped it wrong.

I ran out of options on trying to repair my old actuator this time, so I got off the phone with Pat, going to order the actuator from him at PH Aviation. He was good to talk to, steered me in another direction. I have an RV-6, but just a heads up to everybody, he recommended ordering the other model he has for the RV 10 and 14. It’s another $50, but biggest reason to go with that model, is because he’s going to phase the other one out. Hopefully, he’ll support this model for some time, but no guarantee with small manufacturers, esp dealing with aviation.
 
Fixed the motor

Since a new motor was not available from Van's without buying the whole actuator, the only reasonable alternative IMO called for repairing the existing motor. I bought a brand new motor with a similar (but different) part number for not much money on eBay and used its brushes and brush holder in my original motor.

Incidentally, these brushes are used on many different motors and are available on the web (Eurton Electric part no. BMP80664). But AFAIK the plastic brush holder used in the Pittman 9234 motor is not.

While I was at it, I burnished the flap motor's commutator ring and between that and the new brushes, my motor should be good to TBO.

Ops checked with about 10 traffic patterns and some miscellaneous flap movements yesterday: flawless.

Update 04 Mar 2023: still flawless a year and a half later.
 
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Flap Controller?

I'm also having my flaps intermittently fail in the down position. After cleaning and testing I do not believe the problem lies with the motor.

It does it using either stick flap switch so probably not a switch problem.

The wiring and grounds are all good.

I have an old Advanced Control Systems flap controller. Does anyone know the failure modes associated with these? The company does not seem to be in business any longer and I'm trying to figure out how to troubleshoot.
 
Try taking a positive and negative lead from an independent battery and connecting directly to the flap motor which should be disconnected from the aircraft wiring and see if the motor will operate in both directions. If it does your problem is elsewhere if not it is the flap motor. Go directly to the flap motor.
 
Thanks. Since the problem is intermittent it's hard to tell. Maybe a brush is sticking so it works now but not after 10 cycles? Maybe the relay deck is failing? I'm no expert but this is hard to trace since i don't have a hard failure. When they stick down a few bumps of the switch normally gets them going.
 
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