Good question, are they the same or different o rings?
Van's Air Force
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Reusable oil filter
- Thread starter WingnutWick
- Start date
If the oring and related gland are properly dimensioned, there is a lot of room for torque variance. If the OEM states hand tight + 1/4 turn is acceptable, I wouldn't think twice about it. Whatever the OEM's instructions, follow it. That said, it sounds as though there may be material quality in addition to installation variables in play. This will reveal itself.
That's not what "absolute" means in filter ratings. That term and likewise "relative" haven't really been used for a few decades in the industry. Does your offering state a beta ratio?Just wanted to let folks know, I am selling a similar lifetime oil filter which has been working well in various RVs. The one I sell has a 30 micron absolute filtration. "Absolute" meaning the stainless filter membrane doesn't degrade/compress after hours of use like the paper filters do. Doug Beatty has a great facebook write up on the one he purchased from me. I would add the link but I struggle to find it as I'm not facebook savy. But I can add a link to the filter below. Price already includes shipping and if you need a nipple for application, I have been advising my customers to just pull the one off your old filter.
Lifetime Oil Filter
Why pay double? Fits Lycoming engines Direct replacement for Champion & Tempest filters Precision CNC-machined billet aluminum body Knurled non-slip grip surface 30-micron absolute filtration Cleanable/reusable surgical-grade stainless steel woven filter element Disassembles without tools for...cranford-aviation-supply.myshopify.com
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or send me an e-mail via the website.
All the Best,
Dan
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
Is your filter one of the filters being tested at the lab? Confirmation of your specs would greatly help your sales. If not, why didn't you send it?Just wanted to let folks know, I am selling a similar lifetime oil filter which has been working well in various RVs. The one I sell has a 30 micron absolute filtration. "Absolute" meaning the stainless filter membrane doesn't degrade/compress after hours of use like the paper filters do. Doug Beatty has a great facebook write up on the one he purchased from me. I would add the link but I struggle to find it as I'm not facebook savy. But I can add a link to the filter below. Price already includes shipping and if you need a nipple for application, I have been advising my customers to just pull the one off your old filter.
Lifetime Oil Filter
Why pay double? Fits Lycoming engines Direct replacement for Champion & Tempest filters Precision CNC-machined billet aluminum body Knurled non-slip grip surface 30-micron absolute filtration Cleanable/reusable surgical-grade stainless steel woven filter element Disassembles without tools for...cranford-aviation-supply.myshopify.com
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or send me an e-mail via the website.
All the Best,
Dan
One can also use the NAPA Gold 1068 filter, by switching threads. Been using them for years in my RV6A 0-360. Cheap by the case on sale !
Hangar 1271
Well Known Member
I have a PC Racing PCS4 on a Rotax and my Io-360. My next door neighbor also uses the PC Racing PCS4. It is $128 on Amazon.
It's not one of our choices, all of which are currently at the lab. In fairness, it's not really a dealer's function to run an ISO 4548-12 test requiring a lot of money and hours on the installation below. More of a manufacturer's responsibility...or the result of serious curiosity by a bunch of airplane guys
We did include both the S-15 and a Challenger. They're going to be indicative of screen filters in general.
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JonJay
Well Known Member
Easy to drill a small hole in one of the cooling fins. Theres lots of meat there.
Mine isn't at a lab. If I knew this was happening, I would have gladly sent it in. How do I get in on this?
D
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
Reusable oil filter
It wasn't a matter of "years", but rather 7-8 months... what I've been wondering, is there a difference in size between the Challenger's and the S15's o-rings? Good question, are they the same or different o rings?
vansairforce.net
Dan 57
Well Known Member
Cleaned and replaced my filter today as part of a 400h inspection (exhaust valve guides wobble check), and couldn't help but think about that severe incident as reported in post #188 by glider_rider
Difficult to fathom such a large leak in the small space between the filter bowl and the case, as they physically are in contact, metal to metal, when the seal gets compressed. Nevertheless, inspected, oiled and reused my old seal, thorough run-up and leak check to follow.
Difficult to fathom such a large leak in the small space between the filter bowl and the case, as they physically are in contact, metal to metal, when the seal gets compressed. Nevertheless, inspected, oiled and reused my old seal, thorough run-up and leak check to follow.
glider_rider
Active Member
Wow, certainly a good tear. And to happen after 20 hrs since the oil change is strange and 200 hrs on the o ring so it wasn't installed this last time dry. A good lesson here for all of us to make sure we pay extra attention to this when changing our oil. For that matter any filter. Any more of these happening and I think there will be a bunch of these filters sitting on the shelf. Myself I do a lot of flying over the mountains here in western canada and I'm going to be thinking seriously if this is the route I want to go.
Tim
glider_rider
Active Member
just a clarification from my side: it's been 70h on the ring and 20h since the oil change
It's a genuine ring
I'm back on Tempest
Jetmart
Well Known Member
There has been many reported issues with Tempest O-rings leaking after several hours of flying. Specifically on their pre-lubed seal. It’s been reported here on VAF and in depth reports on BeechTalk site. Apparently it appears the ring shrinks after several hours of use.
I have several Tempest on the shelf that I purchased during Champions shortage that I have not used out of concern.
An amazing failure for a properly lubricated and installed "O" ring.
RV8JD
Well Known Member
Being in the PNW we also do a lot of flying over the mountains. A friend who has been using a Challenger filter on the engine of his RV-8 just finished an oil change last week. When he removed the Challenger filter this last time he noticed some damage to the seal (but no oil leakage), so he installed a new seal upon reinstallation. But before he had a chance to fly after the oil change, and upon seeing the experience of 'glider_rider' and the Mooney incident, he decided to remove the Challenger filter and put a Champion back on until he thinks about the whole situation a bit more.
It's the risk matrix thing: the probability of having a massive oil leak may be low, but the consequences can be catastrophic if it occurs.
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Yup, no question about that. It would be interesting to see what seal damage he had and after how many changes. Not sure what elastomer they are using, but might be something that we use once and then file it.
ArlingtonRV
Well Known Member
I reused it once, so it was after its second installation. It had been used about 70 hours.
Attachments
I don't want to jinx myself here, but I haven't had any issue with the "X" o-ring or the S15+housing in the 100+ hours now on my IO-360-A1B6. That said, I replace the o-ring at every oil change; they're cheap, why not. And I torque the housing to 16ft/lbs just like the CH48110-1 that it replaced. "Hand tight" (as described by glider_rider) just doesn't seem like a good value. I've never measured the amount of torque that my popeye forearms can generate, but It's certainly NOT close to the 16ft/lbs that CH specs.
The "X" profile can/will deform more than the Champion/Tempest glued in/square seal -- so maybe 16ft/lbs is too much, too little...don't know for certain. YMMV.
The "X" profile can/will deform more than the Champion/Tempest glued in/square seal -- so maybe 16ft/lbs is too much, too little...don't know for certain. YMMV.
Visually from my end looks like the damage happened during make up, break out or both. Was it lubed with anything before installation? I'm assuming no galling present on the face of the oil filter housing?
I have my annual coming up and will decide then if I install my new S15. For sure I would be double checking the fit, finish, torque and using clean oil lube and properly torqued. I don't think for the time being to reuse these seals is even an option.
Tim
Those pics look like the filter was over tightened to the point that the rubber squeezed out between the filter housing and the engine machined flat surface, then got tore up over tightening, loosening, or both. Just for grins, I'll remove mine next time I am at the hanger and have a look at mine.
Cth6
Well Known Member
My experience is similar to Steve’s after the second use. Pictures look identical. Which is why I use it once, flip it, use it a second time then toss.
I wet the recess with oil, then wet the entire X ring with oil using my fingers before inserting into the recess. I finally wet the mating surface with a light coat of oil. I tighten by hand then use a torque wrench to 18 ft lb.
Edit - Up until this oil change I only used K&P provided X Rings. This last change, I installed my first one sourced from OringsandMore. Will see if there is any difference.
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ArlingtonRV
Well Known Member
Yes, it was lubricated with clean oil before installation and tightened per the Challenger instructions, which are a bit vague "install by hand until it begins to get tight, then 1/4 turn". Was it over tightened? It's possible, but I don't think so.
FYI during an oil change last fall I noticed my K&P housing o-ring coming apart just like Steve's...decided to go back to Wix until I could get a replacement
Roadjunkie1
Well Known Member
There are likely thousands of these units of various types in service, both on aircraft and other engines. There have been few reports of failure on this forum until now. It would be good to know several things: 1) which brand of filter; 2) "O" ring from the dealer or aftermarket; 3) how many hours on the rings that failed; 4) was this a reused ring or new; 5) did it fit properly when installed or did it take some 'manipulation' to make it fit in the slot; 6) torque of the unit; 7) some other things I can't think of right now.....
It would also be informative to hear from the Challenger folks if they are aware of a pattern or cause of ring failure.
Curious minds want to know. I also want to go out and just take mine off and look at it..............
It would also be informative to hear from the Challenger folks if they are aware of a pattern or cause of ring failure.
Curious minds want to know. I also want to go out and just take mine off and look at it..............
A 1/4 turn from my girl friend to a 1/4 turn with a guy with 18 inch arms could be easily be another 1/2 turn. Yes I know that's what they say but there can be a huge difference on torque specs based on this alone.
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
I wonder if a traditional circular cross section "O" ring would be a viable option? Viton is rated to somewhere in the 400f range.
Roadjunkie1
Well Known Member
Mine has an adaptor that allows me to use this amazing device...................what's it called?....................Oh, yeah: Torque wrench! That way my girlfriend doesn't have to get her hands dirty....
glider_rider
Active Member
I was reading here and there about the oil pressure in car engines. Looks like 65-75 PSI is the red line in most automotive applications, much less than in Lycoming. Would that difference be a factor? I mean would that explain why our O rings failed?
Dan 57
Well Known Member
I think the amount of the applied torque toward a sealing effect is negligible, as the seal itself is only slightly thicker than the groove it rests in.
Tightening the S15 by hand, and I'm no spinach stuffed Popeye, I can feel the filter housing butt against the engine receptacle flange, metal against metal, QED the seal squashes easily.
Tightening the S15 by hand, and I'm no spinach stuffed Popeye, I can feel the filter housing butt against the engine receptacle flange, metal against metal, QED the seal squashes easily.
O-Rings are used all the time in high pressure hydraulics. The brake system of our aircraft is one example.
glider_rider
Active Member
Let me be somewhat more specific: is the S15 O-ring sized / shaped properly for 115 PSI?
I'll repeat that there's most likely a quality issue here; material, manufacturing, installation, whatever. A static o-ring or any static seal application for that matter, just isn't that hard. Parker Hannifin and others have already done the work (example attached). Likewise, the service conditions are nothing from a design standpoint.
The fact that it didn't leak/fail immediately is both very telling and worrisome IMO. This just doesn't happen without the at least one of the aforementioned quality issues.
The fact that it didn't leak/fail immediately is both very telling and worrisome IMO. This just doesn't happen without the at least one of the aforementioned quality issues.
Richard Connell
Well Known Member
What I’m confused about is the torque. Finger tight plus 1/4 turn seems nothing like 15ft.lbs in my experience with the
the S15. I’m surprised that 2 versions of an otherwise identical filter specify 2 different methods of installation. Is that really the case?
the S15. I’m surprised that 2 versions of an otherwise identical filter specify 2 different methods of installation. Is that really the case?
Dan 57
Well Known Member
Yes, why not? Not sure about yours, but my experience thru close to 900 hours use = 18 times of filter removal, checking, cleaning, examining seal, reinstalling, and there always is filter base to mating surface contact, of course, your own experience may differ.
Despite multiple seal use never had any leak... I must have been soooo lucky
I agree, Ive changed a lot of filters in my day and Ive never had any filter to base contact, ever. Now maybe this design is different but ...... It would probably be in the directions to torque until you have bottomed out, and stop. Lol and I haven't seen that stated anywhere.
Im thinking that they have a QC/QA problem.
Everyone that has had a problem should probably let them know so they can correct it. It's only going to be a matter of time before someone is seriously hurt, or worse.
The really scary thing is that this has happened hours after the oil and filter change that the seal lets go.
Tim
Everyone that has had a problem should probably let them know so they can correct it. It's only going to be a matter of time before someone is seriously hurt, or worse.
The really scary thing is that this has happened hours after the oil and filter change that the seal lets go.
Tim
A 1/4 turn is a quarter turn, regardless of who is doing the turning.
Hand tight and then an additional quarter turn is a whole different story.
That is why at Van's I argued that the terms finger tight and hand tight never be used in the construction manuals.
I agree that a 1/4 turn is a 1/4 turn. It's the starting point that will vary.
To be consistent, spin on the filter just till the O ring makes contact. Mark the top of the filter then torque to 15 ft.# and see where the mark ends up....... New O rings. They're cheap.
From K&P https://kandpengineering.com/product/s15/ Torque filter to either factory specs or 18-20 lb ft, whichever is less.
Lycoming appears identical https://www.lycoming.com/content/ti... a torque wrench,50 hours of engine operation.
Lycoming appears identical https://www.lycoming.com/content/ti... a torque wrench,50 hours of engine operation.
Play the video..... https://kandpengineering.com/cleaning/ It says 15ft lbs.
So is it 15ft lbs, or 20ft lbs? Quite a gap for an O ring.
So is it 15ft lbs, or 20ft lbs? Quite a gap for an O ring.
Ya, like 25 or 30% difference.
Maybe room if you used one of these.Unfortunately on the -6 there's no room for a torque wrench between the filter and the firewall... Time for a 90 degree adapter perhaps...
:O I didn't even know that existed. That's an awesome idea.
