Waterobert
Active Member
I am doing Form 8500-8 for my medical exam and just want to make sure that since I am not a pilot yet I need airman and student pilot certification. Right?
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Med exam
- Thread starter Waterobert
- Start date
DO NOT SUBMIT YOUR FORMS TO FAA
Im not sure of your question, but I did want to to consider waiting to submit your forms UNTIL you go see the doctor for your medical. Let him look at them to make sure things are correct and there are not any problems you may not know about.
You may be in perfect health and this isnt an issue - but there is no benefit to submit them before your exam.
Im not sure of your question, but I did want to to consider waiting to submit your forms UNTIL you go see the doctor for your medical. Let him look at them to make sure things are correct and there are not any problems you may not know about.
You may be in perfect health and this isnt an issue - but there is no benefit to submit them before your exam.
roadrunner20
Well Known Member
I'm going to have to look at this again, as I did submit mine earlier this evening.
I thought the submit was so the AME can pull it. Then, the AME submits the final copy.
This is the first time I've done this since it has become required.
I thought the submit was so the AME can pull it. Then, the AME submits the final copy.
This is the first time I've done this since it has become required.
Dan,
My doctor said to let him look at them first. I have a couple things that most likely will not be an issue but if not presented with the proper documentation, have the possibility of further review. If there could be anything, let the doctor do a review first.
My doctor said to let him look at them first. I have a couple things that most likely will not be an issue but if not presented with the proper documentation, have the possibility of further review. If there could be anything, let the doctor do a review first.
Just did it
I just went through the process last Tues. My examiner's nurse said to fill out the 8500-8 online and come to the appointment with the confirmation number. I misread box 17b and checked yes when I should have checked no. The nurse said a lot of people make that mistake so read the question closely. It was no big deal for them to correct.
Question 18 about your medical history lists about 25 medical conditions. It's probably a good idea to talk with an expert if you think you may need to check any of them "yes". If you take any prescription drugs that may lead to more questions from the examiner. In the past I've had to produce a note from my regular doc as a result of a prescription drug I was on. Not suggesting you mislead anyone, just good to get advice. I owned up to having been motion sick before (fishing in The Gulf). Explained that I've never "lost my cookies" in a plane and the examiner was OK with it.
Be sure to take your near vision glasses if you need them for the eye test. My examiner asked me about sleep apnea also. (as in "Do you snore?") I don't think it's on the form, but he said the FAA is concerned about it since roughly 0% of pilots seem to be afflicted with the disorder. John
I just went through the process last Tues. My examiner's nurse said to fill out the 8500-8 online and come to the appointment with the confirmation number. I misread box 17b and checked yes when I should have checked no. The nurse said a lot of people make that mistake so read the question closely. It was no big deal for them to correct.
Question 18 about your medical history lists about 25 medical conditions. It's probably a good idea to talk with an expert if you think you may need to check any of them "yes". If you take any prescription drugs that may lead to more questions from the examiner. In the past I've had to produce a note from my regular doc as a result of a prescription drug I was on. Not suggesting you mislead anyone, just good to get advice. I owned up to having been motion sick before (fishing in The Gulf). Explained that I've never "lost my cookies" in a plane and the examiner was OK with it.
Be sure to take your near vision glasses if you need them for the eye test. My examiner asked me about sleep apnea also. (as in "Do you snore?") I don't think it's on the form, but he said the FAA is concerned about it since roughly 0% of pilots seem to be afflicted with the disorder. John
I've heard this enough now that I have to ask... What is the big hard on about sleep apnea and snoring and what are they trying to tie it to?
I've snored like a rhinoceros since I was 16yrs old. My late chocolate lab snored louder than me yet he could swim across Lake Havasu and back twice before I could even get the boat in the water.
What gives?
This is not how it works
The way it is supposed to work is that once you come in the door for an FAA medical the exam is started, it's too late to reconsider. You could of course schedule an exam with an MD to just chat, then schedule an appointment for your FAA exam. The FAA now requires that you fill in the form, on MedXpress.gov, BEFORE you appear at the MD's office. Bring the confirmation number with you to the exam. BTW, this web site only works with Internet Explorer, not Safari.
For a student you do not your medical until you are ready to solo, but it's a good idea to get it earlier, just in case there is a problem.
The way it is supposed to work is that once you come in the door for an FAA medical the exam is started, it's too late to reconsider. You could of course schedule an exam with an MD to just chat, then schedule an appointment for your FAA exam. The FAA now requires that you fill in the form, on MedXpress.gov, BEFORE you appear at the MD's office. Bring the confirmation number with you to the exam. BTW, this web site only works with Internet Explorer, not Safari.
For a student you do not your medical until you are ready to solo, but it's a good idea to get it earlier, just in case there is a problem.
You need to understand that giving 3rd class medicals is incredibly lucrative for MDs. Every year I get 4-5 postcards from AMEs soliciting my business. Now, all the evidence indicates that these exams are a complete waste of money, and there is some pressure to eliminate them. So the medical establishment keeps dreaming up new things to try to justify continuing the exams. Sleep apnea is just the latest. Some years ago they were trying to get colonoscopies mandatory.
Correct Bob. Because the results of a medical can be long lasting, it needs to be planned carefully. It is a test. If you don't prepare properly, you may never fly as PIC again.
gyoung
Well Known Member
I'm on a Special Issuance and went thru this on my last exam. The AME can use the confirmation number to open your form either for review or the exam. If he opens it in exam mode the clock starts and it has to be dispositioned, either issued, deferred or denied. But he can open it for review instead and then just shelve it or flush it if something turns up. You can either walk away and go LSA or fix things and create a new form for another go at it.
Well at least that's a little more fitting as we all know its a bunch of ****.
I know what you mean though, my mom, who was a nurse told me when I was a kid that eye doctors make more than brain surgeons. By pumping more patients through the gates. It baffled me when I was 10yrs old but made more sense later on.
n981ms
Well Known Member
I am a physician, not an AME. My partner who is an AME is in favor of rescinding the third class medical so I am not so sure about the profitability. He regularly considers stopping secondary to the hassles of AME certification. I am also for the elimination of the third class medical.
The issue of sleep apnea is that it can sometimes (not usually in my experience) cause uncontrollable daytime sleepiness. Snoring does not diagnose it but asking about it is a screening tool. Albeit a poor one in my opinion since many snore and do not have sleep apnea. I will try to keep this apolitical:
When you ask the populous "Do you want pilots falling asleep as they fly over your house?" They will answer no, do whatever it takes." I feel it is not much of an issue in that people who are actually having uncontrollable sleepiness will choose to not put themselves in harms way until they are treated adequately.
Incidentally I perform DOT truck driver exams. DOT tried to mandate all drivers of certain weight and or neck circumference have sleep apnea testing at $1000 each. The unions fought it and won.
The issue of sleep apnea is that it can sometimes (not usually in my experience) cause uncontrollable daytime sleepiness. Snoring does not diagnose it but asking about it is a screening tool. Albeit a poor one in my opinion since many snore and do not have sleep apnea. I will try to keep this apolitical:
When you ask the populous "Do you want pilots falling asleep as they fly over your house?" They will answer no, do whatever it takes." I feel it is not much of an issue in that people who are actually having uncontrollable sleepiness will choose to not put themselves in harms way until they are treated adequately.
Incidentally I perform DOT truck driver exams. DOT tried to mandate all drivers of certain weight and or neck circumference have sleep apnea testing at $1000 each. The unions fought it and won.
I am also a physician, and a new AME. I would not say, by a long stretch, that 3rd class medicals are "incredibly lucrative." We charge $70, so the reimbursement is much less than for any other office visit I do. It often takes more time as well (admittedly because I love to chat about flying) and the paperwork is a hassle. But I do it for the love of flying.
FWIW I am strongly in favor of driver's license medicals in lieu of 3rd class. And in regards to the sleep apnea issues, which I know get more than their fare share of flack from groups like the AOPA, I like to think that the issue is raised in good spirit - untreated sleep apnea is not just a sleep issue, but leads to higher blood pressures, higher risk of heart problems, and many other health issues that can ultimately cause the pilot to be disqualified from flying.
A good AME should be on your side, trying to keep you healthy for the long run and safe in the skies.
medxpress
As a senior AME I see some misinformation here. You must fill in 8500 either for medical or student pilot/medical on line. The BEST thing then to do is for YOU to print it out and bring it to your AME. (Don't just bring the number) Then, if he is a pilot friendly AME ( not all are!!) he will review the form with you BEFORE he goes online. If there is major problem there is no problem stopping the exam and not getting into the position of denial or deferral. ONCE the AME goes online with HIS login, the exam is official and there is no turning back. It always amazes me that people come for exams taking FAA forbidden meds, having disqualifying medical conditions etc. If you have doubts check with AOPA, Left Seat dot Com or with a good AME. And, regarding the exams being lucrative--most docs do the exams because they enjoy aviation and pilots, and don't do it for the $$. i also strongly support the Aviation Pilot bills in Congress doing away with the 3rd Class Medical.
As a senior AME I see some misinformation here. You must fill in 8500 either for medical or student pilot/medical on line. The BEST thing then to do is for YOU to print it out and bring it to your AME. (Don't just bring the number) Then, if he is a pilot friendly AME ( not all are!!) he will review the form with you BEFORE he goes online. If there is major problem there is no problem stopping the exam and not getting into the position of denial or deferral. ONCE the AME goes online with HIS login, the exam is official and there is no turning back. It always amazes me that people come for exams taking FAA forbidden meds, having disqualifying medical conditions etc. If you have doubts check with AOPA, Left Seat dot Com or with a good AME. And, regarding the exams being lucrative--most docs do the exams because they enjoy aviation and pilots, and don't do it for the $$. i also strongly support the Aviation Pilot bills in Congress doing away with the 3rd Class Medical.
As a retired physician, former USAF flight surgeon and AME, I no longer have a dog in this hunt; but I agree with the comments of the other physicians in this thread. Doing flight physicals is hardly lucrative; the fee is the same as, or less, than a physician could bill doing other things. By the time you factor in the paper work hassles and brain damage of trying to work with the FAA, it becomes a losing proposition. I always enjoyed working with other pilots, but gave up being an examiner because of the FAA(and the occasional pilot, who like Bob, felt we were just trying to scr*w them over).
While not totally useless, the 3rd class medical accomplishes very little, and should be eliminated
While not totally useless, the 3rd class medical accomplishes very little, and should be eliminated
I'm not a doctor, or a scientist for that matter. I do know that I'm stuck on a special that I shouldn't be with no path out. Mine costs me 2 days, 400 miles, and two grand out of pocket annually. For nothin'. Its not my AME's fault either, so I like what you guys are saying.
Waterobert
Active Member
$2k a year for a medical! That is a crime, sorry about that.
Larco
Well Known Member
FWIW. No offense meant, but I have filed my last two forms using safari and it worked fine. Larry
Maybe it depends on the phase of the moon. I just did mine, and forgot that it says "must use Internet Explorer". It seemed to work okay with Safari, except that the "save" button didn't appear! Maybe it would have saved automatically, I don't know.
Let me clarify. I don't think I'm being screwed by my AME. He's a nice guy, performing a required service. But if he's losing money after charging me $140 for less than 10 minutes of his time (another 5 minutes for his assistant) something is wrong. And why do I get 4 to 5 postcards every year from AMEs whom I've never met? Because they want me to come to them so they can lose money? Or they'd just like to talk to a pilot? That seems hard to believe.
My issue is with the consultants. Evey time the issue of third class medicals comes up, the FAA runs and hides by hiring consultants. And who do they hire? Why, people blessed by the AMA, of course. And these consultants have always advocated for more, never less, medical oversight. It's a classic example of the foxes guarding the hen house.
I think some people who are experiencing high costs related to medicals are forgetting to point out that most of these costs are "external" to the AME: what's expensive is testing and referrals to other specialists (like cardiologists). No one is getting rich doing physicals of any stripe. It's not fair to blame or attribute all the costs to the AME - as others have pointed out they are bound by a very specific and defined set of requirements.
As a former flight surgeon as well, I agree with my colleagues who support the DL medical for third class: there simply is no compelling evidence that the FAA process effectively weeds out patients at risk for in-flight incapacitation: the VAST majority of cases of in-flight incapacitation occur without previously identified risk factors or after screening that "cleared" the pilot. A better strategy to save lives in these cases is to get "pinch hitter" training for passengers.
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It may have come off as such, but I don't think anyone here is blaming the AME's themselves but the outside riff-raff that cause the AME's to have to jump through the hoops and pass that obstacle course down to the individual pilot.
I LOVE this idea. I am a low time pilot who is not even current right now. There is no way I would go get my biennial and then take any friends or family up unless they, at least, had solo'd an aircraft in there own training. And even that is stretching it. I'm happy to fly, on occasion with pilot friends, and don't even expect to log the hours in my log book. It's not even about a health issue but a currency one. Getting into a stressful situation would not be good with a panicked passenger to add to it.
When life gets out of the way and I know I can commit to flying at least 8hrs a month, then my limits will adjust accordingly.
Again, great idea! Perhaps you can author up the "Pinch hitter Program" that gives say 5-10hrs training to friends and family of active GA pilots at some kind of reduced rate. It may even convert non-aviation folks into our world.
I LOVE this idea. I am a low time pilot who is not even current right now. There is no way I would go get my biennial and then take any friends or family up unless they, at least, had solo'd an aircraft in there own training. And even that is stretching it. I'm happy to fly, on occasion with pilot friends, and don't even expect to log the hours in my log book. It's not even about a health issue but a currency one. Getting into a stressful situation would not be good with a panicked passenger to add to it.
When life gets out of the way and I know I can commit to flying at least 8hrs a month, then my limits will adjust accordingly.
Again, great idea! Perhaps you can author up the "Pinch hitter Program" that gives say 5-10hrs training to friends and family of active GA pilots at some kind of reduced rate. It may even convert non-aviation folks into our world.
MikeyDale
Well Known Member
AME's are getting hard to find in my part of the world. The gentleman I used a few months ago (a RV pilot) is a retired physician that I respect and probably does this just for his love of aviation. I made the mistake of listing Claritin D as an occasional medication I take and we had to look it up in his books and I got a pretty harsh lecture on using over the counter drugs that make you drowsy. I was also asked to lower trou and was given the cough test. But what shocked me is when I was asked to roll over so he could have a look at my rectum! Afterward, I asked what he was looking for? He took a defensive stance and showed me the requirement from the FAA in writing requiring it! Later, I asked my flight instructor who is old military about that and he said he went to the same guy and they all did that in the military.... I did feel like I got a very thorough examination which I really could use because I haven't had a decent checkup in a while. He told me he found a couple of cases of cancer in the recent years that might have saved those pilots lives...By the way, I am all for the DL deal!
Afterward, I asked what he was looking for? He took a defensive stance and showed me the requirement from the FAA in writing requiring it! Later, I asked my flight instructor who is old military about that and he said he went to the same guy and they all did that in the military.... I did feel like I got a very thorough examination which I really could use because I haven't had a decent checkup in a while. He told me he found a couple of cases of cancer in the recent years that might have saved those pilots lives...By the way, I am all for the DL deal!I'm not qualified to "author" a pinch hitter course (not a CFI or an expert in flight training) but it used to be a fairly common thing when I started flying back in the 80's. I'm aware of more than one story of a spouse landing fairly complex airplanes (twins even) after the S.O./pilot became incapacitated in flight.
The first thing I did when my wife took first ride with me in my RV-12 was show her the "level" button on the Garmin autopilot controller, talk about how to raise someone on the radio, etc. No substitute for a pinch hitter class but I think it's only a matter of time before that button is given credit for saving a life (if it hasn't happened yet).
I think your idea, 5-10 hours training - enough to do some basic aircraft control, communicate, and follow instructions from a pilot on the ground - is a good place to start but that's just an opinion.
Interesting related story: when I first got my PPL back in the early 80's, the check pilot was well into his 80's and a little frail to my eyes. As a young doctor, I remember thinking "what do I do if he keels over?" - this was instinctive and turned out to be not too far off the mark. Two weeks to the day later, he died in his sleep.
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I fear your "colleagues" may represent a small sub-set of the AME community. It was my understanding that the AME community is the second strongest voice/lobby, behind the FAA itself, fighting to maintain the third class medical requirement. It is possible that the AMA or lobby organization is only acting on their behalf without their support, but I find it difficult to believe that the AME community, at large, would prefer that the medical requirements go away. If this were the case, we would see evidence via a shrinking supply of AME's willing to perform them. I suspect very few AME's are performing this service purely as a courtesy to us pilots. They may not find it highly profitable, but if they can't fill their calendar with more profitable visits, it still covers fixed costs. The AME that I visit does nothing but aviation work and I would suspect 3rd class is more than half his business. While he me agree with me that 3rd class medicals don't increase safety (he doesn't, by the way), I can't see him advocating the collapse of his business. I don't know how he would keep the lights on without 3rd class medical work.
Larry
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I cannot argue with you here. I was speaking strictly to those of my colleagues who have expressed support for the DL medical. It's also reasonable to think that (knowing the mindset of a typical pilot, particularly those with a Y chromosome) AME's probably find a significant amount of pathology that would otherwise be missed - no doubt this has a tendency to reinforce the idea of the value of a medical for pilots. And no one is advocating the abolition of Class I/II medicals. I would like to see more evidence behind some of the policies around decision-making for all types of medicals. The pace of change relative to medical knowledge is abysmally slow, and in my opinion many if not most of the policies are based on "experience", not evidence.
There are many issues at play here, and as you point out, there are AME practices that have found a way to make a profit dong aeromedical exams. These probably include:
- using mid-level providers to assist in the process, signed off by the physician. (Back in the day when I was flying with a medical, this was the case)
- high volume
- servicing a population that includes a high volume of Class I/II exams which increase testing and other revenue sources
- providing a wide range of testing/diagnostic services in the practice
Most people are not aware that the AMA does not represent the majority of physicians. I know many members and leaders - they are well meaning, but I chose not to belong as I never found the AMA to be aligned with my viewpoint. The medical profession, compared to many others, has a poor track record politically and the AMA is an example of how the void gets filled.
Having been a flight surgeon and qualified as an AME I understand the viewpoint but I no longer agree - the evidence is just not there and the expense is huge relative to any value provided.
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roadrunner20
Well Known Member
FWIW, I used Safari with no issues
Thanks - and corrected!
BSwayze
Well Known Member
So where can a person find a copy of this form, just to look it over and read it? I'm about to go in for my first medical, and I've never seen this form before. I would at least like to review it, look it over, and have an idea of what I'm in for, before logging on to a government website and filling out forms.
edit: Never mind... I'm not sure how current it is, but I found a .pdf copy online.
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You can go to the web site medxpress.faa.gov, register, and see the form. You can just hit "cancel" at the bottom without filling anything in, if you like.
Note to others: I now see the "save" buttons, using Safari, even though it still says "USE IE only" at the top. I must have done something wrong before.
Thank you, Bob! I'll look at that, too. Call me paranoid, but I hesitate a bit before even logging on to government websites these days, without knowing a thing or two first.
Yes, I understand. What gets glossed over is that along the way they will ask you to "check this box that shows that you are giving up your constitutional right against unreasonable search" (different words, of course). If you don't check the box you cannot get a medical. If you do check the box they will search the driver databases. For new pilots (first time applicants), if you have ever had a DUI conviction you had better have reported it on the form, or there's trouble. Worse, there have been a few people who held a pilot's license but were inactive (no medical) for many years. During that time they had a DUI and did not report it to the FAA. Now they want to get flying again. If this is you you need to talk to a lawyer. The FAA has denied some applications because technically you must report a DUI to the FAA within 60 days even if you are not actively flying.
n981ms
Well Known Member
Larry,
It sounds like to your current AME its just a business. I suspect if you will step outside the Mode C veil of O'Hare you may have a better experience.
I am assuming yours is in or near Schaumburg/Chicago. If so, he is in close proximity to O'Hare and lots of Class I and II physicals. And, admittedly, lots of Class IIIs. But, I would be a little surprised if the lion's share of his business is 3rd class physicals.
Incidentally you can search for AMEs here:
http://ame.cami.jccbi.gov/search.asp
Click on their certificate number and it will give you more info.
5 out of the 6 AMEs listed for Chicago (similar for Atlanta) do not hold a pilots certificate. Check the small to medium size towns and the stats are more like 50% (based on a quick nonscientific look around Georgia.) I have absolutely nothing against anyone's business but I personally would support a fellow pilot or former pilot. They may have a better perspective on where you are coming from. I know I would not support one who is against the DL in lieu of 3rd class medical.
I am also not in the AMA nor do I know a physician who is.
It sounds like to your current AME its just a business. I suspect if you will step outside the Mode C veil of O'Hare you may have a better experience.
I am assuming yours is in or near Schaumburg/Chicago. If so, he is in close proximity to O'Hare and lots of Class I and II physicals. And, admittedly, lots of Class IIIs. But, I would be a little surprised if the lion's share of his business is 3rd class physicals.
Incidentally you can search for AMEs here:
http://ame.cami.jccbi.gov/search.asp
Click on their certificate number and it will give you more info.
5 out of the 6 AMEs listed for Chicago (similar for Atlanta) do not hold a pilots certificate. Check the small to medium size towns and the stats are more like 50% (based on a quick nonscientific look around Georgia.) I have absolutely nothing against anyone's business but I personally would support a fellow pilot or former pilot. They may have a better perspective on where you are coming from. I know I would not support one who is against the DL in lieu of 3rd class medical.
I am also not in the AMA nor do I know a physician who is.
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Waterobert
Active Member
Well, got it done. No need to worry about it again for two years.
