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Help Vertical Power Develop New Product

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Yes Bill. These are not mutually exclusive. We could do an integrated box and individual contactor replacements.

Just not all at once. ;)
 
Here's a picture of the first prototype case that came in recently. By building the model in SolidWorks, we can work out a lot of the bugs in the model before making the first real part. It appears that all the main connectors fit properly (pictures coming soon), but the bottom lip is not quite right.

Here's the model:

Empty_case_model.png


Here's the real thing:

Empty_case.JPG
 
We are evaluating and prioritizing the feedback received so far. Thanks and keep it coming!

The circuitry has not been finalized - we're working through different designs at this point. Some of the features may be be incorporated - we'll let you know as things progress. Other features could be included in other versions of this product line.

Below are some pictures of the prototype case with the power lugs installed. It is still empty at this point. We'll have one of these in our booth as well as one in Stein's booth.

PPS1.JPG


PPS2.JPG


PPS3.JPG
 
I would also be interested in individual contactor replacements.

Is that box weather proof? I've lost some firewall mounted electronics due to water already ...
 
Is that box weather proof? I've lost some firewall mounted electronics due to water already ...

We're determining how 'weather proof' it needs to be. Anyone have any thoughts to share on the subject?
 
Not that critical

We're determining how 'weather proof' it needs to be. Anyone have any thoughts to share on the subject?

Hi Marc,

As long as the individual pieces are reasonably sealed I don't see an issue. Our current stuff is exposed. The plug with the starter switch wires, etc is on the cold side, so no problems there.

Good start. Can't wait to see it.
 
It does look great. I have an RV6A, 14 years old, and have been planning to upgrade the original system. This will fit just right.
:)
 
OSH Update

Well, we brought some prototypes to the show to get more feedback. We'll post some of that feedback soon, but had just a quick few moments to post some pictures from a visit over to Stein's booth. Here's Stein and Mike from SteinAir who are also helping us get feedback.

Come by and visit us in Hangar D or SteinAir in Hangar C.

Stein2.JPG


Mike showing off the old way and the new way!

Stein1.JPG
 
I want I want I want...

I want, want, want it!!! Where's the line :D You can mark one sold :D

Yeah, I know its a ways out but still. ;)
 
Weather proofing

If you are familiar with electrical standards, I think a nema 3R enclosure would be more than adequate . Basically rain proof, that's it

Bird
 
I'm for it as well. I would like to have it incorporate or at least interface with an external power plug like to Cirrus box has.
 
The system is all our own design - we are not using third-party relays.

We now have a draft INSTALLATION MANUAL with wiring diagrams on our web site here. (scroll down to the PPS section)

Surely not? Not to be an a$$, but do grow your own chips, make the relay housings, weld to the chips etc? That seems to be a high capital/volume business? Teach me something new.

Oh - Most solid state have a voltage shoot through issue, and thus a rated, validated voltage for robustness, and seem to derate at some ambient temperature.

How is the errant voltage handled, and what is the full amp rated temperature environment capability? I LOVE solid state devices that are properly designed for robustness, simple and the ultimate in reliability and life.

One more thing - I am sitting with the parts to assemble, and see that electrical systems are like DNA, no two are alike. Some commonality here for schematics, locations, mounting holes, wire routing that allow for building rather than design with a drill and crimper instead of a mouse and solid modeling would certainly be welcomed, at least by me. Cost is an object, as I have a relatively simple panel and it still cost more than my first house and first 4 cars combined.

Thanks for including your potential customers in your process, that is your best idea. Having worked in a research department for 10 years, the most difficult thing was to interpret what customers "wanted" from what they would "buy" and what they really "needed". The best process (of thousands that did not work) we used was the analytical hierarchy process, AHP in a comparative matrix. Happy development!
 
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I'm for it as well. I would like to have it incorporate or at least interface with an external power plug like to Cirrus box has.

In my case, since I've never used one in the years I've owned my Cessna 180, I wouldn't want one. It wouldn't be necessary. But if it were a built-in part of the unit, its extra size and weight would preclude this product.

Dave
RV-3B, now building wings
 
Hi Marc

An interesting concept, and trust the feedback on here has been useful?

Couple of queries / requests / suggestions:
  1. What is the Starter Current relay good for? Or specified at purchase?
  2. Can the Unit output the equivalent of an Alternator Warning light, or at least Low Volt (like the Starter light offered)?
  3. What current rating will the Alternator terminal have? Or user specified at purchase?
  4. I understand the new breed of Li batteries are safe, but if Master left on and Battery drains below X V they are ruined. The suppliers sell at added cost/weight a relay to isolate the battery before that occurs. Could be worth incorporating here?
 
Adding ground power input

Hi Marc,

After discussing this with a couple of your team members in the booth at Oshkosh this week, I see immense value in this product. However, I have one ask: please add the ability to connect to ground power (a GPU - one can assume the power is already DC at the same voltage as the system).

This would help enable the operation of the plane's systems on the ground without actually running the engine or depleting the battery(ies).

This alone would make the proposed device even more useful.

Thanks!
 
If you are familiar with electrical standards, I think a nema 3R enclosure would be more than adequate . Basically rain proof, that's it

Bird
How about NEMA 4X instead? Per Wikipedia, NEMA 4 is "Watertight (weatherproof). Must exclude at least 65 GPM of water from 1-in. nozzle delivered from a distance not less than 10 ft for 5 min. Used outdoors on ship docks, in dairies, and in breweries. The 4X model has corrosion resistance."

TODR
 
A new product is usually a combination of existing circuits and new circuits. As the new circuit designs mature, we eventually get to the point where we need to make simple prototypes to test them out.

On the VP-X we have a microprocessor to control and report the circuit’s behavior – for example detecting a short circuit or over-current condition, then shutting it down, then reporting it to the EFIS.

But on the PPS none of this is needed so we decided to develop the solution without a microprocessor. In this case it can detect short circuits but not the fine level of detail the VP-X can detect. And frankly it does not need to. It just needs to protect against short circuit conditions or gross excursions from the rated load limits.

Another benefit is that we can use high temp range components. Normally we use components rated to 85 deg C (185 deg F), which is plenty for the cockpit environment. But for the engine compartment our goal is higher and that is difficult to do with integrated circuits. So we’ve done some extra design work and used discreet components instead to meet the higher temperature goals.

Below is mock up of the circuit that latches the electronic circuit breakers off when there is a fault. It also includes a reset mechanism so you can reset a “blown fuse” from the cockpit.

testcircuit.JPG


Next step after the mockups work is to do a schematic review with the team.
 
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MTBF

With any new development there is an unknown MTBF. If I lose a starter cont. I can probably find one anywhere I might fly. Any analysis on MTBF you can share?
 
I am at the point of needing to order one or will have to buy new parts to wire the old fashion way as I'm changing out my battery, wiring (will be going VP-X) and switching steam gauges to a Dynon/AFS panel.....any idea on the ETA for sellable units? :D
 
With any new development there is an unknown MTBF. If I lose a starter cont. I can probably find one anywhere I might fly. Any analysis on MTBF you can share?
Ditto. Can you provide reference links to info on the technology and reliability of the components?
 
If I lose a starter cont. I can probably find one anywhere I might fly.

My experience is that FBOs may carry 24v parts but rarely 12v parts. So it'll likely take you as long to get a 12v starter as it will take us to ship you a replacement unit overnight.

No MTBF numbers yet, but it should be higher than the VP-X which is significantly higher than mechanical breakers.
 
If I lose a starter cont. I can probably find one anywhere I might fly.

This brings up the larger issue when we build our experimental planes: stick with traditional equipment that may be easier to fix, or, modern equipment that must simply be replaced when it fails.

I and many others are going the latter route: glass panels, electronic ignition, and Vertical Power's electronic "buss". I thought about this some before that decision, and figured that overnight shipping of a failed part would be about as fast as trying to find a mechanic to fix a traditional piece of equipment. Further, with my mission as VFR, I could limp home with a failed glass panel, say, using an iPad as backup.
 
I could limp home with a failed glass panel, say, using an iPad as backup.

Just make sure you the FAA required instruments, like a compass, airspeed indicator and alitimeter or their equivalent, for VFR flight. I doubt that an iPad qualifies.

That's why I kept those instruments as backups in my panel even with a 2 screen G3X.
 
Just make sure you the FAA required instruments, like a compass, airspeed indicator and alitimeter or their equivalent, for VFR flight. I doubt that an iPad qualifies.

That's why I kept those instruments as backups in my panel even with a 2 screen G3X.

But none of those is actually required for flight in an experimental - at least legally.
 
My experience is that FBOs may carry 24v parts but rarely 12v parts. So it'll likely take you as long to get a 12v starter as it will take us to ship you a replacement unit overnight.

No MTBF numbers yet, but it should be higher than the VP-X which is significantly higher than mechanical breakers.
He mentioned contactors. These are widely available from stores and other hangars on the road. (I carry a spare personally.) You have any links to the critical components (solid state relays?) you're proposing to use in your new device that set you apart from conventional? How do you manage the high current load of starting? Parallel devices? I'm all about moving into new technology when I can balance the risk, performance, convenience vs. available personal resources equation.
 
Just make sure you the FAA required instruments, like a compass, airspeed indicator and alitimeter or their equivalent, for VFR flight.

A while ago I asked about this in the Glass Cockpit forum of VAF: for VFR, if you had included round gages with your glass panel, would you do it again? If you had not, do you wish you had? Most responded to the effect they weren't useful. I'm going to leave space for 3 small gages, but not install them.
 
My own experience with user-replaceable/reparable components, compared to sealed, integrated devices is that when the new sealed can't-work-on-them stuff is available, it's often - not always - more reliable than what's been replaced.

In other words, you can't repair them but then again odds are you won't ever need to.

This experience has been more than balanced by quite a dismal experience set from being an early adopter of technology. I now prefer some service history before committing. And since I figure I'm a year or 18 months from that stage, I hope that y'all do a good rigorous job of wringing these things out for me. Kindly remember to report back and let us know.

Thanks much!
Dave

Dave
 
Update Aug 17

We've been making progress on the design, although we haven't finalized the feature set. With all the great suggestions it appears the best strategy isn't to put everything in one box, but have several products in the product line that address different needs.

Right now we've been working on the schematic with the intent of building a prototype board to perform lab testing on the robustness of the system itself as well as insuring the circuit protection and features work as planned. Here is Josh working on the PCB layout:

circuit.JPG


So once we go through the review process and order the PCBs we'll have a few proto boards to begin lab testing with.

Based on your feedback, we've also been looking at a way to simulate a standard shunt so that you can connect your EFIS ammeter gauge inputs directly to the PPS. This would mean NO stand-alone shunts on the firewall at all. Very clean and simple!
 
Starter Interlock

We received feedback in this thread and other threads that builders would like some sort of security feature on the starter circuit.

Below are two ideas - what do you think? Any preference?

A small keypad and status light (2 pictures)

keypad_side.JPG


keypadproto.JPG


A keyfob - press the button and the starter is enabled. We can also include a status light for the instrument panel.

1button.JPG
 
I like the fob! When I had metioned earlier in this thread about a proximity fob I had reconsidered because althogh it would be secure (not start) while Im away if I happen to be nearby an an unsupervised kid or numbskull gets in it would be "hot". Your solution takes care of that while still be remote operated and keyless with no code to remember. Id be happy with either but the door lock style pictured above looks beeter with the backlighting than the pad you have. Great work!
 
Is this something the current vp-x could implement? Only problem with the key fob is what if you lose it on XC? Or the battery dies, or you take it swimming, etc?
 
Security??

Is this really an issue? I see a solution to problem that doesn't really exist. I think if had RV's being stolen on a regular basis, we'd know about it, then I'd be concerned.

How many have some sort of security device now?

I rather see a focus on an Aux power lead or some of the other suggestions here.
 
I'd prefer an old-fashioned key. When I'm on a trip, I often put a key on a loop of string around my neck, and it's secure swimming, jogging, etc. Easy to hide a spare, very reliable, waterproof and easy to check that's it's around my neck.

With a bit of luck maybe - just maybe - we can get a key that matches the Newton locking gas caps and even include a canopy lock set.

If so, then one key will do the airplane.

Dave
 
Key fobs in the car context have a habit of failing (ie breaking), and it is a bit irritating to be absolutely stranded.
This seems to me to be adding complexity to solve a non existent problem. The equivalent of in the medical field, "the worried well" patient.
So I think such a security feature should definitely be optional, as for me it would severely make me shie away from your product if it is a single point of failure ( not safety related, but stranded unless hand prop the aircraft).
John
 
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To clarify, this is envisioned as a separate product that can optionally be used with the VP-X, the primary power system, or old-fashion wiring.
 
Marc
Thanks. Much relief.
In that case, I would suggest a mechanical key is more reliable, smaller to carry, but I guess more wiring to panel required.
John
 
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For anyone using a start button, they likely also have switches for the mags ( maybe a few still have keyed mags?) for those people there is a safety issue of accidental start and hot mags. The Vp-x has the starter switch disabled under a certain rpm which is great but if the mags switches are left on, get bumped or are played with, we have a hot prop where we thought we did not. The keypad, or fob are (for me) about making that situation safer. If you are not in that situation you surly would rather not have that feature incorporated.

Additionally, if anyone went the route of a starter switch and toggle/rocker switched mags they may have already made a concerted effort to not have to have a key/fob for whatever reason. Those people will like the keypad. If you are perhaps a little on the techie side you will like the fob.

Im sure the majority just have keys :)rolleyes: and like their steam gauges). I still like the fob. Between what devices would the fob operated switch be?
 
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I can just imagine the trouble ticket calls from the "users"; help, I can't get the airplane to start in this desert SW and I'm going to die!
I manage a team that answers such calls every day that are .00005 such as profound. No way would I implement that. My 2c.
 
As we discussed at Oshkosh, put a delay on the key fob so you have to hold it for a couple of seconds. It would prevent accidentally hitting it, like the car key fob panic button that sets the alarm off when it is in your pocket.

I like the form factor of the automobile keyless entry, too. Could you make the keypad such that entering the code and then pressing, say #, would engage the starter? That would eliminate another push button or switch...
 
The disadvantage of the keypad is obvious, finding space in the panel. The disadvantages of the key fob have also been pointed out by several here. And both of these options require additional equipment and the possible failure thereof.

How about something like a virtual keypad that shows up on your EFIS screen? Like the ATM machine, where you touch the screen and enter your password. This could all be done with software programming and not even require more equipment. I would like it even more if it's an optional feature that can be turned off when not needed or desired, which may be 99% of the time for many pilots and many flights. Yet, when I'm traveling cross country somewhere and my plane is on a strange ramp overnight or for several days, or if I'm traveling out of the country, for instance, I'd like the added security of being able to turn it on. Your starter circuit is disabled until you fire up the EFIS and enter your own password.

Any thoughts or comments? What do you think? :)
 
I'm with Scott and support the completely virtual system (in ones head) that has no existence in reality.
 
There are already devices on the market to lock out your battery while you are away. When I wired my Cobra, I used a Battery Brain device that is activated with a key fob. I didn't install a traditional ignition key, just a start switch and I didn't want a stranger driving off in the car while parked.

The same device would work well in an airplane. Just bolt it in-line from the positive terminal on the battery and you are set to go.

Of course, there are failure scenarios that would need to be considered. I haven't thought that through so I'm not recommending you go out and do this, just saying that there are devices out there already that provide this capability.
 
No thanks.

Ah, the lure of electronic wizardry :eek:

Cost, weight, complexity, additional failure points, difficulty in troubleshooting problems..........

Give me a simple old key switch.
 
An idea I have been toying with for the mag grounds on my 7, if I ever get to that stage before senility sets in, is 2 rows of 3 or 4 unmarked (After the DAR inspection) toggle switches wired in such a way that all have to be in the correct position to open the ground connection, with me of course being the only one knowing the correct sequence. With 3 switches per mag, there are 8 possible combinations per mag, 16 possible per mag with 4 switches, plus the thief would have to know that ungrounding the mags is the purpose of those switches to begin with. Like I said, however, advancing senility would make it difficult to operate the aircraft, which is perhaps not a bad thing.

This probably would be difficult to implement on a marketed device such as the VP units, but maybe a variation on the theme with a row of buttons that have to be pressed in the proper sequence would be workable, but then we are back at the equivalent of the keypad anyway.
 
Marc,
Great ideas. I am in favor of the keypad. I do not like the idea of losing the fob. By the way, I have been using the VPX pro system on my new plane and absolutely love it. Keep developing new products.

Bernie
N579DB -RV9
 
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