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Sell me the benefits of Glass

Build9A

Build9A

Well Known Member
When I built my RV9A all of the new fancy smancy EFIS products were just coming out. I went all steam gauges --day/night VFR. I was planning to upgrade when all the bugs got ironed out. All of my instruments and guages have worked fine for the past 5 years. I added a Garmin 496 with weather and an EZ pilot auto pilot.

I really like the looks of several of the glass panel products that are out now. Skyview caught my eye. However, If I find $4,000 buried in my back yard, why should I install skyview (or something similar)? Other than how cool it looks and operates, what is it going to do for a 100% VFR pilot that my current guages can't accomplish? Don't tell me to get an IFR rating, not going to do it. Please don't tell me how stupid I am for not wanting IFR. I'm sure I wouldn't be comfortable flying something "I" built in true IFR conditions. I'm too old (62) for the added stress and workload. I'm happy to stay on the ground.

I will admit that I am ticked off that I could buy a Skyview and all the bells and whistles cheaper than my steam guages 5 years ago. I'm just not sure I want to spring for the $4,000 just to look cool. It does look real cool or bad or dope or whatever you youngsters say these days.
 
If your current instruments are working just fine I see no benefit, other than looks cool, of going to glass.

If you are happy flying VFR there is no really good reason to get an IFR ticket.

Changing to glass would involve work, expense, and you might end up not enjoying flying behind it.

When I first converted from steam to glass I did not like it at all and it took me a lot of hours to get used to it.

If you were starting from scratch or were having major problems with your old panel I would consider changing to glass.
 
You didn't mention if you currently have an electronic engine monitor.

I have the non-skyview Dynon stuff. Here are the things I use all the time that you do not get with the traditional stuff:

* EMS monitoring and alerts. You will know the second your oil pressure drops or your CHT spikes, etc.
* When combined with your EMS and fuel flow sensor your EFIS will tell you range (in time and distance at present airspeed/fuel settings). It's really neat to slow down the airplane, lean it out and watch the range shoot up.
* Real-time winds aloft. When established on final at an airport with no AWOS/ATIS just glance down for one last check on the winds.
* Real-time density altitude calculations.

These are the features that I use most of the time. If your mission is VFR-only I really think the Skyview is probably overkill -- but it sure is pretty. :)

Best,
Jamie
 
For local flying it really adds little. For flying away from my "patch", it's handy for visual navigation, which I find much easier than solely relying on navaids. I have no problem navigating around by VOR but I've seen more than a few airports that I could not spot until I was almost on top of them. Add to that the fact that I seem to be developing a dyslexia regarding headings, and it becomes really handy to look down at a moving map and being able to see which direction and distance the airport should be. Depending on the landmark detail on the display, it becomes super easy to spot an airport (even a dirt one in the desert...).

It also helps in airspace awareness. Just last week our group flew to Temple Bar. Direct from KFLG cuts across the Grand Canyon airspace; navigating via radials and allowing for error means a wide dogleg. The GPS/map allows you to nearly nick the corner. It's also a good reminder when you see a line approaching that you had forgotten.

Finally, it's really great for position reporting. I can quickly give bearing to/from a location, plus distance. It's like flying a VORTAC, but it's always on the airport, even on the private strips. I'd like to think that I could announce my position fairly accurately in the event of an emergency, possibly speeding up rescue. Much better than "engine failure near White Mountain", especially if I'm somewhere I don't know the local landmarks.
 
For building a new project it's all about weight, reliability, wiring simplicity and bang for the buck.

They weigh less than traditional vacuum systems. There is no vacuum pump to fail or gyro to tumble while doing aerobatics. You only have to wire up one box (maybe 2) and some of the wiring is done for you. You can get an EFIS and EMS for just north of $4000 that has more gauges, clocks, buzzers and buttons than you would ever need.

If building strictly day VFR with no gyro's then I probably wouldn't go with an EFIS. I would not retrofit a day VFR airplane for an EFIS either.
 
It does look cool, I want one, and might someday. In the meantime, my Garmin 696 has most all the info I need, for airspace boundaries, etc. and especially the Grand Canyon airspace as previously noted.

However, I'm aware of quite a few cases in which VFR pilots found themselves in predicaments, they hadn't planned on. Out here in the mountain region we get whiteouts & low clouds that can sneak up on the unwary. And it's this suddenly rising terrain that bites the pilot and passengers. Some were in darkness, but others in daylight hours. In situations such as these, synthetic vision would be marvelous (once it has all the data), but my Garmin 696 would have made all the difference too.

I do like some info in a prior reply, though. The idea of seeing hard to find runways on synthetic vision would even be lot's easier than getting the info from the GPS. Because so many just seem to blend into the landscape.

L.Adamson --- RV6A, steam & the 696
 
Glory Be! A Luddite Curmudgeon just like me!

Stick with the analogs if it's not a new installation and all's well operationally.

An EFIS doesn't add anything that's not already available somewhere else in the cockpit, with the exception of a computer to replace the prayer wheel and TAS ring on the AS. That computer really reduces the workload, though. The particular functions I like most are real-time TAS, and GS - if it talks to a GPS or has one imbedded. EFISs do have the desirable characteristic of not precessing or tumbling, but that's of little value if you don't do IFR. They're useful as the centerpiece in integrating complex avionics suites.

When one of your gyros needs overhaul, then think about installing a Dynon D6 or D-10A. EFIS life-cycle costs are much less than mechanical gyros, especially if you've a vacuum system that can be tossed out also.

As to the Skyview, bah. I've no interest in cluttering up the background with a kaleidescope of varying colors and shapes when I'm trying to pay attention to the all-important AH and DG. If it's VFR, look outside. If it's IFR, fly the charts. The only scenario I can imagine it could be valuable is in a non-radar environment, at night, in the clag (like Aspen, CO), or ATC sends you through the localizer and nobody notices you're about to CFIT. But that's not your situation. either, and I'd bet 99.99% of all RV drivers.

A real downside of most EFISs is legibility and comprehendability. Look at any magazine ad for a shiny new gee whiz EFIS. Betcha can't make out any of the numbers on the display, and you must read and interpret them. Then there's the issue of sunlight wash-out. But those back-up analogs in the picture... you can read 'em, or at least tell what the value should be by needle position.

John Siebold
 
Pro-EFIS Old Guy

RV7ator said:
...
An EFIS doesn't add anything that's not already available somewhere else in the cockpit...

A real downside of most EFISs is legibility and comprehendability. Look at any magazine ad for a shiny new gee whiz EFIS. Betcha can't make out any of the numbers on the display, and you must read and interpret them. Then there's the issue of sunlight wash-out. But those back-up analogs in the picture... you can read 'em, or at least tell what the value should be by needle position.

John Siebold
Click to expand...

As another older person, sometimes described as a curmudgeon, too, I respectfully disagree. My remarks are based on my GRT; I have not flown other brands. I do think many of them are very good, too.

Legibility: My EFIS is bigger than a normal instrument, clear and contrasty in all conditions, PERIOD. It wins hands-down on legibility.
Additional Information: Sorry, John, but it does provide more information. A lot more. Much of it is useful VFR.
Comprehend-ability: The EFIS integrates information much better than the six-pack and additional round gauges. Even giving away that it provides more information, the information is much easier to understand and in IFR conditions, the scan becomes a tiny effort by comparison. GPS and magnetic information are presented however you want them for comparison.
Accuracy: no precession, no drift, no compass bounce, no turning or acceleration error, digits when you need or want them. This is a no-contest area.

I would never go back. If you are happy, leave well enough alone, but for under $2,000 you can get a good attitude EFIS and for double that, move your engine monitoring up an order of magnitude.
 
thanks guys

Great comments all. Keep em coming if you have an interest or additional insight. thanks, jack
 
I grew up on round gauges, now have (mostly) glass. While I love the glass, I'm not sure I would do a major upgrade to glass, if I didn't already have it. I am currently adding a 430W, but I am going IFR, so that is a different story. If you were just building I would recommend a large EFIS, but at this point you might consider pulling one instrument--perhaps the VSI or altimeter--and replacing it with a D-10A or similar. With that, you would get many of the goodies (winds aloft, solid compass, density alt, TAS, etc) without too much work or expense. You wouldn't have synthetic vision, but I assume even at your advanced age you are still able to look outside. That often works just as well, I have been told. If the D-10A works for you, you could live with it or continue with a more extensive upgrade. If not, switch back and sell the D-10A. Bet you would like it, though. BTW, I am 5 years older than you.

Bob Kelly
 
Like you, I'm a VFR kind of guy and doubt I will ever go IFR. This is a hobby, not an occupation and keeping current IFR is just not what I want to do.

Prior to building my -9, I was really into antiques and the fewer gauges, the better. IMHO

After flying behind the Dynon 100 EFIS, D10 EMS, and Garmin 496 w/ weather I can't imagine going back. There is just so much information on those screens, it is stunning. Things like automatic TAS, wind direction, HSI, G-meter, and a LOT more.

Should you get caught in the clouds, the EFIS screens are easier to scan (IMHO) and bla, bla, bla.

The problem with any of the EFIS systems is that they do require software upgrades. That is just the nature of the animal.

I've never flown a Stearman or J-3 that required a software upgrade.

Other positive things to think about, they are simple to install (during the build, retrofits are always a pain!), lighter, and probably more reliable.
 
Its the mission

If the gauges fit your mission and continue to operate properly, I would see no reason to change. The advantages and disadvantages to glass have already been spelled out pretty well, so it really boils down to what you need for your type of flying and whether making a change is worth the time, effort, and cost. FWIW, I started my 9 in 2007 thinking I would prefer traditional gauges, but ended up going with glass for reasons of weight, information (particularly the engine monitoring), and resale (only after I'm dead and gone, of course!). But that was a new install also, so maybe isn't too relevant other than to give you some background on me.

greg
 
Glass is not a large benefit to VFR, but is really valuable IFR

I fly the AFS AF3500 on both sides and use their flight director to minimize my scan while flying and ILS or GPS approach. It corrects for wind and my plates are integrated. Hands down, it reduces my workload by 50% to a six pack setup. Now couple it with an autopilot which is much harder to do on older instruments and it will fly down a GPS approach, level at minimums and basically make flying IFR both safe and reliable. The flight director means you have no more scan, just stick the attitude indicator under the flight director and and it does the rest. Manage airspeed and you are done. I hand fly every 3rd approach or so to make sure I am still comfortable doing that and use back up instruments every 10 approaches to get down safely if not all that precisely. I can honestly say that the EFIS is actually worth double the value of the steam gauges to me, and cost about the same.
 
For day VFR only, I'd sell you on steam gauges. Better "at-a-glance" readability, longer lifespan (will your legacy EFIS be supported and working in 10+ years?), cheaper. A GPS would be nice to have, I really like having the 696 around the odd shapes of the DFW/DAL Class B. The EIS functions are nice but not required.

For day/night VFR it's a toss up. You need a horizon reference, and most EFIS cost about the same as a gyro. If you have something like an Trutrak ADI or ADI Pilot, you're Ok. EFIS is already lit, no light rings needed.

For IFR, it's clear that glass is the way to go. Easier IFR scan, integrated terrain warnings, EIS alarms that appear on the EFIS, so it's in your scan. Glass should be cheaper and more reliable.

The only other reason (in my mind, anyway) to go with glass is if you just don't have much panel space, e.g., RV-3 / -4.

I've flown the same model of airplane, one steam gauges and a G696, the other one dual dynon and a 496. For day VFR flight, I preferred the steam gauge airplane. For night VFR or IFR, I'd probably want the glass.

TODR
 
I don't think we need to talk you into anything, if what you have works for you then go with it. I learned on the regular six pack. I had hundreds maybe a thousand hours of computer simulator time before I actually took flying lessons and got my PPL. I have the dual AFS 3500 EFIS in my RV-10, I love it. I attribute the ease of learning that system to my computer flight sim days. I'm just shy of being classified as a "Luddite Curmudgeon " I'm 48 and grew up with first green CRT's then VGA then full blown computer graphics. If you like all your flight information crammed into a 5" x 5" or so screen and your eyes and mind work in unison to interpret that info then go for it. The Skyview system looks great..lots of thing to consider. Scott Schmidt made a comment several years ago after he had first flown his RV-10 and I'm paraphrasing...He said all that interior and panel is nice but you don't find yourself looking at it all that much, you just keep looking outside and enjoy the view. Now on a long cross country with the autopilot flying and all the engine instrumentation in a nice, compact setup that allows me to adjust for LOP operations, monitor all the engine functions and adjust as needed I find the EFIS invaluable. I think in a nutshell I can say that on long trips with an auto pilot, the EFIS allows you to better "manage" the flight. So in essence you act as the flight manager/pilot. It is just another tool that you may or may not find fits your idea of flying. My very good friend has a Super Cub, minimal instrumentation...and it's pure fun flying at it's best. It has no EFIS and is blast to fly. His only regret is that he can't do what we as experimental builders can do...install and EFIS...go figure. Now I've come full circle.
 
great comments

A lot of great comments and advice. I'll probably stick with the steam gauges if I only come across $4000. But if I come into some serious cash, I'll probably spring for the glass just to have a more modern airplane and look cooler. My wife or kids will have to sell my plane. Don't plan on having another one. So the glass might help their bottom line. thanks to all of the posters.
 
Build9A said:
A lot of great comments and advice. I'll probably stick with the steam gauges if I only come across $4000. But if I come into some serious cash, I'll probably spring for the glass just to have a more modern airplane and look cooler. My wife or kids will have to sell my plane. Don't plan on having another one. So the glass might help their bottom line. thanks to all of the posters.
Click to expand...

If you don't want to spend $4000 and still want an all singing and dancing EFIS (actually, it's more $$ once you start adding up all the bits) - there is only one answer: WAIT.

EFIS systems are getting better - FAST.
EFIS systems are getting cheaper - FAST.

This year is going to be a lot of fun...

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
L.Adamson said:
However, I'm aware of quite a few cases in which VFR pilots found themselves in predicaments, they hadn't planned on. Out here in the mountain region we get whiteouts & low clouds that can sneak up on the unwary. And it's this suddenly rising terrain that bites the pilot and passengers. Some were in darkness, but others in daylight hours. In situations such as these, synthetic vision would be marvelous (once it has all the data), but my Garmin 696 would have made all the difference too.
Click to expand...

Yeah, my BMA has the synthetic vision and it looks very nice but I don't pay a lot of attention to it. For one thing, depending on the scale you have the display at, the accuracy may not be sufficient. Also, it does not show general obstruction - don't fly too close to the terrain or you may impact a tall tree! I'll admit it was a comfort factor flying out of Sedona one night; it showed the canyon walls well to the sides and, quickly, below me. But I didn't trust it or relax until I saw the lights of KFLG a few seconds later. EFISs, SV or not, are great for quick orienteering and general position awareness but they are, in the end, just an instrument. My biggest concern with glass is that people will fall into the "it's a computer, so it must be right" trap.

That said, and having studied the failure modes of my EFIS in much the same fashion as I did partial panel for my PVT, I really enjoy flying behind glass. I'm planning a Garmin 900X for the -10.

By the way, I just realized another benefit of glass. I had great difficulty in night flying in seeing my instruments. Panel lighting in 152s generally sucked. That night flight from Sedona I mentioned? I turned down the display and could still read it perfectly and yet my outside vision was still adequate (not much to see on a dark night in the mountains except lights). I haven't done much night flying since getting the RV airborne but that experience sold me; I actually got to enjoy the flight rather than struggling to see my instruments.
 
You big tease

Rainier Lamers said:
If you don't want to spend $4000 and still want an all singing and dancing EFIS (actually, it's more $$ once you start adding up all the bits) - there is only one answer: WAIT.

EFIS systems are getting better - FAST.
EFIS systems are getting cheaper - FAST.

This year is going to be a lot of fun...

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
Click to expand...

O.K., Rainier, now you have done it.

What do you have up your sleeve???
 
Glass:Cost & Resale

For those on the fence because of cost, it might benefit you to add up the value of your old six-pak and vacuum pump because there are tons of certifieds out there that don't enjoy the cheap and easy access we have to all that wonderful glass (think C-172). I've found you can almost bet on getting 75% of new value for that kind of stuff on the various auction sites. If it's decent, that is.

You just might realize enough $$$ for an easy transition to say, a Dynon Skyview for $5k or so.

Another thing, RESALE: If it comes time to sell your baby you will no doubt benefit from a better price for her...

It worked for me and my former partner, Cliff. We put a D100 in our -6a when it came out a few years ago and made all the difference in buyers' attitudes.


//////
 
Gadgets/Technology/Fun

I had all analog instrumentation and the only reason to replace them with glass panel as per the title. I like gadgets, keep up with technology and have fun upgrading the plane. Similar to having my plane "It is a great hobby" no other justification.:)
 
Rainier Lamers said:
Nope.

It's a badly kept secret, dig a bit and you may get lucky.
Not allowed to say anything else...

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
Click to expand...

Rainer,

Your Xtreme mini EFIS and EIS looks very interesting. I cannot find any details on installed weights and whether there is a backup battery option. What is the standalone system weight including backup battery if this is a feature?

Thanks in advance.
 
islandmonkey said:
Rainer,

Your Xtreme mini EFIS and EIS looks very interesting. I cannot find any details on installed weights and whether there is a backup battery option. What is the standalone system weight including backup battery if this is a feature?

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

The weight is so little we did not even bother specifying it yet. Not much over 1/2 pound if I had to hazzard a guess and low mounting depth requirements.
Battery backup is an option but the battery would be connected outside the unit (as with our other systems).
Current draw of the unit is extremely (pardon the pun) low, barely worth taking into account when you design your panel.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
Rainier Lamers said:
Nope.

It's a badly kept secret, dig a bit and you may get lucky.
Not allowed to say anything else...

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
Click to expand...

Ahh, the mysterious 'iEFIS' and maybe the also mysterious 'Explorer'.

Rumor has the 'iEFIS' to be fully touch screen controlled.

You didn't hear it from me,
 
Rainier Lamers said:
The weight is so little we did not even bother specifying it yet. Not much over 1/2 pound if I had to hazzard a guess and low mounting depth requirements.
Battery backup is an option but the battery would be connected outside the unit (as with our other systems).
Current draw of the unit is extremely (pardon the pun) low, barely worth taking into account when you design your panel.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
Click to expand...

Danke viel mal Rainier. I have signed up for email updates on the Xtreme. Do you have a German supplier?
 
Rainier Lamers said:
Yes, you will find the details on our website under "distributors".

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
Click to expand...

You have pretty much hidden away the link to "distributors" on your site. I cannot find it. I did look before that is why I asked the question. Maybe I am suffering from the typical mans disease of not being able to find anything. I could get my girlfriend to look.
 
islandmonkey said:
You have pretty much hidden away the link to "distributors" on your site. I cannot find it. I did look before that is why I asked the question. Maybe I am suffering from the typical mans disease of not being able to find anything. I could get my girlfriend to look.
Click to expand...

Look at the main MGL Avionics website at www.MGLAvionics.co.za - you will find the link on the left buttons (low down).

I assume you might be looking at www.MGLAvionics.com - that is the website of MGL Avionics USA which is not under my control.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
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