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Relief tube

dan

Well Known Member
Anybody got any slick designs for relief tubes in RVs? I use the "Travel John" gel packs and they work fine, but it would be nice not to have to bring 'em.

One RV pilot mentioned a 45 bulkhead fitting in the floor with tubing running up to a turkey baster. Curious if anybody has details on a system like this or otherwise that is foolproof. And by foolproof I mean -- no leaks, no drips, and ideally no mess on the outside of the airplane. I want to be able to use it, then cover/seal it, and put it down, without it leaking and/or stinkin' up the airplane.
 
Pretty funny. Dan, did you run out of things to tinker with :)). A bulkhead fitting and a turkey baster...LOL! The funniest part is that this is a serious conversation.

An RV10 could be setup with a marine toilet in the back!
 
That sucks.

dan said:
Anybody got any slick designs for relief tubes in RVs? I use the "Travel John" gel packs and they work fine, but it would be nice not to have to bring 'em.

One RV pilot mentioned a 45 bulkhead fitting in the floor with tubing running up to a turkey baster. Curious if anybody has details on a system like this or otherwise that is foolproof. And by foolproof I mean -- no leaks, no drips, and ideally no mess on the outside of the airplane. I want to be able to use it, then cover/seal it, and put it down, without it leaking and/or stinkin' up the airplane.

Gotta be careful of that venturi effect! :eek:
 
Corrosion comes to mind as well. I would run it as far back in the plane as possible.

If you do this... I won't be helping you grease that tailwheel anytime soon, Dan!

:D CJ
 
Relief Tube

Dan, is this what you mean when you say that you built a "Go plane, not a show plane?" :rolleyes: Couldn't resist. I'll be following this one to see what folks come up with.
 
dan said:
Anybody got any slick designs for relief tubes in RVs? I use the "Travel John" gel packs and they work fine, but it would be nice not to have to bring 'em.

QUOTE]

Holy sh*t Dan, you must be bored. Better start working on painting. I'm good for a four hour ride if I watch the water, coffee and diet soda consumption. The knot really helps. :D I'm more concerned about the cheese burger with jalapeno's kicking in about 20 minutes after departing :eek: Now that is uncomfortable!!!
 
RV7Guy said:
I'm good for a four hour ride if I watch the water, coffee and diet soda consumption.
Ditto, but I don't want to watch the hydration. I want to hydrate like crazy when I'm up at umpteen thou doing 2200+ miles on a summer day. Drink, pee, drink, pee...sniff O2 the whole time, and I'm fresh as a daisy when I arrive. Need that relief.
 
Dan,

Some useful items on this website:

www.wingsandwheels.com

The glider guys often go up with an external catheter on...looks alot like a condom, with a hose fitting on the end. As I understand it they even make pants which have an access port to hook you up in the plane.

They tell me that the occaisional flush of the lines keeps odor out, and I did see that the exit path is in the nosewheel, which must be extended during the "release ops"

Perhaps if you ran the tube in the gear leg fairing and out just below the wheel pant.

I think it is a great idea, but I haven't seen it anywhere but gliders.
 
Captain_John said:
Corrosion comes to mind as well. I would run it as far back in the plane as possible.

If you do this... I won't be helping you grease that tailwheel anytime soon, Dan!

:D CJ

Corrosion is a serious issue. Many glider rudder hinges have had to be replaced because urine got into this ,unlikely seeming, area. Put the exit tube where the urine can not get anywhere on the airplane. The bottom of a gear leg seems about the only likely place.
 
One of my coworkers used to fly F-5s up here in Canada. His squadron had a NATO tasking to be ready to fly across the Atlantic to northern Norway if the cold war ever heated up. They would fly across non-stop, with air-to-air refueling. They would wear a "piddle-pack", which was some sort of long bag strapped to the leg, inside the flight suit, with an external catheter. Maybe these things are available somewhere.

He has a great story about the piddle-packs. Every year they would fly across to Norway for several weeks to train with the Norwegians. On one trip the Canadian pilots challenged the Norwegian fighter squadron that was hosting them to a contest: all the pilots from both squadrons go to the bar, and start drinking beer, matching each other beer for beer. But no one is allowed to go to take a leak. The squadron that can drink the most beer without taking a leak wins.

The Canadians didn't tell the Norwegians that they were going to wear their piddle-packs. They drank beer after beer. The Canadians were comfortable, the Norwegians were in a lot of pain. Suddenly one of the piddle-packs burst, with a flood of used beer, causing a very wet leg on a tan flight suit, and a huge puddle on the floor. Silence for a few seconds, then a stampede of Norwegians racing to the can to take a leak, after they realized they had been had.
 
OK, I'll jump in <g>.

Option one: Stadium Pal http://www.biorelief.com/store/stadiumpal.html
Used by tipsy sports fans everywhere....

unit_photo.gif

Option two (what I use): Buy (2) Snapple ice teas on the way to the airport. Drink it in the plane. When ready to 'drain' the opening on a Snapple bottle is wide enough to....well, you get the idea. Drop in the trash at destination. No corrosion and no modding the plane.

main_snapple_logo.gif

Just one man's o-pee-nion,
d
 
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Dan, I used to have the same problem in a glider. Don't drink much, so don't pee but feel awful, or drink enough and struggle with how to pee. First I used a plastic bag, its doable with some pre planning and standing on the rudder pedals. Then I got a special military bag with dried out sponge in it, and a fancy flap on the neck. Once the pee is inside there's almost no way its coming out - now you have to find some where to store the filled bag. Then we got a piece of 3/4 inch plastic water pipe and epoxyed it into the bottom of the airplane and cut it off flush with the seat pan. A good fillet of thickened epoxy around the bottom of the tube was required. Then we made up a bottle to pee into with 18" of 3/8 plastic tube on the bottom. The tube has to be relatively long to get as much of the pee as possible away from the bottom of the fuselage. The bottle was about 3" diameter by 4 1/2" long with the bottom cut out (take time to ensure there are no sharp edges) and the tube glued into the neck with something like proseal. The bottle/tube was stowed in a zip lock bag after use. Wash everything often, including the bottom of the airplane. It takes some experimentation to figure out the appropriate size of bottle.

The system worked well when peeing at 60 - 80 kt in a reclined position - no idea if it will work at 170kt. Several people flew all of the time with a foot of tube hanging out the bottom of the glider. It was never exactly easy as there isn't much room in a glider cockpit, but it did work with out any spillages. I have put this kind of system in 3 gliders.

Hope this helps, Pete
 
Beware at airshows

Highflight said:
Honey, did you feel a drop?... I don't see any clouds but it sure feels like rain. :eek:
Great now when we're looking up watching the aerobatics we're going to have to wear rain coats and face shields. Don't drink the yellow rain! :D
 
I obtained a "Little Johnny" when I bought a 182 a number of years ago. It's basically a plastic container with a wide opening for relief. I never used it for the longest time--just carried it around in the back of the plane. I finally used it on one trip. I thought things were going OK, until I felt this quite warm sensation on my lap. The **** thing had a crack in it.

I don't remember which was tha harder task--stopping in "mid-stream" or trying to figure out what to do with a leaking bottle of **** at 8,000 feet.

Mark
 
Unless you can come up with an all-plastic empanage I'd say just land and take a pee. You know, take time to ...uh... smell the roses and all that.

I just wouldn't want to run the risk of corrosion in a very hard to treat place. You know how water acts, it will find it's way into the darndest places.
 
As mentioned dan, look to the glider community for a solution. These guys have spent decades perfecting their systems. Its normal for them to stay aloft 6-10 hours sometimes. Their biggest problems are keeping the spray off the tail and rudder hinge corosion :) Some have a tube that they can lower or push down a hole in the fuse...others have a tube run down the tail cone and exit clear of the tail and preferably in a low pressure area so the venturi effect helps pull liquid through. I dont have any experience relieving myself in an airplane, but in other tight areas like a car or tent, I find Gatorade bottles to be the best pee bottles...wide enough mouth and indestructable.
 
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I remember seeing an interview with a race car driver (gran prix type maybe?) and he was explaining how they have some sort of hose that runs down their leg and exits through a hole in the car's floorpan. He went on to explain how they tuck the end of the hose into their shoe when they're out of the car in the pits and such. He finished the story by telling the interviewer how sometimes you forget to take the hose out of your shoe when you get back in the car. The ending is kinda obvious. :D
 
A couple of points learned from gliding:
1. Make sure the outlet is in a lower pressure area than cabin.
2. Beware of operation in freezing conditions. Its hard to keep the whole system warm/flowing.
3. Once you turn on its very hard to turn off if you have a problem with 1 or 2 above!

Good luck!
 
Hmmmm

Hey you formation guys that fly with Dan may not want to let him lead anymore.

Also, what about the female passengers, do they just sit there and explode? If not you now have an exponentially more complex design problem on your hand. I am good for about 3-4 hours but the Mrs., well, she does OK but if she has the option will not pass up a restroom. I think I will just stick with the short flights and take the time to meet some additional nice people. It may take a little longer to get there, but that just means more flying.

Roberta, what are your thoughts on this?
 
Just refill that water bottle you just emptied!! :D Be sure to ask the formation to go to a *very* large route formation first...
 
I fly three hours, 3.5 max. My bladder will easily sustain that. Lady Jane adapter :eek: !!! Never :D :D !!! Fill up the plane, empty out the pilot. That's my strategy. :)

Roberta
 
Dan,

Two things, be careful not to arrange your exit port so it creates pressure, thus blowing all the **** back into the plane and all over your. Second, you don't want to create much of a suction as I suspect that might be painful if you use the condom adapter.

This reminds me of a trip a buddy and fellow pilot took right after I got my PPL in a Skyhawk. When we were loading the plane Jim tossed in an empty 1 gallon milk jug to be used for the type of relief operation Dan is asking about.

Somewhere over upstate New York Jim said it was time to use the Emergency Relief Equipment and climbed into the back seat. After trimming the 172 and getting things leveled out he started to use "The Equipment" Shortly thereafter I start to hear, "$#^! $#^@# !#@$*!" from the back seat.

I turn around to look and Jim is holding up the jug which had a pin hole in it and it was leaking all over him and the plane.

We slowed the 172 down, opened the window and tossed it out into some farm field.
 
Relief tubes in sailplanes

I have a couple thousand hours in sailplanes and use a relief tube on every flight. I fly a lot in regional and natinal competitions where our flights are from three to five hours long. What we have learned from long hours in the cockpit is that continuous hydration and relief are necessary to keep your electrolytes in balance, and that failure to do so can have an negative effect on the way you feel and think at the end of a flight. And that's not a good time to be making bad decisions. A relief system is seen as a matter of safety.

A problem with using a relief system in a sailplane is that modern high-performance gliders require one hand on the stick at all times to keep it going where you want. So, the relief system of choice is a completely hands-off device consisting of an external male catheter like one of these: http://www.mentorcorp.com/bladder-control/incontinence-male/MEC-ClearAdv.htm. The catheter usually is connected with a barbed tubing connector to a length of latex surgical tubing that comes up through the floor pan just aft of the stick. Below the floor pan, the tubing usually runs aft to an exit in the gear well just behind the cockpit. You get in, unzip, hook up, and fly the whole flight "read to go".

However, the external catheter probably isn't necessary in an RV, especially with an autopilot. I think a modest sized open-mouthed vessel of some sort with a tubing outlet that you can leave hooked up to the relief tube would be better. Perhaps a plastic funnel like this would work: http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...splastic&category_name=25425&product_id=18470 The funnel could be rinsed with fresh water after use, and capped off with its lid. I think that would keep things clean and odor free in the cockpit.

An important variable is how and where the relief tube exits the fuselage. Many pilots have had the experience of finding rust in the tail wheel and/or lower rudder hinge from a relief tube opening that exited flush with the outside of the fuselage. Some experimentation was done with dyed water that showed it was necessary to locate the relief tube exit point well away from the fuselage to prevent the stream of fluid from attaching to the fuselage and wetting everything downstream of that point. One effective method that has been widely adopted is to attach the relief tube to the rear lower corner of one gear door, which puts it four to five inched away from the fuselage when the doors are open. You have to lower the gear when using the relief system, but this keeps fluid off of the fuselage. Another scheme I have heard of, but never seen, is a lance made from tubing that can be lowered into the air stream through a hole in the bottom of the fuselage for use, and retracted after.

I haven't given a lot of thought yet to locating a relief tube exit on an RV-7, and I'm several months away from having a fuselage to work with myself. I don't think you would want to run the tube forward to go down the gear leg, and I think you need to keep the tubing run short and route it so that it will drain empty after each use. Perhaps a lance made from a piece of stainless tubing would be a workable solution for an RV. Ideally, you need a way to close off the exit port when not in use. Perhaps a ball valve could be used on the exit port. You would extract the lance and close the ball valve when not in use.

In short, I think I would try a Clean Funnel, a length of latex surgical tubing, and a stainless steel tubing lance long enough that it could be inserted through a hole in the bottom of the fuselage and extended into the air stream. The tubing would, of course, have to be strong enough to withstand aerodynamic loads at cruise speeds.
 
Oh yeah, on the site I listed, scroll down to near the end - you will see a pair of urinals, male and female.
Carl
 
This story has been around our office a few times but it's true... one of the guys in the office flies sailplanes a lot. Evidentally on one flight relief was needed but none was to be found in the airplane. So he went. Then he proceeded to call his wife on the radio on what he thought was a private frequency. (He was calling for her to bring a new pair of shorts to the glider port).

What he didn't realize was... he was broadcasting on the UNICOM frequency!

Almost makes for one of those "priceless" mastercard type of commercials.

 
dan said:
Ditto, but I don't want to watch the hydration. I want to hydrate like crazy when I'm up at umpteen thou doing 2200+ miles on a summer day. Drink, pee, drink, pee...sniff O2 the whole time, and I'm fresh as a daisy when I arrive. Need that relief.
Evening Dan,

Looks like some good ideas came from the group. Whatever method you choose don't forget to install a placard on the devise to remind you to turn off that cockpit camera...! ;-)

We still want to be able to watch more of your great videos. :D
 
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Dan,

I too enjoy the long haul trips. My 8 is not done, but I have been thinking about this problem for years. In my Mooney, I just use zip lock bags inside of a coffee can. The can makes the bag easier to handle, and once full, I just zip em closed. Oh, and yes, I double them up just in case. At altitude, I drink as much water as I want to, and I agree, I stay awake easier and my head is clearer.

In the Mooney, I have to scoot forward on the seat, but it's doable-no accidents so far. My poor wife tried that danged Lady Jane thing and it was a disaster, poor kid. When we fly as a family, well the legs are decidedly shorter.

But, I digress: In the -8, the seat is reclined more, and I'm thinking that a tube setup is in order.

Recently, sport Aviation ran an article (June 2006) about a guy setting a coast to coast record in his Glasair. He used a tube that ran to a large bag in the rear that had the urine hardening crystals in it. That's close, but what about the tube?

At an airshow one year, I asked all the vendors about a relief tube setup, and no one except for a military surplus dealer had anything. The military guy pulled out a black plastic funnel that had a red trigger button that opened a valve at the bottom. He said that military transports have some sort of venturi out in the breeze that applies suction to the hose. When the button in the funnel is pushed, the suction then pulls the fluid down the tubing, eliminating the possibility of spillage.

A funnel still requires that the user be able to position it in a somewhat vertical attitude.

I thought that if I could get some polyurethane tubing out the trailing edge of the wheelpants, perhaps it would stay off the airframe and provide enough low pressure. Or, how about a tube thru the tail, out past the tailwheel? Actually, I think that routing the tubing is fairly easy, we still need the fluid gathering device. So far, the external catheter looks the most fool proof.

Next time I have the seats back in the fuse, I'll re-evaluate the funnel idea.

Art

....oh, I did not buy the surplus relief funnel, it was pretty grotty looking, I also thought I'd get something better somewhere.
 
external relief system

Click on the image to read a short article with a couple of pictures of a RV4 relief system:

 
Ventur pic

Mickey,

Thanks for the pics. The view of the venturi appears as though the venturi and the tubing outlet is immediately downstream of the cowl exit, which will be hot air in any wx condition. Nice idea, keeps any water in the tube from freezing, I would guess...

Art
 
What about porting the stainless tube into the engine exhaust at a 45 degree angle. The exhaust would create the nessesary suction to pull out the fluid and then evaporate any fluid thus preventing the corrosion/contamination problem. By using a valve of some sort any carbon monoxide problems should be avoided. Brian
 
Had my "gatorade" bottle ready for use in the -4......only it was in my backpack strapped in the rearseat and I just couldn't reach it no matter how hard I tried.......Had to unbuckle and crawl into the backseat to get it.......aerobatics anyone....ahhhhhhh!! good for a few more hours...... Then hand bottle to my wife when I landed and get this "oh you didn't finish your apple jui.. :eek: ....oh your're such a j**k"..... :mad:....... :D

seriously though I wouldn't cut/drill any more holes in the RV or hang anything else out there on that beautiful belly.......better to curtail the fancy beverages for a while.....water only...and remember to put "the bottle" closer to the tap....
 
Dan,

I can't recall if you've already got a smoke system. If not, I think I see a way to kill two birds with one stone here.
 
Well, yesterday I used one Gatorade bottle and two Travel John packs. I also employed the "hold it you wuss, it's just 45 minutes to go" tactic, which I have to admit is the hardest. I still prefer the Travel John overall. You can "flex" the mouth open...not gonna beat my chest and lie and say that I need that (ahem), but it does give the most flexibility for angle of the dangle (don't suppose VAF will censor that!).

The local surgical supply place that does cheap O2 fills ($10 / 13cu-ft) also sells Travel John packs pretty cheap...$6/box.

I did order a free sampler pack of external catheters via the web, though. I gave my wife adequate warning...um, honey, when a pack of catheters comes in the mail while I'm out of town, don't be surprised, umkay? She laughed.

At this point I'm thinking that in my particular plane, I may run some tubing down through the seat pan (where some folks use a 5th point), back along the bottom of the fuselage, out the tailcone, tie-wrapped/RTV'd to the tail spring, extending out an inch or two past the tailwheel pivot. That'll mitigate the corrosion issues. I would potentially have to "flush" the system after use, but with positive stopping quick disconnects (thanks for the links folks) that shouldn't be a big deal. Disconnect my johnson tube, connect one with a funnel, pour some water in.

We'll see. For now the Travel John is where it's at. Thanks again for all the info.
 
Dan, is the tailwheel above the level of, ur, well, the dangle, during flight? You may have a problem there. Also, there is a surprising amount of resistance to flow through a tube of the length you'll need, something around 12 feet, unless it is a large ID tube (1/2" probably?).

How about going forward and down the gear leg, then out the aft most end of the wheel fairing? I've given that serious consideration, although on my trike it would be a little easier.
 
AlexPeterson said:
Dan, is the tailwheel above the level of, ur, well, the dangle, during flight? You may have a problem there.
Good point!

How about going forward and down the gear leg, then out the aft most end of the wheel fairing? I've given that serious consideration, although on my trike it would be a little easier.
Sounds ideal...shoulda woulda coulda run that tubing before doing my gear leg fairings and filling 'em with foam.
 
I studied long and hard the feasability of a relief tube when I built my Rocket. Being a little older means the urge hits you a little more often. Plus, it seems that the slight vibration of the airframe just shakes the liquid out of me that much faster.

I could not come up with a "good" way of doing it without cutting holes, running long, large tubes, creating potential external messes, and causing corrosion. In the end, I just settled on a large Gatorade bottle, which always flies with me, and as a backup, a very large Ziploc bag. It's amazing how big they make these things now.

One thing that makes my option viable is the installation of an A/P. I didn't have one in my RV-6 and it was very tricky holding the stick with my knees and trying to angle the dangle so I didn't get wet. I wasn't always successful. With "George" flying the airplane, using the bottle is easy.

So I won't say that it can't be done, but it just seems to me that the extra complexity of tubes, etc is just not worth it. To each their own though. I'd like to see some slick installations, if there are any out there.
 
gettin' ready to be a cropduster!

dan said:
Sounds ideal...shoulda woulda coulda run that tubing before doing my gear leg fairings and filling 'em with foam.
I think the hardest part of this little task is going to be figuring out how to explain it to the folks who tour my shop! Normally, I like to demonstrate the working parts of the plane...

So do most folks agree that a tube running, as suggested by Alex, along the brake line and exiting the rear of the wheel fairing will be effective, i.e. will draw fluid out of the line without making the hstab look freshly alodined? What material and [relief tube] size do folks think will work - nylon? polyethylene? (I looked, but US Plastics' compatibility chart doesn't list the material of interest...) If there's reduced pressure at the aft end of the line, I'm thinking 3/8" tube - your thoughts? Any other caveats you can think of?
 
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