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VFR on top

H

h&jeuropa

Well Known Member
I checked weather today and my destination was forecast to be VFR. I departed VFR and climbed above a scattered to broken cloud deck. Enroute the ATIS at the destination was overcast but it was 1 1/2 hour old and a nearby airport was reporting scattered clouds. On arrival the overcast was correct. I contacted approach and descended thru the clouds but I didn't file IFR or request a IFR clearance and the controller told me to remain in VFR conditions which I couldn't do.

My question is how should one handle this situation?
 
h&jeuropa said:
I checked weather today and my destination was forecast to be VFR. I departed VFR and climbed above a scattered to broken cloud deck. Enroute the ATIS at the destination was overcast but it was 1 1/2 hour old and a nearby airport was reporting scattered clouds. On arrival the overcast was correct. I contacted approach and descended thru the clouds but I didn't file IFR or request a IFR clearance and the controller told me to remain in VFR conditions which I couldn't do.

My question is how should one handle this situation?
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Sorry to be blunt, but you obviously broke the rule and we get to break the rule only that many times until it catches up with us.

There are lots of options, (i.e filing/requesting IFR, special VFR, alternate airport, etc)
 
Good grief. The only thing you did right was to contact approach, so the controller presumably would keep you from killing an innocent pilot who was ifr and legitimately in the clouds.
1. Talk to flight watch (122.0) enroute to keep abreast of the wx.
2. Go to an alternate, or go home.
3. Get an instrument rating.

The risks of VFR OVER the top ("vfr on top" is a form of ifr clearance) for a vfr pilot should now be all too clear. If the clouds below you start to close up, you continue on at your risk.

Edit: okay, I looked you up on the faa database and it says you are instrument rated. Why didn't you just ask for an ifr approach clearance?
 
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Dumb question from a VFR pilot.

If your alternate nearby air port was broken scattered, why not just head there, descend when safe to do so and then fly under the overcast to your destination?

Or did I misunderstand the weather?

Regards
 
h&jeuropa said:
I checked weather today and my destination was forecast to be VFR. I departed VFR and climbed above a scattered to broken cloud deck. Enroute the ATIS at the destination was overcast but it was 1 1/2 hour old and a nearby airport was reporting scattered clouds. On arrival the overcast was correct. I contacted approach and descended thru the clouds but I didn't file IFR or request a IFR clearance and the controller told me to remain in VFR conditions which I couldn't do.

My question is how should one handle this situation?
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Straight talk…you asked for it, by virtue of your straight talk in the OP.

As has been said...NASA form now…but you've already put it in writing in a public forum, so ya takes your chances. However, that is after the fact damage control…so how do you do better?

1. Better planning. How long before you departed did you check the weather? Was the forecast for good VFR all day, deteriorating weather, or with some TEMPO conditions of less than VFR? Might the forecast have changed between leaving home and getting to the airport and blasting off?

2. Better enroute decision making. How long was the flight? You said the ATIS was an hour and a half old…but they typically update it on the hour. Or were you looking at severely dated XM Wx? If that was the case, then call Flight Watch or FSS if Wx ahead is looking more and more iffy. If it was VFR when you departed, and the ATIS was that old, how long were you flying over an increasingly cloudy sky? Don't fall into the trap of thinking, "well they said it would be VFR, I'm sure the clouds will break up soon". Murphy likes clouds!

3. Honesty with yourself and ATC (I know, I know, that sometimes feels like being honest with the IRS, but sometimes ATC really can help! ;)).

ATC: "Maintain VFR"
You: "Unable"
ATC: "State your intentions and your request"
You: "IFR to XXX"
ATC: Advise when ready to copy clearance"

You get the gist.

4. Learn from this…to avoid the big ol' knot in your gut and lump in your throat that were probably there as you descended through the clouds. It usually gets darker just before you break out of the bottom, doesn't it…those knots and lumps get bigger then, eh.

5. And honestly, if you have an instrument ticket, and are asking the above question, go get some refresher or follow-on training. It'll make you a better pilot, or more confident in using the rating to avoid these situations.

Gutsy post…take the punches on the chin to help you get better…most of us have taken similar punches along the way for our stupid pilot tricks. ;)

Cheers,
Bob
 
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eddieseve said:
Dumb question from a VFR pilot.

If your alternate nearby air port was broken scattered, why not just head there, descend when safe to do so and then fly under the overcast to your destination?

Or did I misunderstand the weather?

Regards
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Eddy,

No dumb questions! He said he didn't file IFR, so there would have been no alternate filed. Even with an IFR flight plan, some weather conditions at the destination don't require an alternate either, though its good to plan outs. His VFR planning may or may not have included an alternate. Also, there can be a marked difference between scattered and broken (the wx mentioned in your question), and safely flying under an overcast depends greatly on the height of the overcast, and the surrounding terrain and obstacles, and we don't have any info on that in this situation. Hope that adds value!

Cheers,
Bob
 
If you really do have an instrument rating, then I am concerned about your knowledge base. But, even without that instrument rating, unless you were fuel critical or without engine power and absolutely had no other choice other than to violate the rules and descend into IMC, then you broke the rule of what should be basic VFR/IFR knowledge that you learn in perhaps your very first flying lesson.

Having said that, however, I am sure you are not alone amongst the pilots on the forum in breaking this particular rule.
 
Focus On Decision Making

1. Instrument rated, but not instrument current or qualified (suggested by original posting/questions). This needs to be recognized.
2. Not much attention paid to weather - assuming it will get better?
3. Conscious decision to enter IMC without clearance.
4. Fuel limited? Is that why there was no attempt to seek out or maintain VFR?
5. Any thought about declaring an emergency?
6. Preflight planning did not include alternatives (this is very basic, particularly for VFR flight planning).

Advice to original poster:
Contact a flight instructor.
Go back to basics - tell the instructor you need help with ADM. An experienced instructor should be able to take you thru many scenarios to help sharpen your decision making. This is not something you should try to do on your own - even professional golfers have coaches.
Finally, debrief yourself after each flight. Ask yourself if you would have made the same decisions with other family members sitting beside you.
We all make mistakes. Hopefully, we survive the really bad ones and learn from them. You've gotten good advice from many of the above posters. Really glad to see you writing about your experience rather than everyone else reading about it in a newspaper.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
You said that it was VFR at your destination, but this does not mean it wasn't already overcast.

As was mentioned, asking for an IFR clearance to descend or go somewhere else are your only legal options. Special VFR gives you tighter cloud clearances, but it doesn't let you descend into an overcast. Personally, I file IFR just about everywhere I go over 50nm. Then I don't end up in these situations. If ATC wants to send me somewhere I don't want to go en route, and the conditions are good enough, I just cancel and go VFR. It's much easier to do this than to go VFR and get a clearance later. Sometimes ATC will give it to you and sometimes they'll send you to FSS. Either way it's a hassle due to bad planning.

For those out there reading who don't have an IFR ticket, please get one. The statement, "a VFR pilot is only half a pilot" is not too far off. A VFR pilot who travels will often find himself either scud running (dangerous) or getting stuck on top (dangerous and illegal if you descend through it any way).

I think the only legal way to descend through an overcast VFR is by declaring an emergency.
 
Just a point of contention, but in our part of the world, the concept, the rule and the notion of VFR ON TOP is strictly an IFR procedure.

We adopted this from the greatest GA country on earth, so I would assume that the rules we adopted were as per those in the USA.

If you fly a VFR flight there is truly no such thing as VFR ON TOP. Unless you meet the criteria for VFR flight?..which involves being able to navigate by visual ground reference to determine your position. Thus hours on end above anything more than SCT (4/8ths) is not VFR flight.

So I think by what I read the OP was in strife long before the cloud busting.

I have seen many posts on here over the years about light IFR and all this sort of thing, and I fear many do not respect that IFR is IFR. Nothing else. IMC and VMC may have gradients but the rules do not. And for good reason as has been shown here.

Folks, if there is one way to get CASA or FAA or CAA's of the world to ban ABE's from IFR ops, then this is a good start.

Aspire to be professional and not treat flight planning so disrespectfully for the rules, either VFR or IFR.

Glad you made it out unsafely, the alternative was worse. :eek:
 
RV10inOz said:
Just a point of contention, but in our part of the world, the concept, the rule and the notion of VFR ON TOP is strictly an IFR procedure.

We adopted this from the greatest GA country on earth, so I would assume that the rules we adopted were as per those in the USA.

If you fly a VFR flight there is truly no such thing as VFR ON TOP. Unless you meet the criteria for VFR flight?..which involves being able to navigate by visual ground reference to determine your position. Thus hours on end above anything more than SCT (4/8ths) is not VFR flight.

So I think by what I read the OP was in strife long before the cloud busting.
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I believe our rules allow reference to the horizon, not just the ground. As I think was already mentioned, VFR ON TOP is an IFR situation. VFR OVER THE TOP is for VFR. The OP was obviously the former, because the latter requires access to the ground with appropriate cloud clearances.

The truth be told, many of us have probably done similar to what the OP did or worse, but (at least many of us) we have learned from that and try hard to avoid those situations.
 
Jesse said:
Personally, I file IFR just about everywhere I go over 50nm. Then I don't end up in these situations. If ATC wants to send me somewhere I don't want to go en route, and the conditions are good enough, I just cancel and go VFR. It's much easier to do this than to go VFR and get a clearance later.
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This is an excellent tactic while traveling CC to manage the OP's scenario.
 
First off, I would suggest you do not admit to doing such things on the internet
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Excellent advice!

Although I am rated IFR, I cannot by any stretch keep current and simply being current is just not enough in my book to be safe. So all my flying is strictly VFR
and sometimes VFR on top with visual on an on obstructed horizon.
This happens quite a lot along the coast where during summertime a layer of marine fog covers portions of the coastline and parts of the inland.
At certain times of the year the entire central valley can be covered in fog up to about 2000 feet and stretch 100 miles accros from the coastal range to the foothills of the Sierras. Crystal clear weather for the rest of California and an easy decision to cross over the top in VFR. No need to complicate thing with new rules.

The very best tool that has come along to avoid the situation the OP found himself in is ADS-B weather. Get it and you know what I am talking about!
 
So what is it officially called when you have a clear destination but complete cloud cover over a portion of the route. I have always thought it was "VFR on top", and legal if you maintain the correct cloud clearance.

Not the best situation to be in if you have an emergency, but sometimes the only way to get somewhere.

(Just signed up for IFR ground school yesterday at the EAA hanger on 7S5. Spots still available, starts soon, $300 for the class and $150 for books. Once a week.)
 
Clouds

" For those out there reading who don't have an IFR ticket, please get one. The statement, "a VFR pilot is only half a pilot" is not too far off. A VFR pilot who travels will often find himself either scud running (dangerous) or getting stuck on top (dangerous and illegal if you descend through it any way"

Way off topic, but not going to get an IFR. There is another safer option for me. Dont go if it is at all edgy. I'll spend the time studying the weather to make better decisions.

If I were located in a flatter part of the country, or flew there often, had a more compelling need to fly, and could practice often, I would probably get an IFR ticket. As it is, my missions almost always involve flying over the mountains and the clouds over high mountains have rocks, ice, and nasty turbulence, and major up and downdrafts in them. Safely clear of clouds is the only way I will fly. As a husband, father, son, and grandfather, not even going to tempt myself with the capability a ticket would provide. If I spent the money and time to get it and to stay current, I know there would be tremendous pressure to use it. And I know that in my situation there is no way I could possibly maintain the skills necessary to actually do it safely. The accident reports are full of evidence supporting that.

I get to fly 30 or so times a year, most of those cross country and in last 10 years have not had a close call with clouds. That is not a matter of chance, but a matter of choice.

Not arguing the value of an IFR ticket, just pointing out that there should not be universal rules about what makes us qualified to fly.
 
Jesse said:
...

For those out there reading who don't have an IFR ticket, please get one. The statement, "a VFR pilot is only half a pilot" is not too far off. ...
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That is blatantly insulting to those of us that choose to not incur the costs of obtaining an IFR rating, or the costs of acquiring and operating IFR compliant aircraft.

That is along the same lines as claiming that only tailwheel pilots are "real" pilots...

Or any number of stereotypical comments that denigrate a group of people that make an informed choice that suits their particular needs and circumstances.

Sorry, as a VFR pilot since 1967 that has no interest in IFR, I take offense to the implication that I am less of a pilot than someone else just because I don't happen to have an IFR ticket.

Respectfully,
 
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ccsmith51 said:
That is blatantly insulting to those of us that choose to not go incur the costs of obtaining an IFR rating, or the costs of acquiring and operating IFR compliant aircraft.

That is along the same lines as claiming that only tailwheel pilots are "real" pilots...

Or any of a number of stereotypical comments that denigrate a group of people that make an informed choice that suits their particular needs and circumstances.

Sorry, as a VFR pilot since 1967 that has no interest in IFR, I take offense to the implication that I am less of a pilot than someone else just because I don't happen to have an IFR ticket.

Respectfully,
Click to expand...

Well said. Many non-pro IFR pilots are long out of currency and can hurt themselves and others.
 
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ccsmith51 said:
That is blatantly insulting to those of us that choose to not go incur the costs of obtaining an IFR rating, or the costs of acquiring and operating IFR compliant aircraft.

That is along the same lines as claiming that only tailwheel pilots are "real" pilots...

Or any of a number of stereotypical comments that denigrate a group of people that make an informed choice that suits their particular needs and circumstances.

Sorry, as a VFR pilot since 1967 that has no interest in IFR, I take offense to the implication that I am less of a pilot than someone else just because I don't happen to have an IFR ticket.

Respectfully,
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Yep, but then things do change sometimes.

After 43 years, I now find it is time to get the IFR---------because I now have a plane that, IMHO, "Justifies" the rating.

The higher, faster, and farther abilities of the RV 10 can sometimes only be utilized if you can go IFR. Way different than flying the old Stinson was.
 
I fly lots of VFR and only VFR and only during daylight. Here's how I handle it.

1. Never go VFR on top. Not ever. Unless I can see the ground on the far side.

2. If the forecast doesn't include solid VFR underneath, I can't go to that destination.

3. If I'm under broken, don't go on top unless it's getting more open and the forecast is for improvement.

4. If I'm on top of broken, keep an eye out for signs that it's going solid. Well before that, duck under.

5. If I'm on top of broken, keep an eye out how high the bottoms are. A hole is no good if there' no way out from it underneath.

6. Have enough fuel to allow plenty of options. Fuel is cheap. Options are priceless.

7. Have enough daylight to allow plenty of options.

8. Carry enough charts (electronic or paper, doesn't matter) and airport information, so that I can determine alternates.

Dave
 
Mike S said:
Yep, but then things do change sometimes.

The higher, faster, and farther abilities of the RV 10 can sometimes only be utilized if you can go IFR. Way different than flying the old Stinson was.
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Before I was IFR rated, I ended up spending the night at an airport while an RV-10 showed up, refueled, filed IFR, then flew the last leg home. That night, I knew if I had the IFR rating, I would have spent the night in my own bed. May have only been 20-minues in actual IFR for a 2-hour flight.
 
I believe that each rating or endorsement that one adds to the pilots license does serve to improve one's piloting skills. I know it's worked that way for me.

high performance
complex
instrument
seaplane
commercial

others that would also help (but I have not yet pursued):

glider
multi
CFI
CFII
ATP

I really think they're all worthwhile, and each of them makes us a little bit better...
 
I plan to get my IFR rating once I resume flying in an RV myself. Not because I think or plan to fly IFR, but I want to mitigate risks of flying by way of increasing my own skills and awaremess as a pilot.

Same to be said for upset attitude training, I don't think anyone does that and then puts themself in that position on purpose, but knowing if you get in that situation you have some skills in your toolbox to help return you safely home.

With that said when I do get my IFR, I wouldn't mind staying current and the occasion you need to use it, the option exists. With everything in flying everyone has their own personal limits.
 
From my perspective, it's hard to have absolute rules - like, never fly VFR on top. It often might not seem the best choice, but flying is by its nature an exercise in risk management. Sometimes, VFR on top, particularly if someone has an instrument rating, is a perfectly sensible approach. Depends on the day, the mission, the aircraft capabilities and the pilot's capabilities.

The advice of filing the NASA form is good, but bear in mind that this program is intended to provide relief when the potential violation was unintentional. If your local FSDO were to call you on this, they could contend the immunity is not available to you under the circumstances. I imagine you'd eventually win the point, but it might not be fun. (Your chances of prevailing can be diminished by the choice of words in a forum message.)

So, how to handle it - if the nearby airport is not overcast, go in that direction and descend until you break out and then turn around. If the nearby airport is not open and it was forecast to be, then keep in mind that the "E" word is your ultimate get out of jail free play. Once you declare, you can pretty much do just about anything - you just have to prepared to respond about the circumstances if asked. Not necessarily saying that it was called for here, but

...I contacted approach and descended thru the clouds but I didn't file IFR or request a IFR clearance [the reasons are unclear to me] and the controller told me to remain in VFR conditions which I couldn't do. [for which the answer should have been simply, "unable"] ...
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You could have asked for IFR to descend through a layer and told the controller you'd cancel upon breaking out. If the controller nevertheless said to remain VFR, you could give him one last shot by asking if you needed to "declare." If you didn't get a clearance or a reasonable expectation of when you could expect one, then you could just declare and announce that you were descending. ATC and the FSDO might not be thrilled, but I don't think there's any enforcement that could actually be initiated against you. And, in such a case, the tape is your friend.

FWIW - Dan
 
For our Aussie friends: Here in the US it is legal to fly under VFR even when the ground is not in sight. This is not true in some other countries, and here in the US is not allowed for student pilots.
In controlled airspace you need to be at least 1000' above the clouds, to give see and avoid a chance to work for climbing ifr aircraft.
The proper FAA term for this is "VFR over the top". Although widely misused, "VFR on top" is a form of ifr clearance.
 
The article that DanH posted is an excellent read. (post 22) If it seems a bit conservative, he provides excellent reasoning for that conservatism. I learned some additional things to consider before going on a long VFR over the top.

Suggest reading it if you have doubts or questions.
 
VFR over the top is legal in Canada although it does require a rating. Extra instrument time, some extra equipment, (for example a heated pitot), are required. There are also some conditions that apply. The airport at the destination must be forecast VFR at the time of arrival and for some amount of extra time as well, I forget the exact details.
I have flown VFR over the top on many occasions, when the weather conditions were clear at both ends and I always had a way out. I feel that it is much safer to be up on top, in clear skies then to be flying along under a low VFR layer with less then ideal visibility.
Three years ago I was stuck in Kansas City for three days and decided at that time that I would get my IFR ticket.
After three seasons of IFR flying I have had very few IMC flights but the ones I had allowed me to safely complete a flight. I really like cross country IFR flight in VFR conditions as the controllers hold your hand the whole way.
On two occasions, to test the system, I was on flight following and encountered some cloud on my route that looked like good practice IFR conditions. I called centre and asked for a IFR clearance to do an approach to my destination. As I was already in the system the clearance came quickly with no questions asked.
I have had 28 years of VFR only flight and have travelled coast to coast, always watching the weather.
The past three years of IFR have not really modified my personal minimums that much but it has given me many more options for travel and taken quite a bit of the worry out of marginal VFR conditions.
For the OP, I am sure that you have learned some lessons from this thread, and you will likely do a better job with your weather briefing in the future. Always give your self a place to go, even if it means going back to where you started.
 
Arlen said:
I believe that each rating or endorsement that one adds to the pilots license does serve to improve one's piloting skills. I know it's worked that way for me.

high performance
complex
instrument
seaplane
commercial

others that would also help (but I have not yet pursued):

glider
multi
CFI
CFII
ATP

I really think they're all worthwhile, and each of them makes us a little bit better...
Click to expand...


I agree that all the ratings tend to make one a better overall pilot.

What I haven't seen mentioned is this:

There's a huge gulf between being IFR current (FAR requirements) and being proficient (having flown enough actual to be comfortable with your skills)

Good discussion all around.
 
Tom Martin said:
VFR over the top is legal in Canada although it does require a rating. Extra instrument time, some extra equipment, (for example a heated pitot), are required. There are also some conditions that apply. The airport at the destination must be forecast VFR at the time of arrival and for some amount of extra time as well, I forget the exact details.
Click to expand...

Actually Australia's regs for VFR "over the top" (or on top of more than SCT and with no ref to ground features for nav) are almost identical....

Cheers
 
For those offended by my quote, it is something I have heard more than once. It does not mean you're not as good of a pilot, but, as was described by RV6_flyer, you can only fly half of the time. In the case of the OP, without an IFR ticket, he couldn't have made his destination legally, even if he would have filed. So, for that trip, he was not a legal pilot without an IFR ticket. The fact that he has an IFR ticket means that he could have done it legally, but chose not to. As David Paule described, he is VFR and has a set of personal rules to work with. Depending on where he lives, there are likely a lot of times that he can't go where he would go if the weather was better.

In short, I did not mean to offend anybody, but I think the quote makes a valid point.
 
Thanks Bob

That makes sense, thanks for your feedback

Cheers

rvmills said:
Eddy,

No dumb questions! He said he didn't file IFR, so there would have been no alternate filed. Even with an IFR flight plan, some weather conditions at the destination don't require an alternate either, though its good to plan outs. His VFR planning may or may not have included an alternate. Also, there can be a marked difference between scattered and broken (the wx mentioned in your question), and safely flying under an overcast depends greatly on the height of the overcast, and the surrounding terrain and obstacles, and we don't have any info on that in this situation. Hope that adds value!

Cheers,
Bob
Click to expand...
 
eddieseve said:
Thanks Bob

That makes sense, thanks for your feedback

Cheers
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You bet Eddy.

Hey for that pesky, sometimes confusing VFR On Top, versus VFR Over the Top…

Here's what the Pilot to Controller Glossary says:
VFR‐ON‐TOP- ATC authorization for an IFR aircraft to operate in VFR conditions at any appropriate VFR altitude (as specified in 14 CFR and as restricted by ATC). A pilot receiving this authorization must comply with the VFR visibility, distance from cloud criteria, and the minimum IFR altitudes specified in 14 CFR Part 91. The use of this term does not relieve controllers of their responsibility to separate aircraft in Class B and Class C airspace or TRSAs as required by FAAO JO 7110.65.

Pilot-friendly translation and real-world use: You are on an IFR Flight Plan, at an IFR altitude. You may have speed, altitude or routing restrictions that you want to alleviate. You are in good VFR conditions, above clouds, or between layers…actually you could be in CAVU conditions…no clouds, but on an IFR flight plan you intend to remain on. You request VFR-on-Top. If ATC clears you for it, you operate at a VFR Altitude, IFR separation is somewhat relieved for the controller, and you typically can fly direct, and at the speed of your choice (ATC may impose restrictions in their VFR-On-Top Clearance to you). It really is more of a separation relief and shortcut producing method than a cloud avoidance tactic in this type of scenario. A Metroliner Pilot once used this tactic to try to scoot by me (in a Jetstream) to get to LAX from San Diego first. He failed miserably…went too high (17.5)…and that little Jetstream was the fastest one we had! :D

Another use is to climb through IFR/IMC conditions to VFR-On-Top. You have IFR separation in the IMC climb portion, and then move to the VFR separation and VFR Altitude phase when on top, and have reported in VMC conditions. This method often is used by a flight that wants to eventually cancel IFR and proceed VFR, once past the IMC conditions…for example taking off from the cloudy coast and flying to the CAVU desert.

Interestingly VFR Over the Top is not in the Pilot To Controller Glossary. It appears to be more of a description of conditions of flight, versus any kind of clearance. Sounds like there are restrictions or regs in some countries about requirements to operate in those conditions.

Seems its also a matter of judgment. As Dan H said, the risks of flying with no visual contact with the ground don't care what kind of flight plan you are on. Gotta ask...Do I have the equipment, training and currency to get down safely, if the "pilot cooling fan" up front stops turning, or if I get to where I'm going and the ground is still MIA? Do I have the SA on what's below that white carpet to allow a safe descent? When faced with nuttin' but clouds ahead and below as far as the eye can see, no IFR ticket or no IFR airplane, Harry Callahan said it best: "You gotta ask yourself…do I feel lucky?" Ask that before terra firma disappears!

Cheers,
Bob
 
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IFr for VFR

I have to chime in here. I am a VFR pilot and was pursuing my IFR rating so I could get in and out of the LA basin with the June Gloom. I never finished, and will not fly if there is a chance of IFR.

But, the IFR training made a much better pilot. For those who have no interest in IFR, I urge you to just get some IFR instruction; it did indeed make me a better pilot.

I did not know what I didn't know, until I took some instruction. JMHO
 
The question isn't if taking IFR training will make you a better pilot, of course many hours of study and instruction will make you a better pilot.

The question is if doing the same number of hours studying and flight instruction on basic pilot skills as you would getting your IFR ticket, would that make you a better pilot too. Again, of course it will.

Study for an IFR ticket or basic flight skills will make you a better pilot. I have no plans to fly IFR at any time. I won't even fly at night. Those are my limits. For me and many other pilots, pilot skills instruction will make me a better pilot than learning how to file a flight plan.

I am in no way minimizing the value of an IFR rating. If anyone has any plans to fly where there might be clouds or at night, I might suggest you are crazy not having IFR training. The argument on who is a better pilot is a joke.

The pilot who is trained to not fly past their own personal limits is the better pilot.
 
And, it depends on what kind of flying you plan on doing.

While I enjoy flying VFR right here in Central Florida, the majority of my hours are cross country. (I flew to the 4 corners of the USA last month.... >8000 miles in 47 hours, and 6 of those hours were IMC).

When you need to cover a few hundred miles, there are many days where the climb to cruise altitude or part of the en route course or the descent or approach into the destination involve some IMC.....and just couldn't happen if VFR.

For me (and only speaking for me), I couldn't do much of the flying I do without the instrument rating.

But, many pilots don't do the type of flying that I do. We each do it our own way, doing what we like to do...
 
IFR because of RV

Lots of good perspectives and advice as usual. I usually avoid posting opinions on religious topics, but what the heck. Here's my take:

I decided to get an instrument rating BECAUSE I chose to own an RV. To me, the instrument rating lets you get a lot more value out of these aircraft because they're so darn capable. It simply doesn't take too long at 160+ kts to encounter weather and have to make educated decisions about it. I felt I could make the best decisions by understanding the system, knowing how to use it, and having the option to use it when warranted.

Compared to the investment I have in my RV, the cost of the IFR ticket wasn't insurmountable. And since I fly regularly, the incremental cost of maintaining IFR proficiency doesn't break the bank, either.

In my case, the instrument ticket really did make me a better pilot, and the education has paid great dividends not only in flying in the soup, but in my VFR flying as well. I really do get a lot more value/fun/bang-for-the-buck out of my RV as an instrument-rated pilot.

M
 
IFR and CC's

I'm rated but only have about 25 hrs actual IMC in the log book and most of that was before GPS. I got my proficiency back a few months ago, and the plane equipped for mild IFR. On my last two long CC's I used the rating twice. Each time it was for departing airports with 700' or higher ceilings and VFR near by. The ability to make those departures kept us from having to cancel reservations and make major changes to our itinerary. The frustration level starts to build up pretty fast if you're stuck somewhere for more than one extra night.

Seems to me, the hardest part of IFR is those first few trips into the clouds without your instructor in the right seat. The problem is you don't know what you don't know. You really have to take it slowly with respect to conditions. I still want my destination to be in easy reach and forecast to be VFR before I'll go (unless it's my home airport.)

Controllers tend to be very helpful if you're up front with them about your experience level and circumstances. IMC is serious business. I find myself still flying hours after parking the plane when I've been in the clouds. But "being in the system" with all those pros (old and young) and completing an actual IFR flight to a new destination is a trip.

John
 
Good Point

johnny stick said:
I have to chime in here. I am a VFR pilot and was pursuing my IFR rating so I could get in and out of the LA basin with the June Gloom. I never finished, and will not fly if there is a chance of IFR.

But, the IFR training made a much better pilot. For those who have no interest in IFR, I urge you to just get some IFR instruction; it did indeed make me a better pilot.

I did not know what I didn't know, until I took some instruction. JMHO
Click to expand...

Well put Johnny! That's exactly the point!

As an instructor holding all cfi certs, it really isn't the instrument rating that is the danger.....its Aeronautical Decision Making (ADM) that gets people in trouble(IFR or VFR). Flying into situations that they should never have. Sure there can be the occasion where should wx or other things change for the worse....that's why ADM is so important to deal with changing situations and err to the side of caution hopefully!

I called a friend the other day and left a voicemail. He called back later saying he was at a funeral for his daughters friend's father. Here is how her father passed away. My friend said he had eight children....and stated that he thought the man possibly was an air traffic controller???(His words...not mine!)

I found that the students I have trained for the instrument rating has really made them more savvy on wx....a lot less intimidated with ATC....and more confidence when the the weather mans forecast of cavu turns to clear and 3 miles in smoke or haze.

If you look at the stats......you will find many accidents caused from a non-instrument rated pilot flying into instrument conditions(how many would have survived with even skills a little rusty).....don't think you will find many with instrument rated pilot accidents due to flying inadvertently into VFR conditions. Just observations and thoughts over the years!

It's called continuing education.....and it beats basket weaving classes!:D Self improvement....for whatever reason is usually a good thing!:cool:
 
Being an IFR pilot would have helped

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We flew our longest RV vacation ever this year. All VFR but being a IFR pilot it sure would have been nice and safer to have that IFR ticket on a few occasions.

We went from SoCal to OSH to the Florida Keys and back to SoCal. Most of the time no big deal. A few times marginal visibility and landing back home I have decided to work on getting an IFR ticket. Here is why.

Leaving KYKN to KEAU there were clouds en route however KEAU was reporting clear and forecast to stay clear. The direct route it looked like there would be a short time we were "over the top" but to the left or right airports were reporting clear or scattered. We decided to fly above the scattered clouds departing KYKN. Well it was not to long before we were over a solid layer of clouds. We had plenty of fuel and according to XM we had a way to get down flying a short distance to the left or right. We ended up over the top for over an hour. I started doubting what XM was telling me as things seemed to be getting worse not better the closer we got to KEAU. About 20 minutes from KEAU it cleared up and we landed with scattered clouds and unlimited vis. I was not exactly happy or relaxed for that hour plus over the top. We were legal but we were smart is the question I was asking myself. For the first time I started thinking IFR training might not be a bad idea. Just knowing I had an option of getting down through that stuff if there was a problem vs a 20 to 30 minute flight to find a way down VFR would have gone a long way to a relaxing flight vs one wondering if I made a huge mistake.

The next situation was departing OSH and heading down to X51. From OSH to 3M7 was flown in legal VFR but not by much. All along the route airports were reporting clear and vis of 5 to 10 miles. I learned that "clear and 10 visibility" does not necessarily mean clear and 10 at altitude. Still not sure what the heck I missed but this was not a fun flight because I kept asking myself again what did I miss and did I mess up. It eventually cleared up and we made it to 3M7 with no problems. By the 3M7 is a GREAT place. Cheep fuel great folks and it sounds like a great place to stay if you need it and a car. I want to go back just to stay at the "cabin" they rent out it sounds like a nice place to stay with the wife. Back to my point having an IFR ticket in my pocket and current sure would have made me more relaxed.

The next hop that has me thinking hard of getting an IFR rating was from 3M7 to a planed stop at KAHN. Left 3M7 in beautiful conditions with some pretty white puffy clouds against a beautiful blue sky. Then about half way to Athens it started to get uncomfortable again aka Visibility in haze of 4 to 5 miles and again airports reporting clear and good visibility. It appeared to be no big deal with plenty of outs and marginal but flyable VFR, wrong. Around KDZJ the visibility sucked (reported in the area 10 miles) and the clouds started closing in and it started to rain a lot, XM showed outs but the eyes were saying not sure. Visibility was 4 or 5 miles in haze (same as most of the day sense leaving OSH) but the horizon became ... well ... not distinct and there were mountains in front of us (compared to mountains out here in the west these are nothing hardly deserving to be called mountains. However they are still hard dirt in the way). I looked to the left and behind and the horizon was better but still not distinct. For a second I thought about pushing and holding my "mode" button in my Trio to have it turn us around. Then I looked over my wife's shoulder to the right and nice clear horizon and good vis behind us, cool! We turned around and ended up at KRZR. KRZR has long and wide runway which was a welcome sight after making what was obviously not the best decision to continue when the WX started to go down hill. We spent the night there. By the way another great airport and FBO. They gave us a vehicle recommended a place to eat which turned out to be the best BBQ we have ever had. After lunch WX still sucked I was still mad at myself so we stayed. Again with IFR we probabily pushed on the WX was not that bad but it was not smart VFR WX (legal but not smart). With that IFR ticket I would not have been nervous or mad at myself.

The last straw for me deciding working on IFR would be worth it was from KRZR to KEUH. Again legal but not the best VFR situation. Stations along the way reporting VFR there were choices for an "out" not far away from our course line and plenty of fuel. Over the top for over an hour went to scattered not far from our destination and legal but not great visibility at destination. Again we found EUH to be a nice stop. The runway surface is nothing to brag about but it is long and wide, the folks are nice, the fuel is cheep and there is a BBQ within feet of the FBO (we wanted to make one more hop so we did not stay and eat). But I arrived not exactly relaxed or happy because the best "out" would have been an IFR ticket that I do not have.

For the rest of the trip no big deals. But when the choice needed to be made over the top or bounce around under we usually chose under. The few times we chose over as soon as it started to close in we went under. It was a bumpy and hot ride home from X51 to SoCal.


Long rambling explanation to say flying around the country can be done VFR but right now in my mind I want that IFR ticket for my comfort level and a additional way out in my tool box.

By the way had we needed to descend through the clouds which from all I read is 99% of the time deadly for the VFR pilot I would without question or hesitation have declared an emergency. We have a single axis AP so our odds might be 50/50 descending through the clouds. I do not like those odds. I would rather be explaining to the FAA what I did and what I learned vs killing my wife because my pride would not let me declare an emergency. To me is a VFR pilot in IFR conditions is without question an emergency.

Any way my take on IFR. Yea ya do not need it but comfort and safety level would sure improve with it.
 
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