Bought RV-4 project - but its not as it was sold!

I'm curious to know what folk think about a problem I've created for myself. I was looking for a part-built RV-4 that I could finish off - I wanted to get flying and knew that I would be fine with a bit of metal working, fitting instruments etc and plumbing the fuel system. I have previous completed and flown a QB RV-8 and at this point in my life didn't want the complete slow build experience.

I found a few candidates on Barnstormers, Trade-Plane etc, and eventually focused on one (not from VAF I hasten to add) in the northwest US. Because of the registration requirements in the UK, it was important that the airframe be built according to Van's plans without modifications, and the builder assured me that there were no modifications, it was all stock Vans. A local A and P inspected the plane and assured me that it was built according to plans, with good quality of construction. I got lots of photos and it looked OK.

Well - its just not like that! Already I have found 3 non-Van's modifications, the build quality of the fuselage is appalling, the wings and empennage are not so bad. I can see already that I will have to rebuild the empennage attach area, replace the rear turtle deck, the front floor, rip out the (non-standard) electric flap modification, and redo a load of rivets. I think I can retrieve it and end up with something that I am happy to fly in.....

I don't really have any redress against the seller except I think to shame him into a bit of a refund - and of course I might be unsuccessful. Should I just accept that its all my mistake and responsibility or do I email the guy with a list of the parts that I have to replace and ask if he'd like to contribute? Of course I'd like to phone him and rant, but that would likely be unhelpful, so I'll avoid that particular course.

Anyone got any thoughts?

Thanks
Chris

Sorry to hear that Chris,

What was the basis of your agreement with the A&P for the pre-buy inspection?

He has come up short for you as well if you were explicit as you say about needing a "built per Van's plans" project, not to mention not highlighting the quality shortcomings.

Hope you find a suitable resolution.

Steve

I know is frustrating when you hire a experienced set eyes and still have issues but it happens.
I buy and sell a lot of things, and in the process, several times I have been in a position of "what was I thinking". You had every opportunity to walk away and not buy it.
The seller could have very well thought it was a quality build, you will find that everyone's opinion of perfect is different.
My position is never look back just work with what you have and make the best of it. It might take you longer than planned and more expensive, but you will get through it and in the end you will have a plane to enjoy and a lot of memories in the process.

I can feel your frustration Chris - the long-distance aspect of your buy probably leaves you little recourse if the seller doesn't want to cooperate. I think you pretty much have to decide to "build on as required" or let the whole incident eat at you. Sharing the story with us is a great benefit to future potential buyers who can probably take away a few lessons to make their own purchases better.

As a Tech Counselor, I look at a lot of builds, and what I have found is that most builders overestimate the quality of their work. Most is good - not outstanding as they might think. Good is fine. Your desire for "no mods" might not have meant the same thing to you as to another builder because -4's are so different from "modern" kits - a lot is left up to the individual. On the -3, I am convinced that no two in the world are alike.

THe other disadvantage you faced was hiring a third-party "expert" from afar. Many A&P's have no fabrication experience, and aren't the best judges of construction. A&P school doesn't always teach you how to BUILD airplanes, but how to maintain them. (There are also many EXCELLENT A&P's - but telling the difference from afar can be tough.)

In the end, you have to ask yourself if a discount airline ticket, even from across the pond, would have cost more or less than the parts and time to fix the errors you have found - that is something for future buyers to consider.

Good luck with the build Chris - we are all here to help!

Ironflight said:

Your desire for "no mods" might not have meant the same thing to you as to another builder because -4's are so different from "modern" kits - a lot is left up to the individual. On the -3, I am convinced that no two in the world are alike.

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Exactly. My first thoughts when I read the original post. For the -4 the plans are not exact, more like sketches (compared with CAD drawings). There are no set paths for doing things, so you easily end up having to do modifications because your path was not the "best" path, it was in fact a dead end you have to work around somehow.

so, "no mods" is a very fuzzy term on the -4. In my opinion it means, no extra fuel tanks, wing span should not differ more than +- 3 inches and so on.

Yep, build on.

I think Paul's advice is the best you're going to find. Build on, and don't let it eat at you.

My brother had loaned a couple of grand to a kid his daughter was dating to buy a car. The kid was pretty strapped and it didn't change. He wasn't making the payments which was really eating at my brother. REALLY eating at him!

A message learned on a Sunday morning however solved the problem. He simply forgave the debt and moved on. Magically he wasn't bugged by it any longer, even a little bit. In fact, he then felt pretty good that he'd helped the kid out. In turn (and not necessarily germane to your case) that young man likely will carry that deed with him for the rest of his life and may someday pay it forward.

As pointed out earlier, the guy you bought from likely would disagree with you about the build quality, and you're just going to end up arguing with him and that will eat at you even more. No good will come of it.

So forget about it, chalk it up to experience and dig in!

Thanks guys. I have more or less got my blood pressure under control! I think lessons learned and yes, I'll just have to deal with it and accept that I'll spend more time riveting and have to replace a few panels. It could be worse!

I'll start a blog sometime soon and post some pictures. I think watching the posts on VAF gives a feeling of security that folks aspire to high building standards - but clearly outside the VAF world it isn't necessarily so....

Chris

Ironflight said:

THe other disadvantage you faced was hiring a third-party "expert" from afar. Many A&P's have no fabrication experience, and aren't the best judges of construction. A&P school doesn't always teach you how to BUILD airplanes, but how to maintain them. (There are also many EXCELLENT A&P's - but telling the difference from afar can be tough.)

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I agree completely, but another point is that it would be almost impossible for anybody who hasn't built a -4 to say whether it's built per the plans or not. Also, I have seen much worse workmanship on certified spam cans than is typical on a nicely built RV. I have also seen much worse workmanship on an RV than would ever pass on a certified bird. The best Prebuy inspection is from somebody who has built that model before (more than once helps). Next to that is someone who has built similar models (any RV except the -12, probably).

I helped a guy finish up an RV-10, who bought the kit sight unseen and had it shipped to my shop. The workmanship was so poor that we had to replace a bunch if parts. He even got the rear spar drilled wrong, which should be impossible on the -10 because both are prepunched. The tailcone was installed crooked. It was pathetic. I don't know what the guy got, if anything, from the original builder, but he just moved on and finished it up and is now flying and enjoying the plane.

I've been amazed on my -9A rebuild project how many items are not detailed versus the RV-10, where its so perfectly prepunched and so detailed in the plans that you have to either ignore instructions or think you have a better way to get something wrong. I am sure that the -4 is much less detailed than the -9 also.

I think it's always worth nicely letting the guy know that you are disappointed and have x number of hours of rework and x $ spent on replacement parts and would appreciate any help he would be willing to offer to make things right.

If you rant, he'll likely delete the email or hang up the phone & you won't see a dime.

Gotta Agree

Gotta agree with Jessee - let the seller know of the 'problems, etc' in a friendly way. Give him or her a chance to help make good the costs of correcting the deficiencies. I am not sure if you stated it or not but maybe the person who sold it to you wasn't the builder and so assumed that if you accepted his/her terms, then all was good.

Give the seller a chance to do the honorable thing. I sure would like to know it if someone bought something from me and was unhappy. Best to you!

chris mitchell said:

Thanks guys. I have more or less got my blood pressure under control! I think lessons learned and yes, I'll just have to deal with it and accept that I'll spend more time riveting and have to replace a few panels. It could be worse!

I'll start a blog sometime soon and post some pictures. I think watching the posts on VAF gives a feeling of security that folks aspire to high building standards - but clearly outside the VAF world it isn't necessarily so....

Chris

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Perhaps rather than focus on the quality, you could just ask for a refund on the cost of parts needed to remove the "not to plans" options.

That seems much less subjective, and both the builder and A&P said they didn't exist....