At what point is it too much?

My wife and I had a long discussion last night about our future financial plans (we are on the Dave Ramsey plan), and the cost of flying the RV-7 was on the list of things to talk about. I know we've had threads about this in the past, but I'm just wondering what current thoughts are on the cost of flying our RV's. My wife and I didn't come up with a number that we would say "enough is enough", but at some point, gas costing $X.xx has to be too much.

It's not really a matter of can I afford this...it's a matter of do I WANT to afford this, if the prices hit $X.xx. I don't know what that price is, but since we talked last night, I am just pondering it...I would not give up flying since there are cheaper ways to fly than RV's, so I'm just curious about RV specific thoughts.

Avgas is $10 per gallon here in the UK - fly while you've still got it so cheap...

I understand that...that's why I didn't put a dollar figure in my OP. I just wondered if I'm alone in thinking this, which I know I'm not. Looking for a discussion I guess on how far folks will go to feed the habit. I'm not saying I couldn't afford $10/gallon, I just don't think I would WANT to, that's all.

While the sky is overcast, I do not think the sky is falling.

I too have thought, Can I afford this? flying 100hrs/yr will be ~800gas, so if fuel increases $2/gal my hobby just cost an extra $1600/yr. I need to free up with $150/month, I've already dropped my DirectTV to save $50. next to go is going to be the land line phone($40). Friday night dinner out will the airport crowd($80/month).

Are things tightening up? sure, but little tweaking to our lifestyle is going work for us. The RV stays!....for now

I have wondered this same thought many times. I love to fly but it is a ridiculously expensive hobby that benefits really only me. I have a wife, three kids and a business that all require my attention and money. I would fly everyday if I could but when it costs me 90/hour to fly our 172 wet (which is "cheap" for the current rental market) I often wonder if its worth it. I find myself looking at cheaper and cheaper forms of flying including building an RV-12, a Sonex or just purchasing a 150 or similar so I can get my altitude therapy.
The AOPA is often wondering why the number of new pilots are dwindling. It's not rocket science. Its expensive to fly. Something has to be done to lower these expenses. Sheesh, a new Cirrus costs 650K. Why is an airplane so much flippin money? My opinion is that lawyers and lawsuits play a big role in the cost of our sport. We have allowed it to happen.
If we have the brains to develop a space shuttle that ACTUALLY works, we have the brains to develop a cheaper fuel to run our planes or a cheaper engine that burns a different type of fuel. (Why is an engine 25-30K...lawsuit protection). We as pilots need to step up to the plate and lead the charge. We need legislation that prevents frivolous lawsuits from being filed against parts and aircraft manufacturers so we don't have to pay ridiculous prices for engines, parts, etc. We need individual responsibilty so that when we fly VFR into IFR, crash and kill people we can't sue the aircraft manufacturer for millions. And finally, let's make a fuel and an engine that WORKS affordably. OK my rant is over. The question is...how do we do it?

cjensen said:

I understand that...that's why I didn't put a dollar figure in my OP. I just wondered if I'm alone in thinking this, which I know I'm not. Looking for a discussion I guess on how far folks will go to feed the habit. I'm not saying I couldn't afford $10/gallon, I just don't think I would WANT to, that's all.

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I can't afford $10 a gallon, thats why I am building not buying a new cirrus or BO......

Compromise with your inner Dave Ramsey self. We could all become hermits and live in caves and squirrel away all of our money under our straw filled burlap seed sacks we use as mattresses. (Do they still make burlap sacks?)

1. Split the cost of fuel with a buddy.
2. Start using mogas, you'll save a ton of money.
3. Limit your flying to $XXX fuel per month.
4. Sell 1/2 or 1/3rd share of your plane and use the money to pay off bills.
5. Find other areas to cut costs in the family budget
6. Tell your wife flying is cheaper than a physiologist and anti depression meds.
7. Call Dave Ramsy and tell him to go to ****.

how to reduce costs?

ah yes, the eternal question....justifying flying.
we all have to make choices. Do I drive a new 4x4 or a 1989 F150 P.o.s.
There's the plane right there. One Pint of beer a day in the summer is a gallon of AVgas. ( nearly).

I see the 'average' Rv flies 75 hours a year, so that's about $2600 of go-juice.
My fixed costs insurance, tie-down, maintenance, new gadgets etc. is about $3500 without getting all technical....so fuel is still less than half of my annual bill.
( actually I spent more like $300 on fuel last year, but that's my problem!)

I guess when push comes to shove, I'll have to look at taking on a partner, which will free up about $1500 of the fixed costs, or about 26 hours worth of fuel. Hopefully that will be enough.

Assuming facts not in evidence, your honor!

aarvig said:

Why is an airplane so much flippin money? I'll tell you, lawyers and lawsuits. We have allowed it to happen.
If we have the brains to develop a space shuttle that ACTUALLY works, we have the brains to develop a cheaper fuel to run our planes or a cheaper engine that burns a different type of fuel. (Why is an engine 25-30K...lawsuit protection).

Click to expand...

What would airplanes and engines cost if it weren't for lawyers and lawsuits? To what are you comparing the cost of airplanes and engines? How do we know what they "should" cost? Airplanes are built in such small quantities that it's hard to come up with a good basis for comparison.

And no, I'm not a lawyer...I'm an engineer in the aerospace industry. I cant afford a new Cirrus, either. That doesn't mean they're overpriced or over-lawyered or over-sued...it just means I don't make enough money.

mgomez said:

What would airplanes and engines cost if it weren't for lawyers and lawsuits? To what are you comparing the cost of airplanes and engines? How do we know what they "should" cost? Airplanes are built in such small quantities that it's hard to come up with a good basis for comparison.

And no, I'm not a lawyer...I'm an engineer in the aerospace industry. I cant afford a new Cirrus, either. That doesn't mean they're overpriced or over-lawyered or over-sued...it just means I don't make enough money.

Click to expand...

We just replaced aileron hinges on a Piper Archer (1977). The hinges were $400 bucks not including labor. Have you seen those hinges? I've purchased similar hinges for less than 10 bucks. Why were they so expensive, because they were certified and insured against lawsuit.

I guess that the answer to your question Chad, is going to depend on how each person looks at flying. If they look at it as a hobby that has to be traded off against other things in life, then certainly there will come a time when it falls below the line. If, on the other hand, flying is just part of life, then you’ll do it as long as you can buy groceries. When I started flying my -8, 100LL was about $175/gallon. I thought that was expensive, but while I was flying my Phase 1, prices shot up to over $3.00/gallon and more – the “big inflation” of gas prices. My first thought was that I was doomed – I’d never be able to afford it. But instead of counting the pennies, I just kept flying, and the bills managed to stay paid. Because I am an engineer, I have records that tell me exactly how much I am paying for aviation fuel in a year – but I quite looking at them a few years ago, and just go. When we travel, I credit the 100LL against my “vacation” budget, not my flying budget. It doesn’t really make any difference though – as long as I can pay the bills, I’ll be flying. I look forward to the day when we all have electric motor-gliders that we can fly for hours and hours on an overnight charge to get our altitude fix….but I bet I’ll still have a gas-burning performance machine in the hangar for when I absolutely, positively need to go fast….

For me, flying is like breathing – and flying a “Total Performance” airplane is a breath of fresh air!

Paul

Its a interesting question, Ive answered to myself before. It might sound stupid, but if i were in your position I would wait till the one morning when I wake up and say "thats it, its over im selling the plane and finding a new hobby"
When you dont need to ask anyones opinion, you know the road has really ended.

Well said Paul...

Ironflight said:

For me, flying is like breathing ? and flying a ?Total Performance? airplane is a breath of fresh air!

Paul

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But if all I could afford was to have my old Aeronca back, I would make the sacrifice and give up the performance to at least be up in the air.

I honestly can say...

that I've ever seen a hearse with a luggage rack or even a U-Haul trailer behind it... and I sure don't want to die with a *@$% load of money in the bank so I say spend your money on what you enjoy... it will keep you motivated and focused to earn a little more.

cjensen said:

I understand that...that's why I didn't put a dollar figure in my OP. I just wondered if I'm alone in thinking this, which I know I'm not. Looking for a discussion I guess on how far folks will go to feed the habit. I'm not saying I couldn't afford $10/gallon, I just don't think I would WANT to, that's all.

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Go fly formation and do a few loops and rolls first, then set the max $xxx price for gas. X will be a big number!

It's who I am

I am a pilot, therefore I fly.

cjensen said:

My wife and I had a long discussion last night about our future financial plans

Click to expand...

Good for you for even having the discussion. Too many don't, including the parade of elected officials we've seen over the past few decades.

The Bonanza I fly burns 14-15 gph. I expect the O-360 RV-6 I just bought to burn about 8 gph most of the time, partly since I?m starting out at 5600' and I?ll be leaned about an inch even for takeoff.

Currently I don?t fly the Bonanza as often as I?d like, partly due to fuel costs and partly due to availability, as it is a flying club plane. The hourly dry rate plus fuel nets the Bonanza out at ~$150/hr, but I still fly it some. I took it up to the Vetterman?s fly-in last summer.

For ease of math let?s say gas is about $5 now. Just for fuel, the Bonanza is ~$75/hr and the RV is $40/hr.

If gas doubled to $10/gal, putting the RV at ~$80/hr for gas, I think I?d fly less, slow down some, but still fly around the pattern whenever I could. Even at $10/gal I?m paying about half the hourly rate as I am now for the Bonanza. I know that?s not exactly apples to apples comparison because of all the other costs, but that's how I'll explain it to the war committee.

I think we will see $6/gal pretty soon even at the cheap fields, just like we did a few years ago, but I?m pretty sure that won?t slow me down.

I think the pain will start at about $7/gal, but I'll fight through it. Even at $10/gal I?ll still be flying around locally pretty often.

There is no way gas prices south of $20 will keep me entirely out of the air while I still have a job. I just bought this plane. I'm going to fly it!

If we see $20/gal, there will be other issues to worry about though.

Sums it up nicely

dhall_polo said:

Go fly formation ... then set the max $xxx price for gas. X will be a big number!

Click to expand...

twop

(extra characters to fulfill the min msg post size)

Forecast: gloom

Fuel:

How is the price of fuel determined? The price-at-the-pump is the governing factor. Avgas (amounting to less than the proverbial drop in the bucket) is hostage to this process (just double the price-at-the-pump and you have the approximate price of Avgas).

It?s supply and demand. Basically, the oil companies raise the price until consumers start cutting back, then they lower it a little. It's a simple algorithm and one that ensures the oil companies will always post record profits (Exxon earned profits of 6.3 billion in the first three months of 2010, which is more than the GNP of most Third-World nations). Even BP profit is back in the billions despite the Gulf Oil Spill disaster.

The only way that fuel prices will stop going up is if we stop buying fuel and that ain't going to happen. We?re talking about personal ground transportation, not airplanes. There isn?t enough Avgas consumed to matter much to the oil companies. They would probably rather not bother with Avgas at all.

The best we can hope for is an alternate fuel like Swift-fuel, which would help to break the oil companies? monopoly. You may wonder why it is taking so long to get approval for Swift-fuel, et. al. Money buys influence and the oil companies have plenty of money (if Swift-fuel works for airplanes, there is no reason it wouldn?t work for cars as well).

Litigation:

This certainly doesn't apply to everyone in the legal profession, but there is a certain class of lawyers who could be categorized as "ambulance chasers". Greed is their primary motivating factor. When these folks are done picking clean the bones of General Aviation, they will move on to other tasty carcasses. Some of them are true innovators, as witnessed by the creative variety of reasons that they exhort viewers to sue for in their TV advertisements. Don't expect any relief from litigation, it's the American way.

Bureaucracy:

The government has to take some credit for the impending victory against the forces of General Aviation. Persons who are bureaucrats by nature are particularly uncomfortable with a citizenry that has too much freedom. Curtailing freedom seems to be the primary objective of most bureaucrats. Bureaucracy and rule-making are the last line of defense to ensure we don?t escape the onslaught of fuel prices and litigation.

Bottom Line:

Consider yourself fortunate that you have been able to participate in this wonderful thing we call General Aviation before it ceases to exist (as we now know it), as will certainly be the case at some point in the future, whether it's 10, 25, 50 or 100 years from now.

Sorry to be the doomsayer.

Change is the only constant

I recently evaluated this for myself. I'm spending roughly $700/month on flying after I figure in the fixed costs. For now it's worth it, but I am a serial hobbiest and have quit flying for other hobbies before. I don't plan on leaving the RV now, but am comfortable with the idea.

I learned to fly while flipping burgers at Wendy's and living in the main hangar at the airport as an unpaid night watchman. Shortly after I got my private, this lifestyle got to me and I didn't fly again for quite a few years.

After a bit of time working construction, the next big commitment for me was climbing. I spent over 10 years working part time and climbing rocks, mountains, and ice all over the world. I lived climbing as much or more as I lived airplanes earlier. Eventually I squeezed an engineering degree and with my resulting income delta was able to build an RV and return to aviation. There was a catch though--I had to quit climbing to make time for the RV. I tried climbing casually after the plane was done, but climbing is a lot like flying. If you don't do it a lot proficiency (and strength) drop to the point it's not worth the effort. I hate doing things half way.

Long story short, you may decide it's not worth either the financial or time cost some day. If you do that, you will probably find something else to fill the void. Barring life changing illness, or equivalent, you can always return to the RV world when it suits you. Either way, you seem like the sort of person that will remain engaged in something that will help you feel whole. Disengaged people don't have what it takes to build an RV. Do what feels right and enjoy the adventure.

Guy

Sky High

My cost just to have the potential to fly the RV is $360 a month. That's just hanger, insurance, BFR, Medical. I used to share a 210 with two other pilots. With 2-6k annuals out of pocket still almost the same.
I learned in a 150 rental for 6/hr wet, IFR 172 for 12/hr wet.
A bird's gotta fly....

I don't like the answer I get when I put flying costs down on paper...can we then just keep this a lawyer bashing thread?

Mark

Seems to me that as some folks have indicated, that there's three sets of costs here.

The big one is getting or building the plane. You pay this once and it's a capital cost with some sweat, time and blood mixed in.

The next one is the cost for the hangar or tiedown, the insurance and the condition inspection, your medical and biannual, too. This is basically the annual cost to have the capability of flying. You gotta pay this before you even start the motor.

The marginal cost for fuel and oil is pretty low compared to these. I bet that if you can provide yourself with the airplane, ready and legal to fly, you can really afford the marginal cost of operating it.

Dave

Guy Prevost said:

the next big commitment for me was climbing. I spent over 10 years working part time and climbing rocks, mountains, and ice all over the world. I lived climbing as much or more as I lived airplanes earlier. Eventually I squeezed an engineering degree and with my resulting income delta was able to build an RV and return to aviation. There was a catch though--I had to quit climbing to make time for the RV. I tried climbing casually after the plane was done, but climbing is a lot like flying. If you don't do it a lot proficiency (and strength) drop to the point it's not worth the effort. I hate doing things half way.
Guy

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Sounds like my life story so I can relate to completely. Though I still when I go to bed and start day dreaming just to fall asleep, in my dreams I am still ice climbing and scaling high peaks. But then I wake up to reality just to find out my best way to get that high (both emotionally and actual) is to fly.
As for budget goes, my wife understands my passion for this and has been overly generous with the our budget so I have got 150+ hours per year since we finished the 7 but we will adjust as life changes.

percantage of other costs

Chad,
I read through all of the other posts hoping someone would comment on my thoughts. The closest to my thoughts were from Paul when he talks about his initial 1.75/gal costs going up to 3.00/gal and he was still flying. As Paul mentioned, as long as we can pay our bills we will continue to spend money on flying.

Why are we still flying when fuel price goes up by a nickel/gal, fifty cents/gal, a dollar/gal, doubles, triples, quadruples in price? Because when we pay those additional prices we are paying from one overall pot of money. So just looking at the end price of $X.xx as a finite point when we say "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH", will be a subjective figure that even within our own thought processes we will change. The reason for this is that we are not using that $X.xx figure in a comparison analysis. That is the only true way any of us will be able to adequately answer your question.

How are we going to do that? Well, we have to compare that $X.xx/gal to the overall lump sum of money we think we have to pull that money from. This is going to be a percentage of the "Overall Cost to Live" we have set for ourselves. This Overall Cost to Live will be the total dollar amount of our net income, savings, etc. that supplies the money to support our existance. So if we think of the $X.xx/gal it cost for fuel for our hobby, we need to analyze the percentage of the fuel expense in comparison to the overall dollar amount we have to spend. Divide the $X.xx/gal * the total amount of fuel purchased for fuel spent (F) by the total amount of money we have available to us to spend (M) and multiply by 100 to get a percentage of overall money available to spend (%I).

Thus a formula for an annual fuel expense might look like this:
(F/M)*100 = %I

So an example: if I spend 5.00/gal and I use 500 gallons in a year (5.00 * 500 = $2500) and then I compare that figure to the overall available money, say $50,000 (net income + savings + etc.) we can look at a percentage of the overall amount of money I have.

($2500/$50000)*100 = 5%

I am spending 5% of my total amount of available money in a year for fuel for the airplane.

This is the number we need to analyze. What percentage of the overall money available to me am I willing to spend before I say "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH"? Is it 5%, 10%, 25%, 50% of my overall amount of money available?

Of course, we cannot do this analysis in a vacuum. The truth is, all of the other things we spend money on have to be analyzed in this manner too. Once we do that though, we can start doing an analysis that will allow us to PRIORITIZE our expenses. That is to say:

Based on a Prioritized List I creat that shows me the Percentage of money I am spending on Fuel for the airplane, fuel for the car, food on the table, house payment, kids education, etc., etc., etc. I can now figure out at what point do I have to look at stopping spending money on fuel for the airplane, or flying all together.

Click to expand...

Well I hope you get the picture. Once we can determine what percentage of the overall costs of our house hold expense is going to this hobby, we will then be able to answer for ourselves the question you pose.

It does take more than just looking at hard and fast DOLLAR amounts for us to make that determination.

Well, I most certainly did not intend to reply with such a long post. This is the manner in which I analyze whether I am going to spend money on flying or not. I hope it makes sense and that I have explained my thoughts well enough to be understood.

Live Long and Prosper.

twop???

twop? whazzat? A Google search says "Television without Pity." That must not be right, because that has nothing to do with this thread.

"ttid" seems more appropriate to me. (This thread is depressing.)

I'm out.

Don

I'm way too lazy for a long dissertation, but here's a short one on the issue of tort (not that I'm a big fan of it...):
That ain't what makes airplanes (or medical care, or anything else) so expensive.

Supporting argument: Follow the money. A quarter million in liability ins costs $300-$400. $50K in hull costs 3 to 4 times that much. I'm betting that insurance companies know where the risks are.

The real reason that <insert product here> costs so much is because the vendor can charge that much to the guy who feels he must have it. How can a hospital charge you $6 for a Tylenol? Answer: because for all practical purposes, you don't have a choice. Any discussion of why would get this post deleted, so I'll stop here.

I do feel the pain on the cost/benefit analysis. I'm fortunate to have stumbled into a situation where my house note, hangar rent, and ins all rolled up together are less that what most pay in hangar rent, & I still struggle with justifying the cost per hour of fun.

Charlie

Justification

I don't think you can honestly justify building & flying an airplane anymore than you can golfing, hunting (the most expensive meat there is), hotrodding, fancy cars, etc.

Its a hobby! Just for fun, you know.

I don't golf, hunt, drink beer, go to the movies, drive expensive cars or anything else so my flying is not all that bad.

I just got my -9A out of phase I. Used an average of 5 gph for 46 hours.

I used a 50-50 mix of 100ll and mogas for an average cost of ~$4/gal.

$20/hr for fuel and, a yet unknown, amount of money per hour to cover hanger, insurance, maintenance, etc.

My partner is a CFI that can do my BFRs and I do the oil changes, etc.

The hanger is $200/month and insurance is about $127/month.

We can ween the plane off 100ll for some savings. I was thinking about $45/hr probably would cover most of it (15 hr/month =$675) split two ways.

I have a cardboard sign: "will work for aviation fuel" and a freeway offramp picked out but I don't think I'll need it

At this point, I can afford to fly this thing some.

Dave
-9A out of ph 1

JonJay said:

But if all I could afford was to have my old Aeronca back, I would make the sacrifice and give up the performance to at least be up in the air.

Click to expand...

This is how I feel after talking with my wife about all this last night. No matter what happens with the RV (it's NOT for sale, and we don't have a plan to sell at this point), I will make a way to fly...be it in an Aeronca, Cub, Citabria, whatever. And I am gonna build another...see my sig.

Good discussion now! It's just interesting food for thought from time to time, especially when future financial goals come in to the picture. Hehe...and I don't subscribe to the "can't take it with you" theory...I'd like to have something to pass along. Maybe it's my RV that I keep forever and pass down!

Like many, I obsess over the cost of fuel, even though it certainly isn't the only expense, or maybe even the highest expense, but it certainly impacts the hourly flying cost the most. And the point of all of this effort we expend is to fly.

I'm hoping the following isn't just smoke and mirrors and false hopes - it would change everything...

http://www.jouleunlimited.com/

Value Proposition

Chad,
I understand where you are coming from. I am getting closer to flying my bird and I sometimes worry about the costs (hangar, insurance, fuel, mx reserves).

In the end I feel that the value I'll get from my RV will outweigh the costs. At some point it won't and I'll sell it and move on to something cheaper.

In the mean time, I refuse to obsess about it. If I truely can't afford it, I'll find away to create more money by offloading expenses I have or bringing in more income - if I want it bad enough.

Good luck on your journey, your results may vary...

Well, let's agree to disagree

aarvig said:

We just replaced aileron hinges on a Piper Archer (1977). The hinges were $400 bucks not including labor. Have you seen those hinges? I've purchased similar hinges for less than 10 bucks. Why were they so expensive, because they were certified and insured against lawsuit.

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No question that liability insurance and certification costs are some of the things they considered when setting the price. But they might not, by themselves, account for the $390 difference. Some of the others might be:

• 
  "Because we can," also known as "supply and demand." Owners need spare parts, you have to buy approved parts per the regs, so they charge what they think people are willing to pay.

• 
  There are costs other than the cost of goods sold, such as the cost of carrying inventory, the cost of overhead, the cost of engineering (someone had to decide those hingers are the right one)

• 
  When anything goes wrong with a product, people like us expect to pick up the phone and have people like Piper answer questions, accept returns, etc. That all costs money.

Aviation is expensive, and there are a few things we can do to control costs (like build a homebuilt, run it on mogas, fly slower, buy a smaller engine, build no more airplane than we need, etc.)

Looking for the bad guy to blame is not likely to help. I rather doubt we will find much sympathy amongst our elected representatives, or the non-flying public, by complaining that our hobby -- burning scarce fuel to fly our own airplanes whenever and wherever we like -- is too expensive.

By the way, my profile photo is me flying a glider...another way to cut the cost of your flying and make it less dependent on the price of avgas.

flying is therapy

I keep telling family and friends who "don't get it" that flying is therapy for me. so, as long as it stays below the going rate (what's probably $150+/hr) then the plane is saving me money - and my sanity

Family Mentality

Back when my dad owned a Cessna 140A (Nice radio, working transponder, electric starter, 100 mph... all for 4.5 gph. Not too bad), he always said that you simply cannot look at the money involved, because plane's are not affordable. They're never about the money. It's about the fun. Fortunately for him, my mom was on board with this line of thinking.

He told me about a LAX-CVG red-eye flight he was flying when his mind wandered and he accidentally started calculating the total yearly cost of the plane. He said he stopped before he got any farther. Again, he reiterated to me that planes are not economical. They're just for fun. If you keep track, you'll get depressed.

cjensen, I really like your plan. I hope to build an -8, and when the day comes that I can't afford to keep it, I plan on getting a Champ.

rv7boy said:

twop? whazzat? ...
I'm out.

Don

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It's a crisp and prompt radio call from the wingman to acknowledge an instruction from lead when flying formation ... I was keeping with the theme there

ukncessnadrvr said:

I'm hoping the following isn't just smoke and mirrors and false hopes - it would change everything...
http://www.jouleunlimited.com/

Click to expand...

Show me the product in commercial applications...at your corner gas station, etc.

Torch76 said:

Back when my dad owned a Cessna 140A (Nice radio, working transponder, electric starter, 100 mph... all for 4.5 gph. Not too bad), he always said that you simply cannot look at the money involved, because plane's are not affordable. They're never about the money. It's about the fun. Fortunately for him, my mom was on board with this line of thinking.

He told me about a LAX-CVG red-eye flight he was flying when his mind wandered and he accidentally started calculating the total yearly cost of the plane. He said he stopped before he got any farther. Again, he reiterated to me that planes are not economical. They're just for fun. If you keep track, you'll get depressed.

cjensen, I really like your plan. I hope to build an -8, and when the day comes that I can't afford to keep it, I plan on getting a Champ.

Click to expand...

Fly Herc's? Your username caught my eye...

Hi Chad,

We?re Ramsey fans also. Thirteen days to step seven, and I have been rationing myself on the -8 until we get there. Now that we are almost there, I find myself 2nd guessing everything I want to spend on the plane. I?m very fortunate that Deb supports anything I want to do on it, but that just makes it even tougher, because I?m probably going to be flying it 90% of the time without her.

It?s impossible to justify any of it, but flying is the only thing I?ve ever wanted to do and I don?t do it professionally. So If I want to fly, it?s going to cost me. Still at some point, I might decide enough is enough and throw in the towel?

As a former prez said, ?I feel your Pain??

Awesome Bill!! Congrats on being so close to 7!!

rv7charlie said:

I'm way too lazy for a long dissertation, but here's a short one on the issue of tort (not that I'm a big fan of it...):
That ain't what makes airplanes (or medical care, or anything else) so expensive.


Charlie

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With all due respect....why then does malpractice insurance for OB/GYN cost anywhere from 175,000 to 250,000 per year? Because they are the MOST SUED doctors out there. Urologists have to pay anywhere between 65,000 and 80,000 per year. I could go on and on. They have to pay for that cost somewhere. You can't tell me litigation is not a drain on our economy.

aarvig said:

With all due respect....why then does malpractice insurance for OB/GYN cost anywhere from 175,000 to 250,000 per year? Because they are the MOST SUED doctors out there. Urologists have to pay anywhere between 65,000 and 80,000 per year. I could go on and on. They have to pay for that cost somewhere. You can't tell me litigation is not a drain on our economy.

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Guys, with all due respect to you...this has nothing to do with what we are really discussing here.

I think they said you need to become a lawyer, or was that a doctor?

cjensen said:

Guys, with all due respect to you...this has nothing to do with what we are really discussing here.

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When flying is in your blood, you will find a way..... I think there are a lot of good ideas and suggestions in the thread.

I am impressed that you are planning. What is the saying, failure to plan is planning to fail?

The real issue for me is that I am upper-middle aged and would like to retire in a few years. We are hoping to fly a lot during retirement, every place from shore to shore! Then, when the day comes and I can't fly anymore, it would be nice to be able to recover some of the cost spent on the RV. The real question is then, if there is a tipping point on cost, and it aligns with my selling time, will the RV be worth anything? Whether it be fuel cost or recession eating away at the other end, will a lot of RV's come to the used market in a very short time and kill the values? Or, will a lot of us retire from flying in a few year period and kill the used RV value? I can see operating cost being one tipping point with gas leading the way, and I can see age of pilots being the cause. All GA will face the same dilemma. Will this be the end of GA as we know it? Without a whole lot of young pilots coming up the ranks, it looks bad.

Geeze, I depress myself!

Gotta hurry up and get it done! Plan to move to the airport for final assembly this time next year.

One way you might know it is time to stop being an RV owner: when you can't afford the "opportunity cost" of owning an RV.

Unless you are in a multiple owner partnership, it's pretty hard to justify owning an RV (or many other planes for that matter) on economic grounds. Having $60K+ in the form of an RV sitting in a hanger is equivalent to losing whatever that same $60K would have yielded in the market. At the market average of about 10% per year (long-term), it's costing $6000 every year in opportunity cost just to own the plane. That's a fair number of aircraft rental hours if you just need to get in the air. Plus, in the rental situation, you'd be saving all of those other fixed costs that, in turn, could be invested to subsidize the rental costs even further.

Where this analysis breaks down is that there is something to be said about flying your own plane and flying it when you want to. It also may not work as well if you fly a TON of hours, or if your plane maintains or (more likely necessary) increases its value significantly by the time you sell it. Not sure I'd bet on the latter though. It really takes a spreadsheet to figure out long-term opportunity cost.

Living debt free per Dave Ramsey or others is great. As far as RV-ownership goes, however, it's probably best not to accumulate any debt in the building/acquisition process in the first place, especially if you have kids or family that is depending on you. Then you will have a lot more flexibility in maintaining a debt-free lifestyle in the future.

cjensen said:

Guys, with all due respect to you...this has nothing to do with what we are really discussing here.

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I know, I know...you can tell how my day in health care has been. Sorry to hijack your thread Chad.

When AV gas was 75 cents a gallon, 42 years ago, I told myself that I would quit flying if it ever got up to 2 dollars a gallon. When it got to two dollars, I moved the high water mark to three....and so on.

Well, I am still flying. Bitching about the price of fuel everytime I top off the tanks. Thinking about how **** expensive this hobby has really become.

But remember this, when you run out of money, you quit spending it.

I'm going to keep on flying until I have no more money....period.

As they say, you only go around once. Might as well enjoy it while you can.

Tom
RV-4
Pietenpol Aircamper

Chad, your logic and gut feeling are perfectly reasonable and I have parallel thoughts on occasion. Part of the reason, a large part actually, why I am building a dirt simple putt-around-at-80mph open-cockpit RV-3B (build log) as a second plane is that I’m pretty sure sometime down the road this will be my primary (and eventually) only plane. Maybe that’s 15 years from now… Finances and fiscal realities dictate this path as the kids get older and the college bills start to come due (and if you want to retire someday you have to have something squirreled away). I’m a Dave Ramsey fan also…three years left on the house - currently our only debt.

125hp rebuilt engine / used wood prop / used carb / mags / no radio / stupid cheap (I’m budgeting $28K for the whole thing). No insurance (calculated risk). Taste and feel of a Ryan STA, but MUCH more affordable. That’s my long term flying plan….

I see the 70yr old guys come out and putt their Cubs around the patch for .3hr twice a week, and I think I’d be perfectly content doing that too. For me it’s not distance and speed, it’s getting some distance between me and the ground. Avgas would have to be insanely expensive to not be able to fly .3hrs twice a week.

I make a concerted effort to free up avgas money by cooking at home most days, wearing free SteinAir shirts, canceling the land line and riding the motorcycle (47mpg) anytime it’s above 50°F. This frees up a surprisingly large amount of money. That and not having a large house!

I will still fly as long as I can, but I foresee the mission changing to more of a local ‘romance of flight’ thing down the road (decades?), with little to no long distance traveling. I'm naturally drawn to the visual, an example being the long shadows from a row of trees across a plowed farm at sunrise. Dipping a wing 20 degrees and taking a picture from an open cockpit with the point-n-shoot hanging around my neck sounds more fun to me than flying 9 hours cross country. Cheap rewarding fun (for me).

Of course, this coming from a guy who spent .5hrs under the hood today shooting the RNAV 17 into KLUD <g>.

I am called to fly, and if gas is $25/gal I'll still do it (just differently).

Good, healthy discussion topic. Thank you for starting it.

br,
dr

PS: FWIW, my RV-6 has been flying for 8½ years. It was worth every penny and I don’t regret a second (or penny) of it.

Chad,
My wife and I are also Ramsey fans and are currently working on paying off the house. I do not know how long you have been following the Ramsey plan, but I do know you have not had your plane flying for much over 6 months or so. I believe you will be amazed at how much money you have once you are paying attention (down to the penny) to where it is going. I think alot of us forgo new vehicles, not eat out and consistently giving up things on a daily basis to get ahead. My wings were scheduled to ship this week but the KGB, I mean the IRS wants a couple grand so I had to put off the other half of the wing payment. It stinks(big time) but paying off the house has to come first. If you are just starting the Ramsey plan I think you may be suprised at how far your money will go when you get the ball rolling. Best of luck to you and Britt.

I hear ya Joe...we drive older used paid for cars and have been on the plan since October '09...making great progress!! It's working!

Doug...same reason I'm starting a Hummel Bird!

Good stuff...

Gas and Flying

My advice.....Fly
Passion has no price, if its what you love you will find a way, many ideas have been presented here. The alternative would be to be on the ground looking up....and being sad. For me I need to be in the sky.
Peter
RV-6

PS maybe its time to reread Biplane Nothing by Chance or Fate is the Hunter again