Tail Wheel Miss-adventure

[luddite42]

Originally Posted by David-aviator

If one goes for a stall landing, the tail wheel touches first. What is the point of landing like that?

"Full stall" landing is a misnomer. Very few tailwheel airplanes are stalled in a 3-point attitude - mostly the bush type planes with big bushwheels, giving them a steep deck angle. Standard J-3's and Stearmans come very close. RVs and many others do not.

Originally Posted by David-aviator

Wolfgang Langewiesche was right in "Stick and Rudder", there is a better way to land an airplane than stalling it in or 3 pointing it.

He wasn't right about that. Too many variables associated with aircraft type and/or conditions to make a right or wrong statements. If your airplane is not well suited to 3-pointers and they offer no utility, don't do them other than for the helluvit if you want. Other airplanes are not well-suited for wheel landings. Whatever gets the job done.

Originally Posted by David-aviator

He felt the stall landing was out of control and unsafe.

I like Langeweische's work, but that is utterly silly.

[Chkaharyer99]

Originally Posted by David-aviator

Three pointers in the tool box?

I do quite well 3 pointing a Citabria. But in the 8 a 3 point landing is no where near stalled or ready to quit flying. What is the point of landing like that? If one goes for a stall landing, the tail wheel touches first. What is the point of landing like that?

What I know for sure is the 8 feels better wheel landing than attempting to stall it in or 3 pointing it. That is my experience.

The Citabria feels great 3 pointing it, the RV-8 does not.

That's not to say I won't try 3 pointing the 8 again, I don't give up easy.

I share your views David.

I'm a new pilot and had to go to Benson Arizona to pickup the RV-8 I purchased. I tried to three point land it like I was taught in the RV-7 during my transition training. Boy did I get surprised. I spent three very frustrating days scaring myself. My confidence was so shaken. Then I read every post on these two VAF threads:

"Landing an RV-8"
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ad.php?t=16788

"RV-8 Wheel Landing...."
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=114600

On that third day I began making tail wheel low wheel landings. What an amazing difference.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences. Helped to make me a more confident and competent RV-8 driver.

[JPalese]

FWIW:

I was almost exclusively a 3 point landing guy until I got checked out in a t/w aircraft by the CAF.

The check pilot drove home the point that the AAF reduced their landing accident rate by ~65% when they went from 3 point landings to the tail low wheel landing method.

Since then, I land almost exclusively with a tail low wheel landing unless I have a reason not to.

Whatever you choose, stay within your limits and the airplane's limits.

[David-aviator]

Weather improved, flew today, 3 decent landings.

Life is good....but sad to see so much water everywhere after so much rain this past week. Some people have a mess to deal with. Lots of farm land will not produce this year. Ducks and geese are happy.

River patrol revealed no terrorist subs or surface boats...I keep a close eye out for the sneaky rats.

The 8 is flying great! The Wright Brothers would have liked it.....reading the latest book about their life, they were remarkable.

[Cart]

get proper tail low attitude and then try NOT to land the plane.

Agree with Tom. As I tell my students, set and hold the attitude and let the ground come to plane!

[n5lp]

It doesn't bother me very much, but I am kind of mystified by the streaks. Lately I am on a streak of thumping it in with my customary 3 pointers in the RV-6. It is a matter of being a few inches off in the judgment. I just plow ahead and never apologize to the passengers. I don't apologize because I think it isn't very important.

I had an airline pilot friend back in the B727 days. He talked about how you could make all kind of good judgments, navigate around every thunderstorm in the country and what you were judged by was the unimportant detail of how smooth the landing was.

That being said, today I was only off a couple of inches in the height calculation and it was a lot more fun schumping on rather than thumping on.

Occasionally I can pull off a wheel landing but I don't really like them. I have full stalled the 6 on and that is very very ugly indeed.

[BaylorAviator]

Some days after not flying for a while I seem to grease the 3pt landings. Though now I've been mostly wheel landing in the 8. I usually talk myself through every landing like "little more power, hold it, etc" Some times with full flaps, I don't adjust the trim enough and bounce. I have to get that feeling of an aft CG where the plane wants to lift the nose a tad, if I want to do a 3pt.

In my 8 I usually keep 9-10in of manifold for wheel landings, and for 3pt I try to keep that same power till I have the runway made, then cut power, let the plane float low to the ground and almost let it fly itself to the runway. It all depends on speed for each as well. 3pt. I like to keep around 75knots indicated on short final and let the speed die off as I ease off the power and let the wheels touch.

Then for wheel landings I usually do about the same speed. Anything greater and I get the tendency to bounce or sometimes shake the gear. All comes down to a stable approach, airspeed, and height judgement. And keep those feet working softly.

Honestly I've been told that in a 3pt, if crosswind isn't bad, you can land and not use the rudder in the 8. I sometimes over correct and came close to losing it a few times. Scared me, but we all learn from our mistakes. If the landing isn't good just go around. I sometimes add power, pop back up, and try for a second go if I have a large runway.

I have fully 3pt stalled it once. Thankfully I was a few inches off the ground and she settled nicely. felt the whole buffet and all. Has anyone flown an 8 in a 17knot crosswind or more? Ive done 16 and that was a handful.

As they say "A good landing is one you can walk away from." I always strive to grease my landings, and every landing is different so keep up the work! I've only got 100 tailwheel time, but can't wait to start a long cross country nationwide!

[JonJay]

If you can master a tail low minimum airspeed wheel landing, stick it on the mark, and roll it up, no worries. However, that is not what I see most newbies doing. They fly it on with excess airspeed keeping power in until they find the runway and then chop the throttle once they stick it on. Sloppy and inconsistent touch down and roll out distance follows.
Our strip is 2000' with 50' trees on each end. Don't try wheelies here unless you know how to do them well or you will be screeching and smoking tires.

Also, you may find yourself in conditions that don't suit keeping your tail in the air. Locking tail wheels where invented for a reason and they don't do you any good with your tail in the air. If all you have in that tool box are wheelies and you get stuck with a severe gusty cross wind or a cross quartering tailwind, you will want to feel comfortable with three pointing even if they aren't very pretty. Put the stick in you lap and keep it straight and all will be forgiven.

My two cents, and that's all it is worth!

(by the way, none of the high time 8 pilots I know wheel it on at our home field)

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

So I needed to fly the RV-8 to a grass strip *today* to get the condition inspection done. Since major surgery seven months ago, my flying has been working its way back up to proficiency:
* A half dozen flights in the right seat of my beautiful old Cessna 175 in preparation to check out the new owner (I'm a CFII)
* A half dozen flights in my new (to me) RV-9A, and those flights have been, uh, interesting because of unfamiliar and complex glass cockpit instrumentation, idle speed too high so the plane doesn't slow down, and high cylinder head temperatures.
* One quick flight, one very good landing in the RV-8.

With a small line of thunderstorms coming, and the possibility of lots of crosswinds, I headed out on the 20 mile X-C to a narrow grass strip with trees at one end. The RV-8 interior smelled good, being in the airplane made me feel good, even the bumps in the turbulence felt good.

Base was at a 60 degree angle to the runway to avoid the highest trees, with a low altitude turn to align with the runway. As I straightened out, I had extra descent rate that I checked with power, and the landing and rollout were right on centerline, at least, until the tail came down.

The positive contributing factors:
* Lots of experience over my flying career
* Recent experience in the RV-9A. It doesn't fly much like the RV-8, but the act of conscientiously flying with precision carried over in a big way
* Good feel for the RV-8. Some of that was airplane, some was me
* Feeling good about the flight and having my head in the game

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer

So I needed to fly the RV-8 to a grass strip *today* to get the condition inspection done. Since major surgery seven months ago, my flying has been working its way back up to proficiency:
* A half dozen flights in the right seat of my beautiful old Cessna 175 in preparation to check out the new owner (I'm a CFII)
* A half dozen flights in my new (to me) RV-9A, and those flights have been, uh, interesting because of unfamiliar and complex glass cockpit instrumentation, idle speed too high so the plane doesn't slow down, and high cylinder head temperatures.
* One quick flight, one very good landing in the RV-8.

With a small line of thunderstorms coming, and the possibility of lots of crosswinds, I headed out on the 20 mile X-C to a narrow grass strip with trees at one end. The RV-8 interior smelled good, being in the airplane made me feel good, even the bumps in the turbulence felt good.

Base was at a 60 degree angle to the runway to avoid the highest trees, with a low altitude turn to align with the runway. As I straightened out, I had extra descent rate that I checked with power, and the landing and rollout were right on centerline, at least, until the tail came down.

The positive contributing factors:
* Lots of experience over my flying career
* Recent experience in the RV-9A. It doesn't fly much like the RV-8, but the act of conscientiously flying with precision carried over in a big way
* Good feel for the RV-8. Some of that was airplane, some was me
* Feeling good about the flight and having my head in the game

I one upped ya today! I got my BFR in Scotty's PA-16 Clipper...and I am not tail wheel "rated"....nor was I current, in fact I have less than 5 hours and 20 landings since I sold my airplane a year ago. I only scared my instructor once .
After getting some time in the Clipper, I cannot imagine the -8 or the -7 being that big of a deal. Can't wait to finish Scott's -7 and try out my theory.