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ADSB thoughts

redhawk

Well Known Member
I have a Lynx NGT9000 and I have to say it has saved me a few near misses (or worse !) since installed. I am concerned that our constant monitoring with ADSB-out will place those of us who regularly fly ?in the backcountry? and not ?over it? can place us in legal jeopardy if we fly over persons on the ground who are disturbed by airplane noise and perceive us as a ?low flying aircraft?, violating the 500? rule near a ?person? in a ?sparsely populated area?. (FAR 91.119) Years ago a pilot at Redtail Aviation in Moab told me about how often hikers on the ground are reporting their pilots for ?low flying?. With the advent of Apps that can identify overhead aircraft by anyone on the ground with a smart phone, it brings up the issue of privacy.
I understand the FAA is coming out with a website to opt to de-identify your aircraft with a ADSB system, but this will be available only to 1090 ES systems (such as the Lynx, but not a UAS system such as the wingtip system). I?m not certain if this will only be for aircraft used in air commerce, or all aircraft including general aviation.
Just thought Id post this topic to hear differing points of view and to raise a few hairs about the constant chipping away at our privacy... That being said, ADSB-out does make our airspace safer...
 
I have similar feelings.

I'm a big advocate of "look out the darned windows," but I, too, feel better with the belt and suspenders aspect of ADSB for traffic spotting.

As you say, I'm concerned that every Tom, Dick, and Harry will start reporting what they believe to be violations and we'll all be doing an FAA carpet dance to prove our innocence. I'm almost hoping that reporting by the general public will become so common/prolific that the FAA will have to develop a policy that essentially says they're going to ignore it unless it comes from some more formal source.

Of course this brings up the potential for creating an automated official source similar to what IFR traffic in controlled airspace deal with. I'd like to think that I'm a pretty law-abiding person, but I've already experienced a situation where someone thought a 1/2 mile and 500' separation in a VFR/uncontrolled environment was close enough to cause a collision.

I think the issue is real and I'm hoping the dues I pay to the various alphabet organizations will be used to help our leaders come to a reasonable solution.
 
I believe ADS-B is just another nail in coffin of GA. Since the feds have never been pro GA, and even worse to experimental, how long is it going to be when the feds start mailing violation letters and fines from ADS-B tracking. Next, pay to play. All computer generated, a bill tagged to your registration. All the infrastructure is there and ready to go. It's bad enough that the cost to install even the cheapest ADS-B systems are more than some small aircraft are worth, it pushes these pilots away from everywhere but uncontrolled airspace. This just grounds more and more GA planes. The feds already have radar, S-mode and TCAS for controlled airspace.. The only difference is ADS-B transmits everything about YOU. Where you departed, where you landed, exact speed during the entire flight, exact ALT, diversions, tail number, owner... Every flight is recorded and stored. I will shut off ADS-B out everywhere but "rule" space. This is red light camera's in the sky.
 
I believe ADS-B is just another nail in coffin of GA. Since the feds have never been pro GA, and even worse to experimental, how long is it going to be when the feds start mailing violation letters and fines from ADS-B tracking. Next, pay to play. All computer generated, a bill tagged to your registration. All the infrastructure is there and ready to go. It's bad enough that the cost to install even the cheapest ADS-B systems are more than some small aircraft are worth, it pushes these pilots away from everywhere but uncontrolled airspace. This just grounds more and more GA planes. The feds already have radar, S-mode and TCAS for controlled airspace.. The only difference is ADS-B transmits everything about YOU. Where you departed, where you landed, exact speed during the entire flight, exact ALT, diversions, tail number, owner... Every flight is recorded and stored. I will shut off ADS-B out everywhere but "rule" space. This is red light camera's in the sky.

In fairness, ADS-B does not transmit where are you departed, where are you landed, or the owner. Granted, it can be determined by somebody wishing for that information, but it certainly is not broadcasted.

I can’t say that I am a fan of shutting off your a ADS-B. In remote areas, I have picked up lots of low altitude traffic that I otherwise would not have seen without it.
 
ADSB

I have already heard of an instance where a pilot shut off his ADSB once outside transponder required airspace, and subsequently got a letter from our wonderful friends at the FAA. (So once you turn it on don?t turn it off in flight !)

On another note to your ?pay to play? remark, I was backcountry camping with my Cessna a few weeks ago at a remote strip, and we met a Australian couple that had to give up flying in their country because of all the governmental fees. They missed flying so much that they bought a Cessna 182 here in the states and vacation here once a year for a couple months just to enjoy our freedoms of flying. I?m afraid that we are slowly headed down this same slippery slope that they have experienced...
 
In fairness, ADS-B does not transmit where are you departed, where are you landed, or the owner. Granted, it can be determined by somebody wishing for that information, but it certainly is not broadcasted.

I can’t say that I am a fan of shutting off your a ADS-B. In remote areas, I have picked up lots of low altitude traffic that I otherwise would not have seen without it.

Not true. ADS-B transmits the position of your aircraft from the time it's on til the time is off. It transmits your take off roll, your lift off, your flight, touch down and taxi. And I pick up traffic all the time that does not have ADS-B out. ADS-B transmits your tail number and hex code.
 
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I have already heard of an instance where a pilot shut off his ADSB once outside transponder required airspace, and subsequently got a letter from our wonderful friends at the FAA. (So once you turn it on don?t turn it off in flight !)

Yes, "Teleporting".. You might get a letter. You have to turn it on from take off to a "Rule" space and back to the same airport. Nice ha.....
 
Not true. ADS-B transmits the position of your aircraft from the time it's on til the time is off. It transmits your take off roll, your lift off, your flight, touch down and taxi. And I pick up traffic all the time that does not have ADS-B out.

It transmits the data, yes. But the vast majority of the airports do not have ADS-B coverage on the ground.

You pick up traffic without ADS-B out when they’re in radar coverage. If they didn’t have radar coverage, you wouldn’t see them via ADS-B in, unless they had ADS-B out.
 
It transmits the data, yes. But the vast majority of the airports do not have ADS-B coverage on the ground.

You pick up traffic without ADS-B out when they?re in radar coverage. If they didn?t have radar coverage, you wouldn?t see them via ADS-B in, unless they had ADS-B out.

If you're not in ADS-B coverage you don't receive ADS-B.
 
If you're not in ADS-B coverage you don't receive ADS-B.

That is incorrect. An ADS-B IN equipped aircraft can receive 978 and 1090 ADS-B OUT broadcasts (traffic) regardless of whether it is within range of an ADS-B ground station.
 
That is incorrect. An ADS-B IN equipped aircraft can receive 978 and 1090 ADS-B OUT broadcasts (traffic) regardless of whether it is within range of an ADS-B ground station.

So then, someone explain to me why we need ADS-B? We have radar, we don't receive ADS-B where there is no ADS-B, we have Xponders with ALT encoders. It's been working just fine this way for 50 years.. So now, the feds need to know everything about our flights... Ya, nothing here to see.
 
So then, someone explain to me why we need ADS-B? We have radar, we don't receive ADS-B where there is no ADS-B, we have Xponders with ALT encoders. It's been working just fine this way for 50 years.. So now, the feds need to know everything about our flights... Ya, nothing here to see.

Take a trip to Alaska, or anywhere else with limited radar coverage, especially low altitude. You will then answer your own question. Suddenly, radar coverage isn?t necessary as long as you have ground ADS-B coverage.

I?m very pro-ADS-B for a variety of reasons. You?re against it, clearly. Different folks, different strokes...
 
Take a trip to Alaska, or anywhere else with limited radar coverage, especially low altitude. You will then answer your own question. Suddenly, radar coverage isn’t necessary as long as you have ground ADS-B coverage.

I’m very pro-ADS-B for a variety of reasons. You’re against it, clearly. Different folks, different strokes...

When you get your first letter or fine from the feds.. You let me know. Every right you give up is a right you'll never have again. Think about that. AND I think that anyone that wants ADS-B should have it, but it should not be forced on everyone.
 
So then, someone explain to me why we need ADS-B? We have radar, we don't receive ADS-B where there is no ADS-B, we have Xponders with ALT encoders. It's been working just fine this way for 50 years.. So now, the feds need to know everything about our flights... Ya, nothing here to see.

The answer to your question is: money. The FAA wants to save money, by passing on ATC costs to pilots. ADSB-in is just a bone thrown to pilots, to try to make it easier to swallow. The FAA?s long term plan is to require adsb everywhere, and then shut down very expensive radar. Long term, ground controllers at the largest airports will be fired, and ground control automated via adsb (Why do you think you have to broadcast your wingspan, and where your nose is wrt the gps antenna? Automated ground control.) It?s all about money.
 
BTW, if you have adsb-out, there is no option to turn it off. You are required by the current FARs to run it, whether in rule airspace or not.
 
adsb

the FAA is also testing space based adsb. They need it to track across vast spaces like the oceans. VOR's are also going to be leaving for GPS. Its about making things safer. It has been a great help for Houston center for helo traffic on the rigs. Our ground based radar systems are expensive and aging. FYI for ARTCC radar it is mosaic from 5 radar sites and ADSB.
 
Bad guys = radar.

ADSB needs a backup.

Radar is going nowhere.

I believe the plan is to leave in place radar which is co-shared with DOD, e.g., along the border. Don?t be surprised, though, if the FAA tries to get DOD to pick up the entire cost.
ADSB has a backup. You?re required to keep your transponder, and all the airlines have TCAS - they ping transponders for collision avoidance. For the rest of us, non-airline types ? well, the faa really doesn?t care.
 
I believe the plan is to leave in place radar which is co-shared with DOD, e.g., along the border. Don’t be surprised, though, if the FAA tries to get DOD to pick up the entire cost.
Yes. But those long range search radars are owned and completely funded by the DOD, not the FAA. The FAA just has access and uses that DOD radar data. The DOD is not interested in data from the FAA owned and funded approach radars. They serve no long distance air defense purposes and military fighter aircraft carry their own radars for short distance air defense purposes.

:cool:
 
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Drones.

That?s why ads-b. FAA probably anticipating a big increase in drone traffic. Lots of traffic without eyeballs. They need a way more precise system than radar. I?m sure drones flying above say 200 ft would need ads-b but I may be wrong.
I am usually suspicious kinda guy when it comes to govt good intentions but in this case I believe their motivations are not so much punitive.
 
Never heard that. Can you cite the section that requires this?

14CFR §91.225 (f)

"(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless—

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions."


:cool:
 
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?91.225 "Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out equipment and use."

"(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless?

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions."​

Well, I guess that answers that. I don?t think that is universally understood.
 
I would think there would be an emergency exception.

"I needed to shed all electrical loads except for the engine".........
 
I would think there would be an emergency exception.

"I needed to shed all electrical loads except for the engine".........

Here you go...


? 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
 
Yes. ADS-B equipped aircraft must have the equipment powered on an operating any time the aircraft is operated. Regardless of location. Rule airspace. Non rule airspace. Ground run ups. In the middle of Montana taxiing your Skywagon on the ground from the bunk house to the barn. If you have the equipment, it must be on and operating at all times the aircraft is operated. If you ever switch it off (or loose your electrical system) you will get a nastygram from a computer in OKC. So make sure your mechanic knows he needs to have the system on when doing maintenance checks on the engine. Onerous. Orwellian. But they did it while we stood by playing the fiddle.
 
I was told by uAvionics the same thing about ADS-B out equipped aircraft must use it on all flights but they can easily be turned off either by the app or the power. Turning it off with the app allows the IN to still work ( EX: EchoUAT ). I don't see how the feds could know if you turned it off before your flight and returned to your airport ( non rule space ). Has anyone looked into formation and ADS-B? You only use one Xponder in formation, how do you think ATC would like 8 ADS-B transmitters 20 feet apart.
 
Well, I guess that answers that. I don?t think that is universally understood.

Every time an ADS-B thread comes up, it becomes immediately apparent how few people understand (a) how ADS-B works, and (b) what the regulations are surrounding ADS-B.
 
Every time an ADS-B thread comes up, it becomes immediately apparent how few people understand (a) how ADS-B works, and (b) what the regulations are surrounding ADS-B.

+1 Just try to explain why your ?out? data tells the world that you are listening to adsb-in on zero, one, or two frequencies, and watch people?s eyes glaze over.
 
Concerned about privacy?

Concerned about privacy? Install UAT. Turn on anonymous mode and go flying. If you fly without needing to talk to ATC, stay in anonymous mode and forget about it. That solution is available now. Perhaps there will soon be private icao codes for ES transponders and those so equipped will have an option to not reveal their identity to the world.
 
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