Need estimate of time to replace canopy RV-4

I need to give my insurance adjuster an estimate of now many hours of labor are required to replace a canopy on an RV-4. A new Todd's canopy, new frame and skirts. Could any of you give me your best guess.

FYI: I am going to design & install a canopy latch warning system. I hope I have flown in my last open cockpit RV-4.

RV-4 canopy

Tommy-look on some builder logs and you should get a great estimate to submit to the insurance company.

tturner said:

FYI: I am going to design & install a canopy latch warning system. I hope I have flown in my last open cockpit RV-4.

Click to expand...

So you gonna tell us a little story??

Afraid I did not build my 4 so can't help with canopy estimate...

Pure educated guess based on having done it twice.

I'd say three weeks straight full-time if you have everything in one place, the facility to do everything (including paint), the skills earned from having done it before, etc.

So three weeks - 120 hours.

Now if you have a learning curve, want to experiement with improvements, are looking for show plane quality, etc.

Triple the estimate....

Richard: Thanks for the estimate, that is in line with what I guessed.

Dave: So you want the gory details!!

I have about 200 hours on the aircraft and have gotten real comfortable not using a check list ( mistake # 1 ). My normal procedure is I close the canopy and do not remove my hand form the handle until it is latched. I was at a fly-in and just as I was closing the canopy I saw some people starting to walk down the ramp. I knew they would pass in front of me so I thought maybe I should leave the canopy open until they pass. The canopy was closed and I think I did not latch it. I back taxied down the grass strip turned around and took off. Normal takeoff and climb out. At about 1000' AGL I leveled off, reduced power and then the canopy blew. It was an instantaneous event, the g-meter logged a -1 and +3 gyration. I slowed down to 55 knots verified all controls were working, visually checked the tail best I could and flew about 20 miles back to my home field. No injuries except for a small scratch on left arm. My garmin 396 had the xm and gps antenna on the canopy which caused it to be jerked out of the snap in mount and left with the canopy. I have a few dents and scrapes on the aft fuselage, horz & vert stabilizer, no structural damage. The ball joint for the canopy attach strut pulled free where it attached to the roll bar. There was also a small hole in the right flap. The canopy passed over the left horz stabilizer. There was about a 6" piece of the canopy attach hinge left on the fuselage but the rest sheared the attach rivets as it is designed. As I stated earlier I will have a canopy latch warning system before it flies again.

Wow, sorry to hear about that Tommy. Glad you still flew the aircraft and are safe. I'm really interested in how the flap managed to get a hole in it from the incident.

You have the unpainted RV-4 at FFC in the box hangar with the Baron right? I usually park my yellow RV-4 in front of your hangar when I make a run to ACS.

Wow , super scary ! Just wondering if you have the safety latch as well . My newly purchased 4 has the type that catches the window sill on the way up and provides a way to keep the canopy open a crack for cooling on the ground . I'm wondering if it's up to the task to prevent what happened to you?

Marc

Sid: I am not sure what caused the hole in the flap. It was about 1/2" diameter and mid span. It may have been the 396 as there is also a dent in the leading edge of the right horz stab.

Marc: I did not have the safety latch installed.

tturner said:

Sid: I am not sure what caused the hole in the flap. It was about 1/2" diameter and mid span. It may have been the 396 as there is also a dent in the leading edge of the right horz stab.

Marc: I did not have the safety latch installed.

Click to expand...

I know it may sound crazy, but have you attempted to find your canopy?

I know of one that departed a 4 at altitude. Because of the type of terrain it landed on (I don't know the specifics) the entire canopy only required very minor repairs to re-install it on the airplane. I think it was only very slightly scratched, that portion of the repair was done with a scratch repair kit.

This may have been possible because the shape slows the decent rate and makes it fall top down.

Scott

I flew over the area in a J-3 and did not see it. The area where it fell is a mixture of pine forest and farm fields.

Estimate

I built an RV-4 years ago and spent considerable amount of time on the canopy. A few years ago I was asked by a local FBO how much I would charge (labor only) to replace a severely cracked RV-4 and I told them it would cost $5000 without exterior painting.

Unfortunately my builder log from 1984 didn't capture the canopy hours.

Latch Reminder

Geez Tommy, that's a tough break. Glad to hear the insurance is gonna fix it. Out of all the work to build the -4, I think the canopy was the one thing I prayed I never had to redo.

Here's a link to a mod I did to help prevent such a mishap.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=38959&highlight=canopy+knob+green

Steve

I like your idea of adding the red and green dots to the handle. I may do that in addition to a warning light.

Maybe you should just go by Gus..........


Gus Grissom: I did NOT do anything wrong. The hatch just BLEW. It was a GLITCH. It was a- a TECHNICAL MALFUNCTION. Why in **** won't anyone believe me?



.

Tommy,

Sorry to hear about your lid! Cudos on the safe recovery after the fact.

In the mighty F-4 (a jet with a history of losing canopies in flight), the maintenance folks used to paint a stripe on the canopy actuator rod that would line up with with another line painted on a small piece of sheet metal if the canopy was latched...you had to stick your head under the canopy rail to see it, but you simply got in the habit of doing that every time you closed the lid (the litany was "canopy's down, stripes aligned").

You could accomplish the same thing in the RV-4 with a bit of electrical tape: two pieces of tape on the skirt and one on the rod--if the stripes are aligned, the pins are engaged.

I didn't build our plane, but the original builder rigged the canopy latch so it defaults to the locked position, not open. This is a bit annoying insofar as you have to physically hold the handle forward to lower (and open) the lid to keep the pins from damaging the instrument panel and turtle deck, but if the lid goes down, the pins are spring-loaded to engage. I haven't studied the drawings to determine if this built according to plans or a modification, but I like the thinking behind the design.

Best of luck!

Vac

Vac

Your idea of the stripes is another good suggestion. The latch design does have a spring to force it toward the latched position. All the RV-4's that I have seen have too much friction in the mechanism and or the spring is too weak. I always thought the spring was to keep vibration from opening the latch. We could put a pin on the key ring with the ignition key and use the pin to hold the latch mechanism in the open position. Then we could add a stronger spring like yours to always force the latch closed. This would not work for the folks that also have a latch position for partial open on the ground also would prevent you from latching from the outside without removing the pin.

flying canopy

Thanks Tommy, I thought it would make a great educational read and was not disappointed! My condolences but the important thing is ..... you know.
Good luck at getting everything shipshape ASAP.
A "canopy latch" story was one of the first that I heard after obtaining my 4 and it sounded real exciting! In this case the individual was able to grab the handle and hang on while doing everything with his right hand. Very tight circuit and landing.

One other question... how was it, flying several miles without a canopy? Landing? Sort of like riding a motorcycle with no face shield?

PS Being an "airline type" ,I am not comfortable without my checklist... sometimes I get laughed at

Sure is windy today!

TT,

I was blessed to put nearly 1400 hours on my RV4 from 1996 till 2007 and never "blew my top". The F-16 has a unique safety catch that won't allow you to "flip the switch" without first pulling up a large handle that gives you lots of warnings and depressurizes the cockpit! With that simplicity in mind I designed my RV-4's safety catch. It not only helped the canopy stay open on the ground for taxi, but secured it once inflight. I have attached the thread that we covered this issue on several years ago...

Smokey
HR2

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=11566&highlight=rv4+canopy+latch

Dave
I wish I had the chance to grab the canopy, mine seemed more like an explosion when it departed. I flew about 20 miles and my eyes did water a lot but they felt fine once I landed. I had the engine set for about 1600 RPM's and 1/4 flaps which gave me about 55 knots. I lost my headset but found it after a few minutes hung on the roll bar but it was too windy to but it back on.

Smokey
I looked at your latch. Do you have more pictures or plans? I have ordered the parts to build a flashing red indicator and sensors to denote canopy not latched.

Safety Switch no longer needed...for you Tommy.

I feel for you Tommy and have been there. Somewhat similar story, ready to takeoff and the local dummy ran up to tell me some inane nonsense. I shut down completely and was disturbed by the experience. Started over; but failed to secure the canopy. Just as I rotated it blew off as though it had explosive bolts. Completely cleared the aircraft. What a shock to be hit by that BLAST!!! Man, everything on my head went flying, including my upper lip blinding me as it went over my forehead!! Good Grief, is difficult for one to force of the wind until it is experienced.

The side hinge worked just as Van designed and the canopy cleared the plane with no hits. I was able to abort the takeoff and return OK. Found the canopy all busted to bits and I just ordered another from Van.

This was back in April of 1995...Oh, I remember it well. I hired Chuck Brush, a very experienced builder to help me. I took off from work and Chuck and I worked 10 to 12 hour days for 2 solid weeks. Not too much beer consumed in evenings either. Put it on, take it off, put it on, take it off...getting it to fit, yada yada and so forth ad nauseum. Chuck would say, building and fitting the canopy is 25% of the airplane. That may be a bit of exagerration; but it feels like it at the time. At the end of two weeks it was on, painted and beautiful. Figure 10 hrs/day for two guys and that is 280 hours. 12 hrs/day works out to 336. There were some 14 hour days on weekends. Somewhere in there is what it took us and we humped it. Better builders may take less time, I don't know; but that is my first hand experience with the situation you describe.

On the safety switch, Chuck Brush wanted to install one and I refused. There was a secondary latch to press. After that experience, my left hand would automatically go to that latch about every 10 seconds for the next 100 hours of flying. As time went on, the time lapse between checking the latch finally evolved to about 45 seconds. I pressed it so much and so often, my left thumb still bears the calus. On a long cross country, I would bandage my thumb to keep it from bleeding. No Joke!!!

I'm telling you Tommy, a safety switch may be needed for someone else flying your -4; but YOU will never ever ever forget to latch your canopy!!! Save yourself some time and forget the safety switch....unless it is a sales item. There may be a lot of things I might fail to do in an RV-4; but securing the canopy prior to takeoff is NOT one of them!!!!!

Good luck and best regards,

Deal Fair
N34CB (RV-4)
George West, TX (8T6)

Latch Key Kids...

TT,
I'll try to find more pictures, contact me off-line and I'll give you the details on making it. It's dual purpose nature (cool air on ground, canopy protection inflight) makes it a no brainer.

It's very simple, like me

Smokey
HR2

Hey Smokey,
If you could post the details, I would like to see them too!

Me TWO!!

Smokey,
If you have time, please post info on your latch. I grabbed my canopy before it flew away.....lucky!!!!

Deal

You are right I will never forget to latch it again. All the parts will be in tomorrow so I will let you know how long it takes. I have not done a canopy before. When I bought the a/c is was about 2 weeks from being flyable. I am going to use the sikaflex adhesive instead of rivets.

Just to add to the other poster on recovering the canopy.

The same thing happened to a 4 in Western Australia and the canopy was found with out a scratch. Worth asking about. Offer the local kids a reward ?

FWIW

New canopy installed

After I received all the parts it has taken me 13 days and 95 hours to install the new canopy ( still need to finish the front filet as currently it is 600 mph tape ). I started out planning to use the Siktaflex adhesive but changed my mind and used rivets. May still use the Sitkaflex for the front filet. I was very please with how well the side skirts worked out. I really like the Todd's canopy.
I still plan on adding a secondary latch similar to the one Smokey has. I also built a very simple brace for holding the canopy when it is open.

http://web.me.com/tommyturner/Site/RV-4_Canopy.html