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"Borrowing" APRS

yooper

Active Member
My father-in-law has a portable APRS transmitter and is a Ham. Is it legal for me to borrow his APRS transmitter and do some flight tests with it, even though he would probably not be flying with? Is that a gray area of the regs, or does the licensed radio operator have to be on hand whenever you're transmitting?

Thanks,

Tim D-T
 
Sorry.....

No gray area about it. It's illegal for you to operate the APRS if you're not a licensed HAM operator. You and you're father-in-law could be subject to fines and sanctions by the FCC.
 
Go for it!

No gray area about it. It's illegal for you to operate the APRS if you're not a licensed HAM operator. You and you're father-in-law could be subject to fines and sanctions by the FCC.

Don't agree. What about truck fleet operators who have a license and outfit each of their trucks with a APRS? As long as the licensed operator has operational control of the unit I see no problem. This is my interpretation and the "lawyers" out there may feel differently. In any case, I have never seen a court docket crammed with amateur radio licenense violation cases.
 
I interpret it as 'no'....and questions from the practice test to support my position

I'm studying this now, so had the practice test (and just answers) link handy: http://n4maa.us/BobTech.htm


Relevent questions that lead me to believe the answer is no:

Why are unlicensed persons in your family not allowed to transmit on your amateur station if you are not there?
They must be licensed before they are allowed to be control operators

What is required before you can control an amateur station in the US?
You must be named in the FCC amateur license database, or be an alien with reciprocal operating authorization

How soon may you transmit after passing the required examination elements for your first amateur radio license?
As soon as your license grant appears in the FCC's ULS database


Having read all this, would I loan it to my daughter to follow her while she drives around town those first few times? I refuse to answer that on the grounds it might....<g>.
 
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Must be licensed

Ron

The fleet operators are most likely not working with a frequency in the amatuer bands. If they are, then they're not legal either.

The operator must be licensed.
 
The operator can operate a remote device. Could the situation here be considered a remote operation? So what we happen to have a pilot in there too. ;)
 
No gray area about it. It's illegal for you to operate the APRS if you're not a licensed HAM operator. You and you're father-in-law could be subject to fines and sanctions by the FCC.

This doesn't sound quite right to me either. If your father-in-law chooses to put his aprs in your plane for a period of time, I see no problem with it. In my mind he is still the "operator" because the pertinent content of the automatic transmissions are configured by him. The only thing not under his direct control are the specific gps coordinates that are transmitted, but then these would not be under his precise control even if the unit was sitting in his own vehicle. I don't see you as the operator since you are not actively engaged in the content of the transmission.

What if I want to use my aprs to monitor my kid's driving habits, as DR suggests? In my mind I'm still the operator of the unit.

I'd like to hear more input on this topic, as I am no expert and may be totally wrong here. These are just my intuitive feelings. Take them as such.
 
Legality of APRS

As you might expect, this is a question that has arisen many times about APRS. Some old hams have even taken the position that APRS is absolutely forbidden to use in the ham radio service at all ( they are generally insane...)

The FCC rules require the operator of a station to have a "Control Operator". The operator need not be physically present at the location of the transmitter, but he must remain in control of the station. These terms are not exhaustively defined, but there is no question in the FCC's mind, that a tracking transmitter on a hunting dog does not require the dog to have a license, only that the licensee have control ( the ability to turn on and turn off) the tracker. The same goes for balloons, satellites, etc. Repeater operators don't have to camp out on the mountaintop to be legal.

I have people fly test my gear in various ways all the time, with my call sign, and I remain the control operator, since the device is switched on (or "caused" to be switched on by me.

The way you phrased your question makes it appear that you basically want to borrow a ham license, which would not be permissible or legal. If the Control Operator places a tracker in your aircraft and turns it on, that's okay. If he give you a tracker and under his guidance you turn it on, and under his direction you turn it off, that's semi-okay too but pushing the envelope. (Hams without hands do this all the time, and I have never seen one doing the Perp-roll in his wheelchair out of Federal Court for unlawful operation.

Reading part 97 in its entirety can help make this clear, but it may also make your head explode, since you will have to differentiate between Stations, remotely controlled stations, Telemetry stations, Beacon Stations, etc. The APRS Wiki has done a good job of explaining the Control Operator situation and I have spoken with past head of enforcement for the FCC to validate the positions therein:

http://info.aprs.net/index.php/ControlOperator

Allen
VHS
(AE class and FCC GROL with RADAR Endorsement)
 
You're a nobody...

You are an unlicensed nobody in the eyes of the FCC.

Your father-in-law is the HAM, and he needs to be the one deciding that he's operating his license according to the regs.

Still, It's interesting to see the comments and interpretations of the regs. I have a newbie tech license, and my initial thought was that this would amount to a violation.

Don, aka "K0OLL"
 
Interesting read in legalese :). From carpenter's point of view I've always thought if it's written on the license

aprslicense-1-1.jpg


it means what it says.
 
You will find that HAM's are protective of their turf. The way it appears to me is: No license, KEEP OUT!!!

If General Aviation folks had half the zeal that these guys do, we would'nt have much of an issue with the lawmakers and Federal Agencies...
 
Turf wars

You can say protective of their turf or you can say self policing. If you watch over your own responsibilities and keep everyone playing by the rules, then it's a lot less likely that someone else will want to write more rules. Lots of things in this country were designed that way and if works well if you indeed play by the rules. If you don't want to get the HAM license go buy a Spot tracker.
 
I have placed a tracker in a teenagers car. I put it there. Im in control. Driver is clueless.

I have not violated the regs by not being in the car when its running.

I would expect that also if I place one in any vehicle, car, train, plane or boat, Im good to go. Who is driving/pioting it is of no relevance. Who owns it is of no relevance. Control is the operative word.

Im no lawyer and I know nothing about case law in this matter.
Im just a simple licensed tech who read the regs and interpreted the language of control operator.

Now, lets take it to an extreme. What if I installed a million of these as a free service for my friends all around the country?

hmmm. Would my argument hold up? Beats me. Seems it might. If I can do one, why not a million?
 
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Now, lets take it to an extreme. What if I installed a million of these as a free service for my friends all around the country?

hmmm. Would my argument hold up? Beats me. Seems it might. If I can do one, why not a million?

NOW we're talking about frequency abuse................ ;)
 
If you need a quote on a million units, give me a call......

Placing an active tracker for the purposes of surveillance without the targets' knowledge may be a violation of 10 US Code, Title 18 as I recall.

Allen
VHS
 
Let's review Part 97

Lets start with relevant definitions (LONG POST ALERT ):

?97.3 Definitions.

(a) The definitions of terms used in Part 97 are:

(1) Amateur operator. A person named in an amateur operator/primary license station grant on the ULS consolidated licensee database to be the control operator of an amateur station.

(6) Automatic control. The use of devices and procedures for control of a station when it is transmitting so that compliance with the FCC Rules is achieved without the control operator being present at a control point.

(9) Beacon. An amateur station transmitting communications for the purposes of observation of propagation and reception or other related experimental activities.

(13) Control operator. An amateur operator designated by the licensee of a station to be responsible for the transmissions from that station to assure compliance with the FCC Rules.

(14) Control point. The location at which the control operator function is performed.

(38) Remote control. The use of a control operator who indirectly manipulates the operating adjustments in the station through a control link to achieve compliance with the FCC Rules.

?97.5 Station license grant required.

(a) The station apparatus must be under the physical control of a person named in an amateur station license grant on the ULS consolidated license database or a person authorized for alien reciprocal operation by ?97.107 of this part, before the station may transmit on any amateur service frequency from any place that is:

(1) Within 50 km of the Earth's surface and at a place where the amateur service is regulated by the FCC;

(2) Within 50 km of the Earth's surface and aboard any vessel or craft that is documented or registered in the United States; or

(3) More than 50 km above the Earth's surface aboard any craft that is documented or registered in the United States.

Emphasis mine. Key phrase is physical control. This can be accomplished by sitting at the controls, or via remote control.

?97.7 Control operation required.

When transmitting, each amateur station must have a control operator. The control operator must be a person:

(a) For whom an amateur operator/primary station license grant appears on the ULS consolidated licensee database, or

(b) Who is authorized for alien reciprocal operation by ?97.107 of this part

This states that the control operator must be a licensed amateur.

?97.105 Control operator duties.

(a) The control operator must ensure the immediate proper operation of the station, regardless of the type of control.

(b) A station may only be operated in the manner and to the extent permitted by the privileges authorized for the class of operator license held by the control operator.

I don't see how immediate proper operation can be ensured without an operator present or a remote control link active. Programming at either end of flight doesn't count -- nothing is foolproof.

?97.109 Station control.

(a) Each amateur station must have at least one control point.

(b) When a station is being locally controlled, the control operator must be at the control point. Any station may be locally controlled.

(c) When a station is being remotely controlled, the control operator must be at the control point. Any station may be remotely controlled.

(d) When a station is being automatically controlled, the control operator need not be at the control point. Only stations specifically designated elsewhere in this Part may be automatically controlled. Automatic control must cease upon notification by a District Director that the station is transmitting improperly or causing harmful interference to other stations. Automatic control must not be resumed without prior approval of the District Director.

(e) No station may be automatically controlled while transmitting third party communications, except a station transmitting a RTTY or data emission. All messages that are retransmitted must originate at a station that is being locally or remotely controlled.

There's some hope for an exemption from control requirements (paragraph d)... lets find out:

?97.221 Automatically controlled digital station.
(a) This rule section does not apply to an auxiliary station, a beacon station, a repeater station, an earth station, a space station, or a space telecommand station.

(b) A station may be automatically controlled while transmitting a RTTY or data emission on the 6 m or shorter wavelength bands, and on the 28.120-28.189 MHz, 24.925-24.930 MHz, 21.090-21.100 MHz, 18.105- 18.110 MHz, 14.0950-14.0995 MHz, 14.1005-14.112 MHz, 10.140-10.150 MHz, 7.100-7.105 MHz, or 3.585-3.600 MHz segments.

(c) A station may be automatically controlled while transmitting a RTTY or data emission on any other frequency authorized for such emission types provided that:

(1) The station is responding to interrogation by a station under local or remote control; and

(2) No transmission from the automatically controlled station occupies a bandwidth of more than 500 Hz.

Doh! We're not responding to interrogation, and, I think we're over 500 Hz BW.

Ok, what are the remote control requirements??
?97.213 Telecommand of an amateur station.
An amateur station on or within 50 km of the Earth's surface may be under telecommand where:

(a) There is a radio or wireline control link between the control point and the station sufficient for the control operator to perform his/her duties. If radio, the control link must use an auxiliary station. A control link using a fiber optic cable or another telecommunication service is considered wireline.

(b) Provisions are incorporated to limit transmission by the station to a period of no more than 3 minutes in the event of malfunction in the control link.

(c) The station is protected against making, willfully or negligently, unauthorized transmissions.

(d) A photocopy of the station license and a label with the name, address, and telephone number of the station licensee and at least one designated control operator is posted in a conspicuous place at the station location.

Nope! Need a control link.

So... I don't think its legal to install it in a vehicle with no licensed hams present. If I missed anything, by all means speak up!! :confused::D

73 de AE5KZ
 
I have placed a tracker in a teenagers car. I put it there. Im in control.

Kahuna, you are not in control, since you cannot ensure immediate proper operation of the station. (at least that's my interpretation of the rules)

EDIT: See Paul's post a few down... looks like it might be ok!
 
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Don't agree. What about truck fleet operators who have a license and outfit each of their trucks with a APRS? As long as the licensed operator has operational control of the unit I see no problem. This is my interpretation and the "lawyers" out there may feel differently. In any case, I have never seen a court docket crammed with amateur radio licenense violation cases.

This would be commercial use of amateur radio and is strictly forbidden (that's assuming its APRS and not GSM / EDGE / commercial satellite).

Enforcement probably rarely goes to court... usually its just a bunch of letters written by lawyers. If you are bored and/or easily amused, here's the most recent actions: http://www.fcc.gov/eb/AmateurActions/Welcome.html
 
On the other hand, you are "transmitting a RTTY or data emission on the 6 m or shorter wavelength bands" (?97.221(b)).

--Paul

AH HAH!! You caught what I missed... I thought there was an "and" there, and not an or...

So, it looks more promising!
 
Testing

My initial question wasn't well-phrased. I meant to say my father-in-law is a Ham and he wants to install an APRS tracking device for some flights by our aircraft. He is interested in APRS and wants to try it at aircraft speeds and altitudes, versus just on his moped around town. I would like to let him put it in the plane if he wants to . . .

TDT
 
My initial question wasn't well-phrased. I meant to say my father-in-law is a Ham and he wants to install an APRS tracking device for some flights by our aircraft. He is interested in APRS and wants to try it at aircraft speeds and altitudes, versus just on his moped around town. I would like to let him put it in the plane if he wants to . . .

TDT

Right... we were debating whether he had to be in control (either on board or remotely) while the tracker was operating. I think I'm just about convinced now that he does not have to be present.
 
Now, lets take it to an extreme. What if I installed a million of these as a free service for my friends all around the country?

hmmm. Would my argument hold up? Beats me. Seems it might. If I can do one, why not a million?

It looks as though it would be covered under automatic transmission, and thus would be ok. BUT, I think you're accepting responsibility for proper operation since each station is now transmitting your callsign.
 
It looks as though it would be covered under automatic transmission, and thus would be ok. BUT, I think you're accepting responsibility for proper operation since each station is now transmitting your callsign.

Yep I completely agree. I just did not want folks to get caught up on items like: vehicle ownership, type, install numbers, driver/piot etc. None of those are relevant.
 
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