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Info on RV-12 S-LSA Certification

MartySantic

Well Known Member
Copied this from an e-mail that I received.

What is the status of progress towards FAA approval of the RV12 as a S-LSA?

Response from Van's A/C

Well under way. We are not allowed to submit any part of the paperwork for S-LSA approval until we have the entire package complete which requires that we have all of the subkits in final configuration...including avionics and firewall forward packages. We are getting close on these and will be submitting the completed package to the FAA just as soon as we have it all finalized and in good order.
You may have heard that the FAA recently started doing audits on some of the existing S-LSA mfgs out there. Overall grade...D! The FAA has allowed S-LSA mfgs to essentially self-approve by submitting an affidavit stating that they have accomplished all of the flight test, manual, maintenance program, QA requirements, etc. The FAA accepted the affidavit as proof that the testing and documentation was complete...apparently not the case with some S-LSA mfgs.

Bottom line, when Van's submits the package for S-LSA certification for the RV-12, we expect it will become the 'gold-standard' for S-LSA certification. Our engineering crew has been very thorough and we expect no 'bumps' once it is submitted. We appreciate your patience and are working hard to finalize the RV-12 project.

Thanks, scott at van's
 
Thanks for the input, Marty. I just put in my order for the finish kit- a bit of sticker shock, that was! I called VANS yesterday after I got the E-mail about it's availability, and Ann said send the order now, I didn't need to wait until March 2nd. We'll see how it turns out this time- I did that with the empannage kit and got it after the guys who waited until the order date. Steve
 
THANKS MARTY !

Very good information. I guess we have put our faith in a sound company for sure. Waiting for finish kit to arrive.

John Bender
 
Thanks Marty, this is good information to have. There may be flyable 12's at the same time as final approval arrives.
 
There may be flyable 12's at the same time as final approval arrives.

:D
Maybe, but keep in mind something that veteran RV builders already know. All of the final details (engine installation, avionics, finish details) take a large portion of the total construction time.
With a panel/avionics kit and engine/firewall fwd kit still to go after the finish kit, RV-12 builders still have a lot of stuff to do before they are done.

I am curious... RV-12 builders that have completed the first three kits and are waiting for the finish kit...what is your total work hours to this point?
 
Total hours for first three kits...

I have just over 450 hours in the first three kits...120 in the wings including LED in-wing landing lights and LED position and strobes on the wing tips. The fuselage was 255 hours and was certainly the most challenging. I spent 75 hours on the empennage with its fabrication and installing LED position and strobe on the vertical stabilizer. When I build my next RV-12 I'll build it fuselage, empennage, and then wings...lol...am hoping to have the Dynon autopilot capability next time around (while building).:D If it flies as well as I expect it will I want to have one for play and one to instruct in someday...

Jay Sluiter/Carrie Sluiter
Albany, OR
N124CS reserved
 
I have just over 450 hours in the first three kits...120 in the wings including LED in-wing landing lights and LED position and strobes on the wing tips. The fuselage was 255 hours and was certainly the most challenging. I spent 75 hours on the empennage with its fabrication and installing LED position and strobe on the vertical stabilizer. When I build my next RV-12 I'll build it fuselage, empennage, and then wings...lol...am hoping to have the Dynon autopilot capability next time around (while building).:D If it flies as well as I expect it will I want to have one for play and one to instruct in someday...

Jay Sluiter/Carrie Sluiter
Albany, OR
N124CS reserved

Jay,

I had heard, and I may be wrong, that one cannot instruct in (and charge $) an experimental airplane. I have heard of some people charging $125.00 just for the instruction with the airplane being free, but the FAA does not seem to like that. Any input would be appreciated as I would love to tech in a 12.
 
Jay,

I had heard, and I may be wrong, that one cannot instruct in (and charge $) an experimental airplane. I have heard of some people charging $125.00 just for the instruction with the airplane being free, but the FAA does not seem to like that. Any input would be appreciated as I would love to tech in a 12.

The airplane has to be registered for training triggering the 100 hour inspections. I don't think offering the plane for free changes that. A local at our airport just bought an EAB and could not change the registration for training. He was told it was to close to the end of the exemption. I think the amount you charge (even down to zero) is independent to the need for the proper registration.
 
time so far

Scott,
I spent 129 hrs on tail including tailcone.
While I was repeatedly installing and removing tailcone/ stab/ rudder, I thought it was nice for Vans to give us a taste of fiberglass frustration in the first kit.
Wings, 180 hrs
Fuse, 220 hours,with 29-05 to 29-07 to go
(I'm waiting to mount f-1202b since my hyd brake elbows were backordered)

I am really happy with the precision of the kit. The holes we builders drill are never as orthogonal as the factory holes.

It was a bit of sticker stock on the finish kit, untill I looked back and our fuse, without landing gear, was $1700 cheaper than a RV-9A. Adding that back in for the brakes wheels and landing gear, and the $1000 seats, pretty well makes up the difference .
 
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The airplane has to be registered for training triggering the 100 hour inspections. I don't think offering the plane for free changes that. A local at our airport just bought an EAB and could not change the registration for training. He was told it was to close to the end of the exemption. I think the amount you charge (even down to zero) is independent to the need for the proper registration.
An EAB was never eligible for the "training" issue. And only the grandfathered E-LSAs were eligible, and then they may be used for training only until 1/31/2010. At some point before the 8130-6 expires, they will have to be re-certified for "non-commercial use.
 
Building times

:D
Maybe, but keep in mind something that veteran RV builders already know. All of the final details (engine installation, avionics, finish details) take a large portion of the total construction time.
With a panel/avionics kit and engine/firewall fwd kit still to go after the finish kit, RV-12 builders still have a lot of stuff to do before they are done.

I am curious... RV-12 builders that have completed the first three kits and are waiting for the finish kit...what is your total work hours to this point?

I just finished painting the fuselage interior and instrument panel and my times for the kits are as follows. Wing and Flapperon kit 130 hours, Tail kit 74 hours, and Fuselage kit 147 hours for a total time to date of 351 hours. If I build another one, I could probably do it in about ten percent less time.

I would be willing to build one for anyone who does not have the time. Send me a private message if you are interested.
 
Waiver

An EAB was never eligible for the "training" issue. And only the grandfathered E-LSAs were eligible, and then they may be used for training only until 1/31/2010. At some point before the 8130-6 expires, they will have to be re-certified for "non-commercial use.

Mel,

I was referring to the training waiver that Alex D, Mike S and a few others have. That allows training in a AB-E.
 
Sorry for the confusion.

I was referring to the post by F1 MAC who stated that the aircraft had to be registered for training. The waiver has nothing to do with registration.
 
I was referring to the post by F1 MAC who stated that the aircraft had to be registered for training. The waiver has nothing to do with registration.

My point was you could not just charge zero for the plane and more for instruction without the proper paperwork.

Mel, Here is a clip from a EAA article. Click the link below to FAR91.319. Does this mean our FSDO can grant a waiver even after 2010? What is your take? See paragraph H.

from eaa article

"The exemption was developed in partnership with the EAA Safety Programs office, the National Association of Flight Instructors (NAFI), the Small Aircraft Manufacturers Association (SAMA), the FAA and the NTSB. Even though this exemption has ended, the historic safety partnership continues, thanks to the Certification of Aircraft and Airmen for the Operation of Light-Sport Aircraft (Sport Pilot) rule issued on September 1, 2004. A new regulation within the rule, FAR 91.319(h), replaces the exemption and places responsibility of administering this process with FAA Flight Standards District Offices (FSDOs). "


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.4.7.10&idno=14
 
You may have a point.

21.191(h) does indeed say that the FAA may issue a letter of deviation for experimental aircraft. However this paragraph was intended to address experimental amateur-builts. I doubt very seriously that any office would issue this letter to an E-LSA since E-LSAs were given a definite expiration date of 1/31/2010.
Also these LOD are intended for transition training whereas the E-LSA training authority is for primary training.
 
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