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Metal in Oil Filter

fl9500

Active Member
Hi,
after my last Oil-change, I found more than normal? magnetic metal in my Oil Filter. Lycoming O360, ~1200 Hours. ~7month and 40hours after last Oilchange.
For the first time I used CAMGUARD.

I now want to fly it for a few hours and then check again.

Any tips what to do next ?

Achim

filter.jpg

magnet2.jpg
 
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Put your magnet in a plastic bag next time so you can easily separate the metal from the magnet. The magnet works fine through a thin layer of plastic. Typically you want to measure how much metal is there and start trending it, although it appears to be more than enough to be concerned and it is a “new” event, also concerning.
 
Most logical source of this in an infrequently flown Lycoming would be the lifters.
 
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Pull a cylinder on each side and inspect the cam now before the metal has embedded in your piston skirts and ruined the jugs. Hopefully you have caught it in time. I just rebuilt my engine myself with new jugs. Cost me $20k, but my crank, cam and lifters all red tagged. I bet you have a few lifter that look like this.
07-F9-EBE3-FCE6-48-E2-8-A37-3-C88-EE7-C4946.jpg
 
Tear down

Sorry, I do not know of anything benign that generates that much ferrous metal between oil changes. My guess: lifters/cam/oil pump gears....but nothing that is good or getting better. Good news: engines are easy to disassemble and re-assemble....had a similar event in 1994 (cam/lifters), and flying behind the re-build now...best, John
 
My thoughts are to ground the aircraft until the source and remedy is determined. That is way, way to much steel in the filter from one oil change interval to ignore or to fly and see. Granted it looks as though it might be a cam lobe, tappet face spalling but maybe not. It's sizable STEEL! not fine rust scraped off something. Steel chips of that size means, if it isn't a cam lobe, something very structural to the engine or its operation is wearing and shedding metal at a very, very abnormal rate. Trust me, its not going to go away and it will increase in severity the more you operate the engine. If it is a cam lobe, operating the engine further will only increase the risk of unrepairable damage to the crankshaft, pistons, oil pump etc. Time to ground that aircraft before you do more damage to the engine and possibly to your self or your aircraft. There is no upside to continue operating the engine.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
 
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Please post any suction screen findings when removal starts. Sorry for the downtime and expense.

Thank you for weighing in, Mahlon!
 
Sump screen

Only the small pieces get to the filter. Pull the sump screen and look for larger chunks.

And +1 for Mahlon's recommendation.
 
Sorry man, you're done flying for now. My friend went through it last year and it was exactly what everybody warned him it was - spalling cam. He had no other damage than cam and lifters. He had a very old engine (1970s) with low hrs in a pitts. I guess several of the previous owners (there were a few) were afraid of the airplane and it didn't fly much. But this is nothing that time will improve and more runtime = more damage. Block one of the little passages that lubricate the crank bearings and you could end up in a field with a broken crank. $$$$$ even if you don't damage the airplane. There is no other rational course of action. It sucks. :mad: But at least you caught it. :eek:
 
Thank you for your tips and Help. I will NOT fly the plane and I will try to organize a pull of a cylinder to look, where the metal come from.

One last question:
I now own the plane for 4 years and the former owner 16 years. He and later me too don't use CAMGUARD Oil aditive. There was no Metal in the Filter the last 6+ Oil-changes.
25 Hours ago with the last oilchange, I use CAMGUARD for the first Time. Is it possible, that CAMGUARD dissolved deposits in the engine and now wash up the old metal wear of 20 years in the Oil-Filter ????

CAMGUARD spoke on there FAQ only from increase in the Oil analysis, when used in an old engine for the first time.

Q: Can I use CamGuard Aviation in a high time engine?
A: Yes, CamGuard is valuable at any point in an engine’s life. When added to a high time engine, oil analysis may show an artificial increase in metals across the board for a few oil changes. This is normal. CamGuard does not clean engines, remove varnish or release sludge, but does allow them to clean themselves due to mechanical motions. The artificial increase in metals comes from extraction of the liquid phase of the lead sludge that is found in the low flow areas of the engine e.g. sump, crank, and prop hub.


Achim
 
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Is it possible, that CAMGUARD dissolved deposits in the engine and now wash up the old metal wear of 20 years in the Oil-Filter ????[/I][/B]

NO!

That type of destruction is not caused by the recent introduction of an oil additive. That is not really typical wear, as you might experience over 20 years. They are large chunks and it is evidence of something self-destructing.
 
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That?s a lot of metal. I seriously doubt any additive could ?dredge up? those kind of deposits.
When I first got my Bucker, I ?excersized? the airplanes inverted systems a lot more than the prior owner. I would get a measurable amount of metal, but well below Lycomings SB. We theorized it was ?dredged up?. Eventually it quit giving up metal, supporting the theory. However, towards the ?end? well after TBO, symptoms of cam lobe wear started to show. Upon rebuild, one of the lobes wasn?t much of a lobe anymore.
 
Lot's of metal

I had a similar situation. 850 hr since new O-360. Annual and filter check before taking off across the country to the Bahamas and then changed the oil/filter just after. Found a similar amount of metal as your pics :eek:

Turned out to be a crank bearing eating itself.

You're smart for grounding the airplane.

I would (and did) have the engine torn down and cleaned of all the bits of metal floating around. Don't forget to clean/replace the oil cooler and oil lines as well.

Best of luck,

Laird
 
Your engine's tappet face(s) probably look the photo included in post #6. It won't get better and as Mahlon indicated it could make the ultimate repair a lot more costly. Unfortunately, you'll have to pull a cyliner(s) to confirm it, but given the history you describe, that's a likely finding. That said, there could be other things going bad in the engine too. One example; if the tappet looks like the photo, very likely the cam lobes are badly worn as well.

The camguard additive did not play a role in this - it's pretty common in Lycomings that don't fly a lot.

Dan
 
Reference is
Lycoming Service Bulletin 480F, 5/25/2107, oil servicing, metallic solid identification after oil servicing and associated corrective action.
Good luck!
 
Your engine's tappet face(s) probably look the photo included in post #6. It won't get better and as Mahlon indicated it could make the ultimate repair a lot more costly. Unfortunately, you'll have to pull a cyliner(s) to confirm it, but given the history you describe, that's a likely finding. That said, there could be other things going bad in the engine too. One example; if the tappet looks like the photo, very likely the cam lobes are badly worn as well.

The camguard additive did not play a role in this - it's pretty common in Lycomings that don't fly a lot.

Dan

If the lobe is really bad you can see the wear by watching the valve travel with the cylinder still installed. Normal valve travel is almost 1/2 inch up and down. When the lobe is gone it is less. If the lobe wear is small than the travel won't show it but if a lot it will.
In this situation it does look like tappet lobe material but the rate from nothing to that amount is weird. Maybe a impulse coupling self destructing?
That much metal all of a sudden with none prior is unusual and something is really going to **** really quickly.
IMHO cam guard could not have possibly caused this.

Good Luck,
Mahlon
 
Lycoming O360, ~1200 Hours. ~7month and 40hours after last Oilchange.
For the first time I used CAMGUARD

Looks like this engine ain?t (or wasn?t) flying enough... Camguard has nothing to do with it.
Helped a friend on his annual a couple of days ago, albeit a C-90, but also found a sizeable amount of metal in the filter.
Fresh oil, fly 20hrs max, recheck. I would not (though barely) pull a jug (or 2 to inspect enough cams) yet...
 
Hi, (back after 3 Month)
An Oil analysis show only little more than normal Iron in the oil. I flew 14 hours with new Oil and Filter and made an Olifilter check today. Much less metal in the Filter. I will fly 15 Hours and then make an Oil- and Filter-change and also an oil analysis. Engine runs very smooth and robust.

Achim

Filter4.jpg

Magnet4.jpg
 
No one wants to be an the bearer of bad news, and I certainly don't want to say this engine absolutely needs an overhaul (or at least replacement of cam / tappets).

What I can tell you is that if the photo showing the metal from the sample after three months is your from your most recent run - if this was my airplane, I would not fly it until at least one front and one rear cylinder had come off so I could look at the cam / tappets. I would expect to see a photo similar to post #6, and if so, the engine would be grounded until repaired. If the cam & lifters were somehow in tip top shape, then there is a very serious question about where the metal is coming from, and my engine would be grounded until I knew that answer.

Mahlon is very experienced and knowledgeable about Lycoming engines. You should really take his advice.

Lastly, be careful about attributing the status based on the oil sample results. I've seen cam / lifters as in post #6 with oil samples that were perfectly normal. Wear metal concentrations in an oil sample don't always align with accumulating metal in the oil filter.

Best of luck.

Dan
 
I can't believe you are flying that engine! Just look at the size of that large metal chunk in your picture!!! That is not normal and not wear. Something is self-destructing and you are taking real risk flying it. Sure, it could just be a spalling lifter that won't cause your engine to stop or explode. However, it could also be your crank gear or an oil pump gear coming apart that would have a VERY unpleasant outcome

Specgtrographic oil analyssi will NOT catch metal chunks of that size. Please do not rely solely on oil analysis for troubleshooting. My 320 was rapidly eating piston pin plugs and leaving a lot of debris in the filter. Oil analysis came back with below normal levels. They even put a little smiley face on the report and indicated that everything looks great! It is not a panacea and cannot replace good judgement and component evaluation.

However, we are all adults and must make our own risk decisions.

Larry

Hi, (back after 3 Month)
An Oil analysis show only little more than normal Iron in the oil. I flew 14 hours with new Oil and Filter and made an Olifilter check today. Much less metal in the Filter. I will fly 15 Hours and then make an Oil- and Filter-change and also an oil analysis. Engine runs very smooth and robust.
Achim

Filter4.jpg

Magnet4.jpg
 
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In 2011 my filter had similar metal in it, oil analysis was nominal. Pulled a couple jugs, and the cam and lifters looked perfect. It was the crankshaft gear:

XLSeROWPtJ2wSCEMYHz-AHSfOf5gqFuaJThhXfnZd4XN0BiQCaz0hhjzH65ySWFGsIKuq_IA_g75k5MyNAlgnECKt89gRjvtXVy3wzTCJWF_-AZywl01BwOpKFZP9qlrXLXliCQMb7W4RBl33RViJMlAzux6XprrVA0jRHmcVPZRjE42YINDkOyi5Sbzzf0kZfNC1MWMbDK_mWFc1QvZQxsgpr3hw69MsdPYlf99xr78Rw1EHabeFtCrjVADMbPoll0FhLLC4Uf_VCFoHyQFkVozkoeX1-PRTz1I6qx_0KVz3r5sXjhRBRq3MpcdGseUOFYQt_Ez6AMpvCQrGgL6i_y2QlLug1VwxkmIkCrBM0nngoRRZMX2do4EGZy6xldDxRtubz7lutttsWVecHJC7sjk1D0SSoNCcJiWMEf-oXk8-qwPrHycSofyHSiSoe1lszf343KSOTf1u-H2inkPuhcen6xGLLTQ1fvJEL_qqe3LDs6HBrwm8ocBbjuJLK2YviajFGFn6EnHHNthiTfB7Z8cuVop8RQc9-xkVwADg8-CVvetYhz0t5XrqF1HPaNKlJsu2b5De3v21HvVXcb9CevYx7FW8I1kZh5x7Hy_teAqUpQk-pSJx008wcWO8M1PF-wAwACBeHVNLVcllYJ5_fscAmrWlfq5lykRfEw6KipT_NKTp5bRwFHR8WkkvntfjQlBGX9TDk8M-tIXOytttatDwg=w480-no


If I had kept flying it, it would have been an engine failure, only question is when.
 
When my engine started making metal from the cam it was a fine fuzz on the magnet. This looks different. Be safe out there.
 
I would not fly with an engine making metal like that in your photo.

At 34 hrs after a rebuild, my 2nd oil change had less metal than you show but more than there should be. A jug was pulled and it was plain to see the bad lifters and cam. The engine was pulled and stripped down. I had to replace the cam and lifters, bearings, oil pump gears and housing, pistons, rings and hone the cylinders. Managed to save the case, and crank, but if I had kept running it they would have been damaged as well.

We suspect the cause of the problem was that the reconditioned lifters were not properly done. My new cylinder assemblies required new pistons due to metal imbedded in the skirts. The nickel cylinders had minor scratches and were able to be honed. Also replaced the oil cooler as they said it could not be guaranteed to get all the metal out by flushing due to the way they are constructed.

It was an expensive lesson, but 250 hrs later and no metal found in any of the oil changes since. Glad to have the piece of mind!

Good luck with your decision.
 
You have asked for advice and have gotten consistent replies from some very knowledgeable people to not fly the airplane. This is a classic case of denial, please do not become a statistic.
 
Where is a photo of the sump screen collection? It was surely checked, no?

The latest photo says you are rationalizing NOT doing actual maintenance to discover the metal source.

Your sump screen could be clean, or it may have part numbers collected.
 
Measured Data with removed valve cap:
table.jpg


Achim
As others have pointed out, the most likely sources for steel are the cam/ tappets, or the gear sets in the accessory housing. The cam/ tappets are most typical. The easiest first step is to pull a cylinder. You need to verify the condition of the cam and lifters one way or the other, unless you would prefer to remove the engine and pull the accessory housing. :(. Of course, you will probably be removing the engine in any case.
 
Need Tips

Thank you for all your knowledge. :) I will remove the engine and send it to a repair station.

Now I need a few (more) tips:
I want to remove the engine together with a RV8 builder.
The engine is a 20 year old O-360 A1A with an Airflow Performance Injection System with a purge valve. ~1.200 Hours

Which parts should be removed ?
Which is the best order removing the parts ?
Should I order a new Oil-Cooler because of Metal contermination ?
Should I order a Check of the Magnetos ? Or buy PMAG ;)
I will order new Engine Vibration Mounts, should I also order new bolts ?
Other parts, that should be replaced ? Engine Sensors ? CHT, EGT

Will the RV6A stay on its wheels, when the engine is removed ? The plane has to stay mobile.

How should I pack the engine for shipping ? I found an old O320 box.
The hook on top of the engine is covered from the flow divider. Should I remove it or use an other method to hang the engine ?

I am thinking about a panel update. JPI EDM 700 to EDM 740 ? Or big update to G3X ?

...to be continued...

Joachim
 
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Should I order a new Oil-Cooler because of Metal contermination ?

Yes, or have it cleaned by pacific cooler. The cooler is upstream of the filter and you will find more debris plugging it than you found in the filter.

Will the RV6A stay on its wheels, when the engine is removed ? The plane has to stay mobile.

It will tip toward it's tail if I remember correctly. However, there will not be much weight on the tail. A saw horse with some padding will work fine. It is easy to move around by the tail with one person.

The hook on top of the engine is covered from the flow divider. Should I remove it or use an other method to hang the engine ?

Use the hook provided.



Joachim

Responses in line

Larry
 
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