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E-AB vs E-LSA

D

Darrel Mooney

I'm New Here
What are the considerations of building as E-AB vs E-LSA. It seems to me that you could build as an E-AB but follow the E-LSA guidelines exactly in order to make changes after the airplane is certificated as an E-AB in the areas of Avionics, drag reduction, etc. Any discussion????
 
If you are going to build it exactly like the plans I don't think there is a real advantage of EAB. In my opinion the only signifigant reason for going EAB is to save some money on the build by going with a more standard panel and a low time engine. That is not to say you will be saving value. You may indeed be sacrificing some value for a less expensive build. I have been back and forth on this issue. With the plug and play way everything is, I am thinking there is more value in going E-LSA. I soon will be to the point where I have to make the decision. As of right now I am going E-LSA, but that may change.
 
Darrel Mooney said:
What are the considerations of building as E-AB vs E-LSA??
Click to expand...

Hi Darrel,

The biggest advantage to certificating the aircraft as amateur-built would be that you would NOT have to conform to Van's strict assembly instructions when building the aircraft. You could use a different prop, different engine, different instruments/avionics, etc. if you like. You could even equip the aircraft outside of the LSA definition if you wanted (although it would then be forever ineligible for operation by sport pilots.)

Another advantage is that, assuming that you perform the majority of the building (and assuming that the aircraft meets the major portion requirements for amateur-built certification, see below) you can get the repairman certificate without having to take the 16 hour LSA repairman course.

Now the other side of the coin;

1) You would have to be able to prove that the aircraft meets the major portion requirement (aka, the "51% rule") for amateur-built certification. Van's has not (to my knowledge) issued any sort of guarantee that the RV-12 meets the requirements for amateur-built certification, and it has not been evaluated by the FAA. This being the case, it's up to YOU as the applicant to be able to prove that the aircraft does indeed meet the requirements for the amateur-built certificate.

We should see the new guidance regarding amateur-built certification (including a new 8000-38 checklist) from the FAA any day now. The RV-12 will have to meet the new certification guidance, so we'll know more about this issue in the near future.

2) Your name is on the paperwork as the "builder" if you to amateur-built. If you go ELSA kit built, Van's is the manufacturer. Some people see this as an issue and some do not. Just wanted to point out the difference.

In either case, once the airworthiness certificate is issued you are free to modify the aircraft as you see fit, although in the case of ELSA certification you need to keep the aircraft within the LSA definition. In the case of amateur-built certification your modifications could carry the aircraft outside the LSA definition if sport pilot operations are not an issue for you.

Hope this helps!

Joe
 
jnorris said:
Hi Darrel,

The biggest advantage to certificating the aircraft as amateur-built would be that you would NOT have to conform to Van's strict assembly instructions when building the aircraft. You could use a different prop, different engine, different instruments/avionics, etc. if you like. You could even equip the aircraft outside of the LSA definition if you wanted (although it would then be forever ineligible for operation by sport pilots.)

Another advantage is that, assuming that you perform the majority of the building (and assuming that the aircraft meets the major portion requirements for amateur-built certification, see below) you can get the repairman certificate without having to take the 16 hour LSA repairman course.

Now the other side of the coin;

1) You would have to be able to prove that the aircraft meets the major portion requirement (aka, the "51% rule") for amateur-built certification. Van's has not (to my knowledge) issued any sort of guarantee that the RV-12 meets the requirements for amateur-built certification, and it has not been evaluated by the FAA. This being the case, it's up to YOU as the applicant to be able to prove that the aircraft does indeed meet the requirements for the amateur-built certificate.

We should see the new guidance regarding amateur-built certification (including a new 8000-38 checklist) from the FAA any day now. The RV-12 will have to meet the new certification guidance, so we'll know more about this issue in the near future.

2) Your name is on the paperwork as the "builder" if you to amateur-built. If you go ELSA kit built, Van's is the manufacturer. Some people see this as an issue and some do not. Just wanted to point out the difference.

In either case, once the airworthiness certificate is issued you are free to modify the aircraft as you see fit, although in the case of ELSA certification you need to keep the aircraft within the LSA definition. In the case of amateur-built certification your modifications could carry the aircraft outside the LSA definition if sport pilot operations are not an issue for you.

Hope this helps!

Joe
Click to expand...

Very well summed up, Joe.

LSA has been on my mind and the difference between E-AB and E-LSA is all wrapped up in whether or not the FAA will accept the E-AB for certification under LSA rules.

I was looking at Fisher airplanes at OSH and most of their machines fall within the LSA envelope and probably would not be a problem getting a DAR to certify one as such, but there are other LSA offerings that push the LSA envelope and that may be a problem when it comes to getting the certificate.

The beauty of E-LSA is it is already approved, although only if it is built per the original application and no changes are made down the road.

It would be interesting to have a report from anyone who has gone the E-AB route and jumped through all the hoops LSA to get it certified. So far, I don't think anyone has done it.

PS. I sure would miss the 150 knot cruise performance at altitude but bumping along at LSA cruise speed at 2500' would be better than walking. :)
 
David-aviator said:
LSA has been on my mind and the difference between E-AB and E-LSA is all wrapped up in whether or not the FAA will accept the E-AB for certification under LSA rules.

... that may be a problem when it comes to getting the certificate.

It would be interesting to have a report from anyone who has gone the E-AB route and jumped through all the hoops LSA to get it certified. So far, I don't think anyone has done it.
Click to expand...
E-AB has nothing to do with LSA rules. If you go E-AB, it will be just like any other E-AB. If you choose to operate it as a "Sport Pilot", it will be up to you to show compliance with LSA rules.
There are no "LSA hoops" to jump through.
 
Mel said:
E-AB has nothing to do with LSA rules. If you go E-AB, it will be just like any other E-AB. If you choose to operate it as a "Sport Pilot", it will be up to you to show compliance with LSA rules.
There are no "LSA hoops" to jump through.
Click to expand...

Well, showing LSA compliance would be in a sense jumping through hoops, I think. It won't be a done deal like a regular AB without LSA rules.

Have you done any such certificates and if so, how was compliance with LSA rules demonstrated without flying the airplane? That's what I wonder about.
 
jnorris said:
In either case, once the airworthiness certificate is issued you are free to modify the aircraft as you see fit, although in the case of ELSA certification you need to keep the aircraft within the LSA definition.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that if a plane was certified as E-LSA, it'll need to be maintained according to the manufacturer's specs which were used for certification, not just keeping it within LSA definition. For example, if the plane was certified with a McCauley XYZ prop, then you can't replace it with a Sensenich ABC prop, unless later on the manufacturer issues spec revisions allowing the substitution. Am I wrong?
 
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David-aviator said:
Well, showing LSA compliance would be in a sense jumping through hoops, I think. It won't be a done deal like a regular AB without LSA rules.

Have you done any such certificates and if so, how was compliance with LSA rules demonstrated without flying the airplane? That's what I wonder about.
Click to expand...



I don't understand your point. If you go EAB the Dar does not consider anything about LSA. The consideration comes when you as the pilot decide to jump in it. Before a sport pilot jumps into a plane to fly it he must make sure it meets the definition. He also has to make sure he has the right endorsements in his logbook for that plane.
 
H_Pham said:
My understanding is that if a plane was certified as E-LSA, it'll need to be maintained according to the manufacturer's specs which were used for certification, not just keeping it within LSA definition. For example, if the plane was certified with a McCauley XYZ prop, then you can't replace it with a Sensenich ABC prop, unless later on the manufacturer issues spec revisions allowing the substitution. Am I wrong?
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Yes, in short, you are wrong. ;) The fact is that, once an aircraft receives an ELSA airworthiness certificate it is an experimental aircraft an can be "experimented" with. There is no regulation that requires it to be maintained in accordance with any particular instructions. The only overriding requirement is that it must stay within the LSA definition because it is certificated as ELSA.

If you want a different propeller, use the "major change" provisions in the operating limitations and install the propeller you want (fixed pitch or ground adjustable). If you want a different (reciprocating) engine, use the major change requirements and install the engine you want. Just do your darnedest to make sure the modification you are making doesn't move the aircraft outside the LSA definition (think speed - maximum and stall).

The original manufacturer of the ELSA kit has no control over the aircraft once the airworthiness certificate is issued. Up until the issuance of the ELSA airworthiness certificate you MUST build the aircraft exactly as specified by the kit manufacturer. After the issuance of the airworthiness certificate anything goes as long as the aircraft stays within the LSA definition.

Cheers!

Joe
 
David-aviator said:
Have you done any such certificates and if so, how was compliance with LSA rules demonstrated without flying the airplane? That's what I wonder about.
Click to expand...

There is nothing on an amateur-built airworthiness certificate, nor anything on any form submitted to the FAA, that mentions anything about whether or not the aircraft meets the LSA definition. The DAR does not care, and will not ask for any sort of documentation or verification of LSA compliance. It is not a certification issue. It is an operational issue.

In the case of an amateur-built aircraft, compliance must be shown through flight test data. Of course the aircraft must physically fit the definition to start out with (1 or 2 seats, single reciprocating engine, fixed or ground-adjustable prop, 1320 or less max gross, etc.) but the speeds will need to be verified through flight testing and carefully documented in the aircraft records.

In short, you won't know for sure whether the amateur-built aircraft meets the LSA definition or not until it's flight-tested. Only after the clean stall and maximum level-flight speeds have been determined and documented will you know for sure if the aircraft meets the definition or not. Nothing that is done during the certification of the aircraft will guarantee or verify LSA compliance.

Cheers!

Joe
 
jnorris said:
There is nothing on an amateur-built airworthiness certificate, nor anything on any form submitted to the FAA, that mentions anything about whether or not the aircraft meets the LSA definition. The DAR does not care, and will not ask for any sort of documentation or verification of LSA compliance. It is not a certification issue. It is an operational issue.

In the case of an amateur-built aircraft, compliance must be shown through flight test data. Of course the aircraft must physically fit the definition to start out with (1 or 2 seats, single reciprocating engine, fixed or ground-adjustable prop, 1320 or less max gross, etc.) but the speeds will need to be verified through flight testing and carefully documented in the aircraft records.

In short, you won't know for sure whether the amateur-built aircraft meets the LSA definition or not until it's flight-tested. Only after the clean stall and maximum level-flight speeds have been determined and documented will you know for sure if the aircraft meets the definition or not. Nothing that is done during the certification of the aircraft will guarantee or verify LSA compliance.

Cheers!

Joe
Click to expand...

Thanks. I think I am getting the big picture.

From EAA, I just read the following -

Sport pilots may fly aircraft certificated in many of the experimental aircraft categories, including experimental light-sport aircraft, experimental amateur-built, and experimental exhibition.

Experimental amateur-built aircraft that meet the definition of an LSA may be flown by sport pilots. The aircraft is certificated as experimental amateur-built and must be operated in accordance with the operating limitations issued to the aircraft at the time it receives its airworthiness certification. It must be maintained and inspected in accordance with regulations as they pertain to amateur-built aircraft. Its annual condition inspection may be performed by the original primary builder if he/she holds the repairman certificate for the aircraft, an A&P mechanic, or a certified repair station.

The same page also lists many experimental kits that basically meet LSA requirements, including many of the Fisher models I mentioned earlier.

Curiously, I have not found the RV-12 on any list on the that site but I have not gone over it in detail.
 
EAB or E-LSA? You make the call!

Also if you wish to sell your plane some day there is some value in the fact as a E-LSA the new owner can simply take a weekend EAA course and then do his own annuals, where as a EAB only you the builder will be able to work on it other than an A&P. J
 
Jetguy said:
Also if you wish to sell your plane some day there is some value in the fact as a E-LSA the new owner can simply take a weekend EAA course and then do his own annuals, where as a EAB only you the builder will be able to work on it other than an A&P. J
Click to expand...

You are partially correct...

With any experimental (light sport, amateur built, whatever...) Anyone can do maint. or repairs on it. Even rebuild it after it has been wrecked/damaged.
The only time the Light Sport Inspector certificate (E-LSA) or Repairman's Certificate (amateur built) is required is to be eligible to sign of the annual condition inspection.
You are correct in the value of E-LSA in that any future owners can become "Certified"to do there annual condition inspection.
 
RV12 EAA List

The other reason may be because the RV12 was not certified as an SLSA until just recently. And you cannot have an ELSA until you first certify the original model as an SLSA. In other words, many of us have building an ELSA on the faith that Van's would indeed certify the RV12 as an SLSA....which they did just recently. We are all sleeping better now.
 
Peterk said:
The other reason may be because the RV12 was not certified as an SLSA until just recently. And you cannot have an ELSA until you first certify the original model as an SLSA. In other words, many of us have building an ELSA on the faith that Van's would indeed certify the RV12 as an SLSA....which they did just recently. We are all sleeping better now.
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The list being discussed includes a lot of aircraft that have never been certificated as an S-LSA or E-LSA. It is a list of aircraft that if built following the original designers specifications, have been shown to have performance that complies with the LSA requirements.
 
8050-88A

Scott, or Joe,

I know Van's is supplying the certificate of compliance. Are they also supplying the Form 8050-88A Certificate of Ownership. I ask because the 80-50-88 for AB requires the owners sig but the 88A required by the feds for ELSA requires the sig of the manufacturer ?????
 
jnorris said:
The only overriding requirement is that it must stay within the LSA definition because it is certificated as ELSA.

If you want a different propeller, use the "major change" provisions in the operating limitations and install the propeller you want (fixed pitch or ground adjustable).
Click to expand...

What happens if a mod you make is discovered to inadvertently take the aircraft outside LSA parameters? For example, you are trying a new prop, and discover that the maximum speed is now slightly too fast to meet LSA parameters. You change back to the previous prop, to bring the aircraft back inside the LSA parameters. Can you still fly it with LSA privileges, or do you run foul of the LSA definition in FAR 1, which states "Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following: ... (2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level"?
 
Kevin brings up a good point that is a rub with some of the vintage LSA's. There are a number of old birds that in original configuration meet LSA specs, but through one or more mods don't meet those specs. As I understand it, once outside the LSA spec's, it can't be brought back.....

Then again I learn something new every day! :)

Cheers,
Stein
 
Stine has it right, if it ever is flown in a configuration that is not LSA compliant, then it is out forever. With an aircraft like a Luscombe it is still a certified aircraft and can continue to be flown by pilots that have to have a medical. In the case of an ELSA it would no longer be certifiable in any category, except perhaps Experimental Racing and Exhibition, I do not think anyone has tested this yet so it may or may not work. If the builder could prove up to the 51 % rule perhaps it could be re certified as a EAB and again this has not been tried. There is a non zero chance that it would become a lawn ornament as far as the FAA is concerned and that is a big risk even with a small probability.

In the real world if a prop were tested and found to be a little fast I think it just would never of happened (test first make log entries latter) but we have not yet seen the FAA demonstrate any interest in testing individual personal aircraft to see if they fit LSA or not. I fear that in time they may get to that in some form and then we may find that we have some real problems of people being charged with violations for each flight they made of said aircraft if it is found not to comply. It would be a mess much like their current zero tolerance program for airspace incursions, just ask the several hundred people who are getting letters from their trip to or from Oshkosh this year, they will all enjoy their oral examination and their 709 ride at best.

Have a good day.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Peterk said:
Scott, or Joe,

I know Van's is supplying the certificate of compliance. Are they also supplying the Form 8050-88A Certificate of Ownership. I ask because the 80-50-88 for AB requires the owners sig but the 88A required by the feds for ELSA requires the sig of the manufacturer ?????
Click to expand...

It will be supplied, because without it you can not apply for aircraft registration.
It is my understanding that if you do not purchase all 6 kits and sign the final order form stating you have built all kits exactly following the construction manual, you will be issued a standard 8050-88 (Instead of 88A) form and you will be on your own to certify as an E-AB.
 
Form 88A

rvbuilder2002 said:
It will be supplied, because without it you can not apply for aircraft registration.
It is my understanding that if you do not purchase all 6 kits and sign the final order form stating you have built all kits exactly following the construction manual, you will be issued a standard 8050-88 (Instead of 88A) form and you will be on your own to certify as an E-AB.
Click to expand...

Thanks Scott - another new form - nice to know the plan. Now I also understand why that statement was on the final order form.
 
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