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IFR Panel Design and Build Cost Estimates - Labor

cactusman

Well Known Member
Got a little sticker shock on this one - obviously the prices on the panels and Navigators and parts and pieces are expected....but was surprised to see the labor so high? Dual screen + IFR Navigator + A/P....

Just curious to know if $20-25k for design and build and testing of an RV10/14 IFR panel is in the ballpark of what folks are seeing out there?

I think it's probably worth it in the end...but wow...

Thanks for any feedback.
 
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I won’t comment on the value for money.
The world has changed dramatically in the past few years and demand exceeds supply by a long way in many parts of the economy. So the cost of labor has risen commensurately.
When I went to order my avionics and some pre-wire (I was happy doing hook up in the plane - I never wanted a plug and play loom) the wait was well over 12m.
So I had to do it myself.
IMHO it’s never been easier to do this yourself.
No analog gauges or wiring. Mostly just a network and a few serial/ARINC.
I wired up a similar system to yours in about 2w full time. No issues at all.
If you can build the airframe and FWF you should at least consider trying the avionics yourself.
There’s lots of online resources too if you need it.
You may find the money isn’t the issue, but the wait is.
Cheers
 
I recommend buying your comports as a bundle from Stein. Cut, paint and wire your panel yourself. If you can build an RV-10/14 you can do this simple wiring.

Carl
 
If you decide to wire your own panel, you might consider attending the AEA AVIONICS INSTALLATION FOR EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT class. https://aea.net/Training/courses/exp/

I highly recommend this class, as it provides hands-on training as well as discussions on overall instrumentation selection and designs. It is focused on the Garmin G3X system, but most is applicable to other glass avionics installations.

Regards,
 
I know different people have different level of expertise, patience and capital and based on that they may outsource some of the work.

Wiring multiple devices, especially for IFR, is not simple especially if this is the first time you are doing it but much like building a plane, all the info is out there and it requires some learning and patience.

But I would say, $20-$25k labor is very high. In think, $5K would be a reasonable cost and if they are building it, then the testing should be on them. No reason to pay extra to test what they are building.

I did not have the expertise to cut the panel as nice as a C&C machine cuts it, so I outsourced the cut as well as paint and labeling of it.
 
Dave gives good advice

Dave gives good advice, especially if you aren’t too familiar with electrical. The good thing if you wire it yourself you will know every aspect of your plane. Obviously you won’t know everything but you might know enough to ask the right questions and understand answers to your questions. You’ll learn to bundle your wires, leave enough length on the harnesses.

Get good strippers (self strippers and not the one that has one blade for all wire size but the one that has holes for each wire gauge), not the side strippers where you have to hold the wire and pull to strip. A label maker for heat shrink to label your wires. At some point you will need to go back to either troubleshoot, upgrade avionics, etc. Get proper crimpers for the D-sub pins unless you want to spend all you time troubleshooting and having intermittent problems.

Even if you don’t wire the panel yourself and have it outsourced you will still need to wire things into the harness like nav lights, discrete inputs, etc.
 
Labor-wise, how many hours does it take to design and build an IFR-capable instrument panel? I have no clue, but there should be a fair number of people here on VAF that can answer that question. Multiplying the answer by $80 - $100 would provide a clue as to whether or not $20 -$25,000, or $5000, is reasonable compensation.
 
Labor-wise, how many hours does it take to design and build an IFR-capable instrument panel? I have no clue, but there should be a fair number of people here on VAF that can answer that question. Multiplying the answer by $80 - $100 would provide a clue as to whether or not $20 -$25,000, or $5000, is reasonable compensation.

Considering the fact that any semi reputable shop has already made a number of panels with the same popular avionics vendors (Garmin, Advance, Dynon, etc) the design work should hardly take any time, that is why they charge a professional level rate $100/hour.

The real time is in building the harness + any modifications that is out of ordinary unless the OP is going to use a whole different system that has not done before by them and it requires them research and all new design work.
 
On my -10, I purchased the avionics and the harnesses from a major supplier. I thought they could build better harnesses than I could. But the panel cutting, painting, labeling, etc, I did myself.

I think I paid $3-4k for the harnesses and am happy with the results.

No way would I pay $25k for harnesses, fabrication, assembly, and testing of a panel.
 
Like most other posters, I find these labor rates shocking. It's a new world, I guess. But I am also surprised at how many builders think wiring is something magical, beyond their reach. For me, the planning, thinking, etc., was part of the fun of building. The actual work can be a bit tedious, but so can riveting. As they say, it's just one wire at a time. Get the right tools (compared to the build-tools, they're not that much) and go for it!
 
Considering the fact that any semi reputable shop has already made a number of panels with the same popular avionics vendors (Garmin, Advance, Dynon, etc) the design work should hardly take any time, that is why they charge a professional level rate $100/hour.

The real time is in building the harness + any modifications that is out of ordinary unless the OP is going to use a whole different system that has not done before by them and it requires them research and all new design work.

Not sure of the OP's inclination, but there are many Experimental aviation owners who have no interest in building an airplane, let alone designing, building, wiring, testing an avionics panel. I'd be looking to farm that component out too, but I'd sure be checking with Stein, Jason at Aerotronics, or Rob Hickman to price that project before accepting $20K-plus for labor alone.
 
Not sure of the OP's inclination, but there are many Experimental aviation owners who have no interest in building an airplane, let alone designing, building, wiring, testing an avionics panel. I'd be looking to farm that component out too, but I'd sure be checking with Stein, Jason at Aerotronics, or Rob Hickman to price that project before accepting $20K-plus for labor alone.

I recommend to add Approach Fast Stack to your list as well. They tend not to build panels but they make harness based on your measurements etc and their quality is top notch, next to Aerotronics which I consider one of the best.
 
I recommend to add Approach Fast Stack to your list as well. They tend not to build panels but they make harness based on your measurements etc and their quality is top notch, next to Aerotronics which I consider one of the best.

I have been very intrigued by the concept of Advanced Flight's Advanced Panel. The modularity that the Advanced Control Module allows seems to be very clever. Stein would be more likely to be my go-to, partly because of proximity (40 minute flight from here) but also because there's no sales tax in this state on avionics parts and labor for Part 91 aircraft. Plus, Stein is very RV-friendly, and a heckuva a nice guy.
 
Got a little sticker shock on this one - obviously the prices on the panels and Navigators and parts and pieces are expected....but was surprised to see the labor so high? Dual screen + IFR Navigator + A/P....

Just curious to know if $20-25k for design and build and testing of an RV10/14 IFR panel is in the ballpark of what folks are seeing out there?

This is GREAT news! Now I can tell my wife that I saved $25,000 by doing the new glass panel myself (with help from some local expertise, of course) and the whole thing was $25K instead of $50K.

Kidding aside, I agree with the others that $100/hr seems like a good SWAG rate, and would equate to 200-250 hours. Seems like a lot.

Stein would be more likely to be my go-to, partly because of proximity (40 minute flight from here) but also because there's no sales tax in this state on avionics parts and labor for Part 91 aircraft. Plus, Stein is very RV-friendly, and a heckuva a nice guy.

Doesn't sound like you're interested in DIY, but I believe that if you were to buy the gear from out of state, you would still avoid MN sales tax. CO has the same no tax on avionics rule, and I didn't pay sales tax on the Garmin gear I bought from Sarasota in Florida.
 
Supply and demand, every shop I know doing Avionics is booked up with a long list. As a Dynon dealer myself I could fill a shop with avionic installs overnight.

It does take time, but as mentioned if you are willing to learn and study it is not magic either.
 
Doesn't sound like you're interested in DIY, but I believe that if you were to buy the gear from out of state, you would still avoid MN sales tax. CO has the same no tax on avionics rule, and I didn't pay sales tax on the Garmin gear I bought from Sarasota in Florida.

No, you’re right…I’m not interested in designing, building, wiring, and testing a whole new panel. I did exchange/upgrade my EFIS/PFD a couple of years ago. That necessitated a lot of re-wiring, new installation, plumbing, configuration, pinning, re-pinning, and testing, and is largely what demonstrated to me the limits of my interest in avionics. I still have Rob Hickman’s cell number on speed dial. I haven’t had to call him lately, which I’m certain he’s glad of.

I had no idea about the sales tax thing until I bought an IFD440 to replace my 430W from Stein. That legislative gift saved me about 7% of more than $12,000. What a bonus!
 
Labor-wise, how many hours does it take to design and build an IFR-capable instrument panel? I have no clue, but there should be a fair number of people here on VAF that can answer that question. Multiplying the answer by $80 - $100 would provide a clue as to whether or not $20 -$25,000, or $5000, is reasonable compensation.

I had my RV-10 panel done by Stein in 2019. The labor was 52 hours. I felt it was a bargain, labor accounted for about 10% of the full panel cost with avionics. There are many factors that could drive that up of course.
 

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Perhaps some folks are confusing how much for a "panel in a box" which you install yourself vs bring the airplane to a shop (what I do) for a panel change and complete install, they are two completely different animals.
 
Perhaps some folks are confusing how much for a "panel in a box" which you install yourself vs bring the airplane to a shop (what I do) for a panel change and complete install, they are two completely different animals.

No confusion. Those are two of the three options. In your experience...if OP brought his plane to you...would $20,000 - $25,000 be a crazy labor charge for you building an IFR panel for him, based on your experience?
 
No confusion. Those are two of the three options. In your experience...if OP brought his plane to you...would $20,000 - $25,000 be a crazy labor charge for you building an IFR panel for him, based on your experience?

Not crazy at all and yes that is generally where it ends up after I gut 90% of the wiring and redo most everything electrical (sorry but the general level of workmanship when it comes to wiring is pitiful). My rate is $120hr and 160-200 hrs is about average. I also do full setup and check out, IFR certs, new WB, etc. Each aircraft gets a custom-built wiring harness made specifically for that airframe.

Also usually do the annual insp as the aircraft is fully opened which drives the cost even higher..
The current aircraft in work is getting the full spa treatment with the annual, new carb, hoses, ign OH, new wires/plugs, new B&C alt/reg, starter, RR prop, new belt, had to send current catto prop back to them for repair.
You get the idea.
 
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Thanks. Pretty much in line with what I hear from people around here that do the same kind of work as you. Concierge service isn't usually cheap.
 
Panel plus

Because kit lead times are so long I’m opting to simply gut and rebuild my RV-7. Doing all new lights, panel, engine, prop and interior.

With today’s inflated prices the rework is going to cost a fair bit more than this whole plane cost to build the fist time. Oh well, no going back now!
 
Had a few projects lately at work and skilled labor is more like $200-250 per hour not $100. especially if the person is an A&P. There has been a huge labor rate increase in the past few years. We are having an issue with one of our contractors not being able to hire competent people to do sheet metal repair work since the contract assumed old labor rates and they cant get anyone to work for that anymore.
 
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