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VFR to IFR Upgrade - Thoughts?

ericsaliba

I'm New Here
I bought an RV6 two years ago and have flown about 200 hours since. Absolutely love it! I have about 350 hours total time and I'm about 10 hours into instrument training in a Mooney. I'd like to finish training and take the instrument checkride in my own airplane with capable equipment.

Recently the right side Horizon Series 1 WS went out, so I figure it's a good time to upgrade. I'd also like to take advantage of GRTs Osh discounts (until August 8th) and purchase a single Horizon 10.1 EFIS.

I spent some years building custom hotrods and have the skills/resources to rearrange everything on the panel. Avionics are new for me though so I'm hoping you guys can help me avoid expensive dead-ends while purchasing.

Proposed equipment List:

GRT Horizon 10.1 (purchase)
GNC355 NAV and COM1 (purchase)
G5 backup (purchase)
SL30 radio for COM2 (existing)
GMA245 or another (purchase, if necessary?)
GTX327 transponder (existing)
Echo UAT to be hard-wired to Horizon (existing)
GRT EIS (existing)

Autopilot:
Currently have TruTrak ADI Pilot II but the horizon indicator is skewed (works properly other than that). My understanding is that TruTrack no longer exists and can't service the unit. I could possibly take it apart and attempt to correct the horizon card, or alternatively consider purchasing GRT AP servos to be controlled directly from the Horizon EFIS.

Existing Equipment to Decide to Keep/Delete
- airspeed indicator
- magnetic compass
- vertical speed indicator
- altimeter
- GRT Horizon WS EFIS (one is still working, one is not)
- There's a bank of automotive fuses under panel. Seems like these need to become panel mount circuit breakers for safety reasons

Is this plan basically sound? Are the round gauges worth keeping?

Pic of the current layout:
IMG_2994.JPG
 
My 2 cents.
1. Keep the fuses unless you really don't like them. Ask yourself, do I really want to reset a CB or fuse in flight? And maybe risk a fire? OTOH I do like pullable CBs on things like electric trim, so you can pull it in a run away situation.
2. Do you need a full-blown audio panel? Buy, or, if you feel up to the task, build your own intercom, with extra unswitched inputs. Put in a single switch (double pole double throw) to switch #1 or #2 com transmit (mike and PTT signals), run all audio into unswitched lines on the intercom and use the radio volume controls to control what you want to hear. On the SL30 there's an ID button, to hear nav audio, so no need to have a switch on an audio panel too.
3. I'd keep the autopilot for now. Once you get used to controlling it from the GRT EFIS you'll never look at it anyway.
4. I'd look at the GRT mini EFIS units, to save a bit of money over the G5, plus have no interface compatibility issues. Get the Li backup battery.
5. GRT WS EFIS. Keep it for back up,and/or display engine data or traffic.
6. Steam gauges? If you have room, why not?
 
Don’t underestimate the value of a 100% reliable AP for IFR in an RV, you haven’t lived until you get a complete reroute while in actual IFR conditions.
The AP is no-go item for me, the alternative is a qualified copilot.
 
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Airspeed indicator

If the airplane goes dark, you can get everything from your phone but indicated airspeed. The airspeed indicator is the last steam gauge that I'd part with. If you have an AOA instrument that doesn't depend on electrons, that would be a good substitute.
 
I just took my instrument checkride a week ago in my RV and gained some actual time on my way to Osh this week so here is my take.

-100% agree with Walt, an autopilot in the RV is a personal must for me, it takes a high workload and makes it much much more manageable. You should also start a dialog with your DPE ahead of time and ask what their policy is on the checkride. You have to demonstrate it on a non precision approach and some DPEs don't let you use it again. Luckily my DPE said "it's not in the ACS you can't use it on two approaches". Know your systems well, he said most people fail because they can't manage the buttonology.

-definitely keep the SL30 for your comm and more importantly VOR/LOC/GS functionality. While the GNC355 would be great as a single resource in IFR flight it is not acceptable by itself for the checkride per ACS standards on the two non-precision approaches.

-I have a backup G5 and it is sweet! Definitely recommend, your partial panel flying on the checkride will be a breeze with it.

-I also use the GMA245 and love it!

-Get the backup battery for the G5 and ditch all the steam stuff (with a possible keep of airspeed). Personally, I would ditch all steam but only because it would be a backup of a backup.

Also, if you ever want to reach out to me on my experience with the checkride and getting ready for it feel free to send me a PM.
 
While the GNC355 would be great as a single resource in IFR flight it is not acceptable by itself for the checkride per ACS standards on the two non-precision approaches.

The FAA recently changed the ACS, dropped the ‘two different nav aides’ requirement for the two non-precision approaches, making it possible to take the checkride with only (WAAS) gps equipment.
 
The FAA recently changed the ACS, dropped the ‘two different nav aides’ requirement for the two non-precision approaches, making it possible to take the checkride with only (WAAS) gps equipment.

Bob do you have a source for that? Current ACS still shows the requirement. I am aware they clarified/changed requirements on the long cross country but haven't seen anything in the ACS. I'm intrigued now.
 
Personally, I would ditch all steam but only because it would be a backup of a backup.
PM.

Having a backup of a backup isn’t necessarily a bad idea. What will you do if two efis’s both appear to be working but show very different attitudes? [answer: you’ll choose one, level the wings, look at your magnetic compass and see if you’re turning. If you are, choose the other efis.]
 
The FAA recently changed the ACS, dropped the ‘two different nav aides’ requirement for the two non-precision approaches, making it possible to take the checkride with only (WAAS) gps equipment.

What list of non-precision approaches then would satisfy the CFII? Ie, what’s readily available to replace a VOR approach?
 
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2022/Mar/61.65_Recission_memo.pdf

While this memo directs FSDOs to make the change, it’s apparently still making its way thru the paperwork jungle.

Yep that's the one that addresses cross country requirements. I don't get the impression from reading it that it will lead to a change in the ACS. If anything that letter made it more clear on page two.

I was doing some searching on the topic and coincidentally I found a post my DPE up here in Wyoming had and he had this nugget in there:

From a message to DPEs from the FAA;
“The ACS directs the evaluator to test an applicant on three different kinds of approaches, consisting of one precision approach and two non-precision approaches, which must use two different kinds of navigational aids. The ACS provides acceptable examples of those instrument approaches which may be used during the practical test for the precision and non-precision instrument-approach testing requirements. Therefore for an example, conducting three GPS approaches during an instrument rating practical test would not meet FAA-testing requirements.”


See his full post here (second answer).

I guess that dang FAA really wants people to prove they can identify a frequency! :D

Sorry OP for the slight thread drift.
 
I hate letters written by lawyers!
The key phrase is around the middle of the faa memo I posted, where it says the new, correct interpretation of the phrase ‘two different’ is that it modifies (applies to) ‘nav procedures’, but does not apply to nav aides.
So, for example, an LNAV circle to land is different procedure than an LNAV straight in procedure, even if both use gps (the nav aide).
 
I had a similar panel (Rev 2.0) in my RV6.

Current (Rev 4.0) is 10.1 with MINI (x2) in front of the pilot and EX in front of the copilot.
The MINIs became my (electrically) independent backups.

While the G5 is awesome, the MINI-AP will serve as PFD, MAP, ENG,and Autopilot controller. And you get the advantage of buttonology that is similar to the 10.1 and the WS (or EX if you change later)

I have the GARMIN GTN 625 and a GARMIN SL30 as you do.

With this combination and a good audio panel (I spread the love and use PS Engineering) you will be able to comfortably do IFR. Plates displayed on the 10.1. Autopilot control from EITHER the 10.1 or a MINI if you get it (via a selector switch - one wire).

You WILL want to wire the ADSB and the EIS outputs to the 10.1. Trust me on that one.
 
GPS

I took my checkride in my RV-7A 4 years ago with GPS only panel. "Precision" approaches were excepted doing LPV approaches down to 200ft minimums. Just sayin.
 
I took my checkride in my RV-7A 4 years ago with GPS only panel. "Precision" approaches were excepted doing LPV approaches down to 200ft minimums. Just sayin.

It’s the non-precision approaches that require two different navigational systems in the ACS. Was you ride before ACS? Either that or you got lucky your DPE didn’t read it. Haha
 
My 2 cents.
1. Keep the fuses unless you really don't like them. Ask yourself, do I really want to reset a CB or fuse in flight? And maybe risk a fire? OTOH I do like pullable CBs on things like electric trim, so you can pull it in a run away situation.
2. Do you need a full-blown audio panel? Buy, or, if you feel up to the task, build your own intercom, with extra unswitched inputs. Put in a single switch (double pole double throw) to switch #1 or #2 com transmit (mike and PTT signals), run all audio into unswitched lines on the intercom and use the radio volume controls to control what you want to hear. On the SL30 there's an ID button, to hear nav audio, so no need to have a switch on an audio panel too.
3. I'd keep the autopilot for now. Once you get used to controlling it from the GRT EFIS you'll never look at it anyway.
4. I'd look at the GRT mini EFIS units, to save a bit of money over the G5, plus have no interface compatibility issues. Get the Li backup battery.
5. GRT WS EFIS. Keep it for back up,and/or display engine data or traffic.
6. Steam gauges? If you have room, why not?

Thanks for the input. My only purpose for the audio panel is to overlay ATIS on the primary frequency. I'd certainly love to skip it if there are simple solutions like you mentioned.
 
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Don’t underestimate the value of a 100% reliable AP for IFR in an RV, you haven’t lived until you get a complete reroute while in actual IFR conditions.
The AP is no-go item for me, the alternative is a qualified copilot.

Well said. Would you say the EFIS controlling GRT servos directly would be the most simple/robust solution then?
 
I had a similar panel (Rev 2.0) in my RV6.

Current (Rev 4.0) is 10.1 with MINI (x2) in front of the pilot and EX in front of the copilot.
The MINIs became my (electrically) independent backups.

While the G5 is awesome, the MINI-AP will serve as PFD, MAP, ENG,and Autopilot controller. And you get the advantage of buttonology that is similar to the 10.1 and the WS (or EX if you change later)

I have the GARMIN GTN 625 and a GARMIN SL30 as you do.

With this combination and a good audio panel (I spread the love and use PS Engineering) you will be able to comfortably do IFR. Plates displayed on the 10.1. Autopilot control from EITHER the 10.1 or a MINI if you get it (via a selector switch - one wire).

You WILL want to wire the ADSB and the EIS outputs to the 10.1. Trust me on that one.

Great information. Any chance I could see some pics of this panel somewhere?
 
Well said. Would you say the EFIS controlling GRT servos directly would be the most simple/robust solution then?

No real experience with GRT AP, I know that I don't trust the Trutrak units.
The Garmin AP is the hands down winner from my experience in both performance and pilot interface.
 
No real experience with GRT AP, I know that I don't trust the Trutrak units.
The Garmin AP is the hands down winner from my experience in both performance and pilot interface.

I have a GRT autopilot and it is much more solid than the TruTrak. However, as I fly IFR more and more, I don't like the AP dependency on the PFD. If I loose the PFD a lot of things stop working. I am upgrading to the Garmin AP for this reason, just to gain an extra level of redundancy and I like the interface of the Garmin GMC a lot better than navigating through the GRT menus.

I think the GRT AP would be a great choice if you used a GRT mini to drive it.
 
Mike above has given an excellent summary. The ‘add two servos to your EFIS’ autopilots are less expensive than the stand-alone designs. But that also means you lose a level of redundancy - lose the efis, you also lose the AP. For about the price of the cost savings, you can re-gain the redundancy by adding a mini efis. Your choice, imho.
Personally I use the GRT EFIS - Trio Pro combo. Normal use, I control it with the EFIS. (I don’t find any difficulty with the menu options as long as I remember the shortcut-push the right knob (Hx) to bring up the autopilot menu). But if the efis should die, one flip of a toggle switch, next to the AP, and the Trio is in ‘stand-alone mode’, and can fly the airplane without the efis.
 
I hadn't considered the GRT Mini A/P controlling the servos if the EFIS goes out. Sounds like a notable advantage over the G5.

Do you guys think the GNC355 is my best bet for the NAV source or would a GPS175 and second/separate radio have benefits? I'm concerned about space and simplicity.

I'm also quite clueless as to how a flight plan would be entered across these devices. It doesn't look like the EFIS can communicate with an iPad using Foreflight, but maybe that could happen via the GNC355 or GPS175?
 
.

Do you guys think the GNC355 is my best bet for the NAV source or would a GPS175 and second/separate radio have benefits? I'm concerned about space and simplicity.

If you're buying today, the GNC355 is on back-order for some months....
A GPS 175 plus a Trig TY91 com would save you a few dollars. The Trig can be remote-mounted and controlled by the 10.1 EFIS. If you're trying to save more money, your SL30 is a great nav-com. You can get ATIS by monitoring it on the standby frequency, as long as the primary frequency is not too busy, or if you have lots of time. Get a good handheld (and external antenna) as a back up.
 
I'm also quite clueless as to how a flight plan would be entered across these devices. It doesn't look like the EFIS can communicate with an iPad using Foreflight, but maybe that could happen via the GNC355 or GPS175?

I enter in my flight plan into my GTN650 and it pushes to the GRT. Other way around isn't possible, but also I dont need that when I am flying IFR. The GNC355/GPS175 does have Bluetooth in them and they talk to Garmin pilot. I don't know if it supports the transfer of flight plans both ways. But you would also lose traffic and weather, as your Garmin ecosystem doesn't have a Garmin ADS-B receiver.

If you went with a GNX375, that would handle your GPS NAV, Transponder and ADS-B In/Out, and then you could use the GRT ADS-B receiver to get ADS-B info into the GRT.
 
I enter in my flight plan into my GTN650 and it pushes to the GRT. Other way around isn't possible, but also I dont need that when I am flying IFR. The GNC355/GPS175 does have Bluetooth in them and they talk to Garmin pilot. I don't know if it supports the transfer of flight plans both ways. But you would also lose traffic and weather, as your Garmin ecosystem doesn't have a Garmin ADS-B receiver.

If you went with a GNX375, that would handle your GPS NAV, Transponder and ADS-B In/Out, and then you could use the GRT ADS-B receiver to get ADS-B info into the GRT.

I recently installed the Echo UAT for ADSB In/Out since I assumed I'd be keeping the GTX327 and getting a GNC355 or GPS175. Planning to wire it directly to the EFIS.

Not sure how I missed it, but looks like Foreflight can send flight plans to the GNC355/GPS175, and then push to the GRT EFIS as you mentioned.
 
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Does anyone know if having a second GRT Horizon 10.1 EFIS would be a suitable backup alternative to a GRT Mini A/P? I know the Mini has a lithium battery, but the airplane has dual batteries, dual bus wiring, and a magneto on one side (electronic on the other).
 
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