First order

I am getting ready to make an order for the -9 tail kit. (I hate the word empennage) I have a few questions before I order.

1. I have read about 100 posts on the advantage of manual - electric trim. I have always flown with a trim wheel and thought it was fine. Reading the posts, a few things came up I hadn't considered. Auto trim and weight. From what I read - I could install a manual trim, convert it to auto trim hooked to autopilot, but the weight would be more. Is that correct?

2. If I decide to go electric, is the Vans electric trim the best way to go?

3. When I am ready for the rest of the kit, I would like to get the QB for both the wings and fuselage. Reading online time logs I had it wrong - it looked like the fuselage took more time than the wing. If I can't afford both, which one would save me the most time and aggravation?

Any other tips on ordering, parts and options choices, and tool selections are welcome here or by pm. Thanks!

rockwoodrv9 said:

I am getting ready to make an order for the -9 tail kit. (I hate the word empennage) I have a few questions before I order.

1. I have read about 100 posts on the advantage of manual - electric trim. I have always flown with a trim wheel and thought it was fine. Reading the posts, a few things came up I hadn't considered. Auto trim and weight. From what I read - I could install a manual trim, convert it to auto trim hooked to autopilot, but the weight would be more. Is that correct?

2. If I decide to go electric, is the Vans electric trim the best way to go?

3. When I am ready for the rest of the kit, I would like to get the QB for both the wings and fuselage. Reading online time logs I had it wrong - it looked like the fuselage took more time than the wing. If I can't afford both, which one would save me the most time and aggravation?

Any other tips on ordering, parts and options choices, and tool selections are welcome here or by pm. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Preferably answered here because I'm interested in the same questions.

rockwoodrv9 said:

2. If I decide to go electric, is the Vans electric trim the best way to go?

Click to expand...

It is all Ray Allen servos and the hardware from Van's make installation easy.
I'm using the Vertical Power system with a Dynon Skyview, so the extra switches and LED indicators will need to get sold to someone else.

3. When I am ready for the rest of the kit, I would like to get the QB for both the wings and fuselage. Reading online time logs I had it wrong - it looked like the fuselage took more time than the wing. If I can't afford both, which one would save me the most time and aggravation?

Click to expand...

The wings took me (first time noob builder) 5 months to slow build. The fuselage kit probably takes a little bit longer than that to get it to the same state as the quick build. It took me a year to get the fuselage kit mostly done.

If you want take advantage of options like capacitive fuel senders, or the upgraded fuel caps, you will need to build the wings. Both of these kits are fun to build. The wings are a bit more tedious with all of the ribs, etc.

bruceh said:

It is all Ray Allen servos and the hardware from Van's make installation easy.
I'm using the Vertical Power system with a Dynon Skyview, so the extra switches and LED indicators will need to get sold to someone else.

If you want take advantage of options like capacitive fuel senders, or the upgraded fuel caps, you will need to build the wings. Both of these kits are fun to build. The wings are a bit more tedious with all of the ribs, etc.

Click to expand...

Good thoughts on the fuel senders. I didn't even know to consider that. Those are the things that make me wonder what else I may not even know I should have considered.

I guess I will be doing the wings because I do want to have the fuel senders after learning what they are. Thanks for the info. Im sure there are things in the fuselage that I may not know, but maybe by the time i get there, I will have learned a bit more!

you could go with slow build wings

and get Evan Johnson to build your fuel tanks: http://www.evansaviationproducts.com/

With respect to fuel tank senders. If you decide at some future point to use mogas, autofuel or another fuel that maybe ethenol based then capacitive fuel senders are inaccurate. I have gone for float senders for this reason.

...even in C-172s and 182s I find manual trim easier to use than electric. For that reason I have manual trim in my 9A. Those flying with manual trim in 9s and 9As say it requires only tiny bits of adjustment, since the trim tab is so large.
I did QB wings and fuse with my 9A and would not change if I were to do it again. When I bought my QB items, the added cost amounted to around $8 to $10/hr ... I thought that was a bargain.

I would like to toss my .02 in as well. First congrats on choosing the 9. I have a 9A with 200+ hours and love it.

Electric Trim...minimal weight..easy to operate and as suggested, very little imput to get the desired trim you need. Only real issue is where you make the wire disconnect connections in the tail. At some point you may remove the elevator to rebalance it if you fly off your time unpainted and then paint her afterwards. No big deal, just need to aware of it.

I built standard wings and a quickbuild fuselage. Wings for me took longer than planned, so decided to go QB fuselage. Felt the wings would be easier to build than the fuselage. Just my feelings. If money not an issue, go quickbuild on both. Also as one of the other posters suggested, if you plan on mogas as an option to the build then the capacitive fuel senders will not be usable. Building the tanks are not difficult, just get some qualified help to do them.

Enjoy the journey.!

Steve Koziol said:

... Also as one of the other posters suggested, if you plan on mogas as an option to the build then the capacitive fuel senders will not be usable....
Enjoy the journey.!

Click to expand...

Why couldn't they just be recalibrated? In the case where you'd be switching back and forth between different fuels, there are ways to compensate for different dielectric constants.

If you empty the tanks of 100ll before filling with mogas or vice-versa, then re-calibrating would conceivably work. However if you have an unknown ratio of 100ll to mogas, as would happen if you left home with tanks full of mogas but bought 100ll somewhere on your x-c flight, you would have yet another unknown dielectric constant.

In other words, the dielectric constant would not be.....constant

How about a button you press after a fill-up that says "I'm full". The system should already know what empty looks like, so just interpolate the output of the senders between those two points. Even if it isn't linear, who cares? Many are using fuel totalizers (that don't care much what liquid is going through them) to keep track of fuel anyway. Or, an EIS, if it knows the shape of the calibration curve, could adjust all the coefficients; the effects of dielectric constant on capacitance is linear.

Instrumentation engineer's stock answer: "What do you want it to read?"

Cool Idea

Miles, I think there might be a market for a box that does just that. The great thing about experimental aviation is we can all make it the way we want it. A lot of folks have found a way to make some extra cash building new whiz-bang boxes for the experimental aviation market. Go for it!

If you're running an EFIS or EIS, and it works like I think it might, it won't require a box, just a software update.

My 7A was of the slow build variety.

If I had to do it all over again and had to choose only one quick build option, it would definitely be the quick build wings.
Quick build wings eliminate all the repetitive work and the fuel tanks are completed and tested. The fuselage was fun as you can finally see your project resembling an airplane and you can begin your customization of you cabin.

Std wings, QB fuse

I did standard wings and QB fuse, and will do the same thing again, if I choose to repeat (likely). I really enjoyed the wings. Evan built my tanks, but I think I was being too gun shy there.

I have both roll and pitch electric trim. I've not flown yet. I would probably choose to go manual and eliminate the roll trim in RV#2.

Rick 90432 flying June 2012.

My vote would also be for QB wings. I hate repetition and the fuselage was an interesting build.

rockwoodrv9 said:

I am getting ready to make an order for the -9 tail kit. (I hate the word empennage) I have a few questions before I order.

3. When I am ready for the rest of the kit, I would like to get the QB for both the wings and fuselage. Reading online time logs I had it wrong - it looked like the fuselage took more time than the wing. If I can't afford both, which one would save me the most time and aggravation?

Any other tips on ordering, parts and options choices, and tool selections are welcome here or by pm. Thanks!

Click to expand...

As a first time builder, I went with QB wings and fuselage. Had my airplane built on my own 100%, except painting. I made an IFR panel and the whole project took me 2.000 labour hours, not including study and internet surfing.

If I had to do it again, and in the next future I will start an RV7, I will buy QB wings and SB fuselage.

Slow build fuselage because:
- I guess it is the funny part of the project;
- I save on shipping and on initial cost (QB difference is $5480 for approx. 300 hours of work saved = $18/hour);
- I don't want another whole QB, but want to tell friends...hey I started from aluminium sheet (not really true for a kit airplane, but...);
- I can shoot paint and epoxy primer quickly and without getting intoxicated (spent a few hours inside the tail to make the job on the finished fuse) and I can make my mods BEFORE assembling parts (routing conduit under the seats; priming stiffeners on the firewall - cabin side).
All of this for approx. 300 hours added work (see Mike Schipper excellent site for a step by step working progress: be careful that he was a quick slow-builder and got its fuselage to a QB stadium in less than 270 hours).

On the other side, having a slow build wing is good is price saving is a must. But I can easily argue that they include a lot of repetitive work. And they take at least 300 hours work to go. This is for me a good trade-off: I will go with QB wings again.

Take note that the main part of the job is not the frame of the airplane (i.e.: tail, wings and fuselage) but the remaining part, unless you decide to go with essential equipments (i.e.: altimeter, airspeed indicator, VSI, compass, one radio and one XNDR or an EFIS/EMS like the SkyView, no lights, no backup instruments, no bells, etc...).

Now, I spent on the project approx. the following hours: 240 tail; 140 QB wings; 350 QB fuselage, 760 finishing and the remaining 500 hours were for firewall forward, extra instruments, electrics and some mods.

I believe I can cut those hours by half and maybe less if I go again with a QB and make an essential RV. My next airplane will be:
- taildragger (stronger on grass);
- minimal instruments and avionics (SkyView and its XNDR, SL40, maybe panel mounted Garmin 296, ELT);
- minimal electrical system (battery, alternator, starter, strobe lights, flaps motor, fuel pump, electric trim and an aux. 12V socket; no internal or external other lights, no backup instruments, no heated pitot, etc...) custom made (no Van's harness; already have drawings, which are quite useful) and maybe all fused ("tiltable" under the panel fuse holder);
- no brakes on passenger side;
- no external steps (OK for a non-A);
- Bonaco brake lines (no aluminium on gear legs);
- ultralight seats and backs, front and baggage carpets, side covers;
- floating senders (stock in QB wings);
- manual aileron trim;

I plan to build my fuselage in my living room firewall back as far as I can (included canopy, to disassemble before removing the fuselage from the house) and then mount the engine and the gear legs and have it painted.

To be extremely concise: keep it is simple is the main time saving advice; build it IN your house is the second one. Other choices do affect building time, but in a minor way.

Try to order all harwdare in advance: you will save a lot of hours researching parts later.
Buy a band saw or at least an electric metal saw: it will save a lot of time when fabricating all the parts from aluminium angles.
Another big time saving would be NOT priming. But I didn't go with that choice and have not the courage to do in the future. But definitely this will save a lot of time. Or at least find a good mono-component prime or spray prime.

Only my 2 cents. I made one airplane and have not any tecnical background (working on the law branch).

Good advice

Camillo,
Great advice. I will look at the info on the extra time routing things with the quickbuild fuselage. My plans are for qb for both the wings and fuselage, but maybe I will build the fuselage if the time savings isn't that great.

I plan to go as simple as I can - especially with the panel. Technology changes so fast, I don't want to be behind the game. The firewall forward is my biggest concern. I know I will be getting some help with that. I don't have much experience in engines and such.

Lucky for me, there are several other builders in Colorado that have been very helpful. I visited two of them last week and saw their shop set up, tools, and where they are in their builds. I learned more on those visits than I thought I would. Another builder flew in and gave me a ride and said he would come over and help when needed. What a community!

Thanks again for the advice.

rockwood

You're welcome, Rockwood.
If you'll have some help, you're half way. Actually, building a Van's, with their manual and their complete kit, is not difficult. Only a few tasks are difficult. Mainly, is a matter of perseverance.
Good luck!
Camillo

rockwoodrv9 said:

I am getting ready to make an order for the -9 tail kit. (I hate the word empennage) I have a few questions before I order.

1. I have read about 100 posts on the advantage of manual - electric trim. I have always flown with a trim wheel and thought it was fine. Reading the posts, a few things came up I hadn't considered. Auto trim and weight. From what I read - I could install a manual trim, convert it to auto trim hooked to autopilot, but the weight would be more. Is that correct?

2. If I decide to go electric, is the Vans electric trim the best way to go?

3. When I am ready for the rest of the kit, I would like to get the QB for both the wings and fuselage. Reading online time logs I had it wrong - it looked like the fuselage took more time than the wing. If I can't afford both, which one would save me the most time and aggravation?

Any other tips on ordering, parts and options choices, and tool selections are welcome here or by pm. Thanks!

Click to expand...

You hate the word empennage, it is French, not English.

1) Your decision will be eased with knowing if you plan an autopilot or not.

2) Ordering Van's will provide future support from Van's.

3) I would get the wing QB.

autopilot

NickAir said:

You hate the word empennage, it is French, not English.

1) Your decision will be eased with knowing if you plan an autopilot or not.

2) Ordering Van's will provide future support from Van's.

3) I would get the wing QB.

Click to expand...

Nick,
For the record- I speak French, but still hate the word empannage!

As for the autopilot, I do plan to have an autopilot eventually. I would like to install the servos and wiring as I build so I don't have to modify later. My only experience with an autopilot is one that didn't work in an old Piper 180.

I am at a complete loss on what is a good system for the 9. In Vans catalog, they offer digitrak and digiflight, but not sure if that is the best option. I am not looking for the ultimate AP, but one that I can trust and 2 axis.

1. When do I need to install the servos?
2. If I get the QB wings and fuselage, how does that complicate the servo install?
3. Do I need to buy the whole system or can I buy the servos and wiring now and the unit later?
4. Do servos only work for specific autopliots or can they be used by different units?

Im sure those are basic questions and show my ignorance and I appreciate any info that would help me get it right the first time. I hate the "do over".

Thanks.

"Tail section"

Autopilots are an evolving technology. For RV's/experimentals, (non certified systems,) have come along way in the last 8 years. You have great choices with incredible options such as: one button tear drop pattern evac turn to fly you out of harms way that you flew into of IMC or a smoke situation. You are navigated right back on your course reciprocal 180 degrees. The cost is low for a dual axis compared to a certified system of even a single axis. I love mine and it handles turbulance very well. My alt hold is basic and very appreciated when assigned an alt to hold. Some have accent and decent programming availble too. Connected to a gps, they do follow the gps route you laid in. You can now fly across the country and only fly with the control stick for take off and landing. You are in lucky times with the affordable autopilots not generally available until recently. Just take off, set for cruise and set the alarm to wake you in 5 hours for a landing, (possible although just kidding.)

Just a thought regarding your autopilot install/pre purchase issue, as follows:*
You could install the servo mounting brackets in the needed locations and prep the route of wiring during the build and delay any purchase of autopilot system. *Wait to purchase and install until you are ready to tackle your panel. Many have pre purchased autopilots then new updates /upgraded *components / fixes were factory changed prior to a first flight. They needed to return components for upgrades causing dissasembly and extra hastle. This happens with avionics too. This sort of thing has stung many of us. Don't purchase early. Just prep your RV. There may be something you identify that fits your needs later that is not even on a design process yet.

rockwoodrv9 said:

Nick,
For the record- I speak French, but still hate the word empannage!

As for the autopilot, I do plan to have an autopilot eventually. I would like to install the servos and wiring as I build so I don't have to modify later. My only experience with an autopilot is one that didn't work in an old Piper 180.

I am at a complete loss on what is a good system for the 9. In Vans catalog, they offer digitrak and digiflight, but not sure if that is the best option. I am not looking for the ultimate AP, but one that I can trust and 2 axis.

1. When do I need to install the servos?
2. If I get the QB wings and fuselage, how does that complicate the servo install?
3. Do I need to buy the whole system or can I buy the servos and wiring now and the unit later?
4. Do servos only work for specific autopliots or can they be used by different units?

Im sure those are basic questions and show my ignorance and I appreciate any info that would help me get it right the first time. I hate the "do over".

Thanks.

Click to expand...

I have Dynon 2 axis autopilot (servos SV32) linked to the SkyView. It is smooth as o a liner. Excellent choice. Couldn't have been more happy. Autopilot is not necessary, but it sure helps on long flights to let you rest or study charts for navigation.

I agree to not buy it until the project is 90%. Bracket install is very easy and could be a retrofit on a finished airplane (I'm tlking about Dynon). Actually, the wing bracket mounts in a few hours with no extra holes. For the fuselage bracket (pitch servo) you have to install the bracket making some holes on a vertical spar and - as per instructions - on the belly. This could cause some cosmetic issues in a painted airplane. But...no one of my buddies has installed the bracket making holes on the belly. The n holes along the spar lets you rise the airplane from that bracket. I believe it is not necessary at all making those holes. To save maximum time, you can install the pitch bracket before riveting the tail cone skin which arrives unriveted with the fuse QB. And this happens approx. 1 year before completion. Good enough to understand if that autopilot is available or going out of production.