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RV-9A as an ELSA ???

B

Bill Ervin

Active Member
liteplane said:
N236LS ELSA RV9A Lite Sport is at OSH HB camping LYC O235, Carbon fiber panel, Dynon FD 180, Garmin 496, Garmin 196, FL 760 com, Becker XPDR, Led Lighting, Led anti colision, Leather Interior. There are only two of these planes built. If you are looking for a Light Sport aircraft, this is the ultimate bang for the buck. TT 75 hrs $125,000.00 . Photos at liteplane.com .
Jay Kurtz
[email protected]
863-701-0000
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Jay

Since Van's doesn't offer an RV9A ELSA kit how can you certify one under ELSA rules. I can see flying it Experimental/Amateur built under lightsport rules if you can make it meet all the requirements. But how do you register it under ELSA.

Honestly curious about this, not trying to stir the pot.
 
liteplane said:
N236LS ELSA RV9A Lite Sport
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Jay,

You should use great caution advertising this airplane as an ELSA. It is not, by definition, an ELSA. It is actually an EAB, which you have stated meets the light sport requirements and can be flown by a Sport Pilot.

Potential buyers should educate themselves thoroughly before buying this airplane if they plan to fly it under Sport Pilot rules.
 
RV9A ELSA

This aircraft IS an ELSA - not an EAB. In order to qualify for that status one must have had his paperwork in before Jan 31 2008. If one made that date, he has until Jan 31 2010 to have the airworthiness certificate issued. This is the second and last Rv9/9A built that meets the above requirements,and therefore meets the standard of Experimental Light Sport. Any aircraft that does not meet the above requirements, will have to be certificated as an EAB. There are currently several people building RV9A EABs that will meet the criteria of the Light Sport Rule. If someone wants to take advantage of the Light Sport Rule, in my opinion, there is no finer aircraft available that meets the mission profile. If this aircraft fits your needs, please call.
Jay Kurtz
863-701-0000
 
Since this has 75 hours TT, please post a copy of your Airworthiness Certificate.
 
So it's a single person plane? I would assume it has a gross weight limit of 1320. Subtract the empty weight and that leaves 404 pounds. With full fuel (36 gallons), that only leaves 188 pounds for the pilot and 'stuff'. I suppose if you only put 20 gallons of gas, that would allow for an adult and a small child without bags. I can see where that might be workable I guess, as long as the adult isn't as heavy as I am :eek:.
 
RV-9

Our RV-9 (EAB) is well over 1100 lbs empty with just a few "goodies." O-320, fixed wood prop, VFR inst (single Dynon), basic seats, carpet, etc., TW.

I'm sure you can do it, but building to 916 empty would leave it pretty spartan.

Also - how it the world do you slow it down to meet the 120kt max? Ours will run better than 120 at half throttle easily. Especially under 1320 lbs.
 
IMO this is the problem with VAF classified...

Edited: My remarks are no longer relevant since the comments were removed from the classified section and relocated in this thread.

... and why it'll never be as popular (in it's current form) as some of the other classifieds that don't allow comments.

I doubt the buyer needs comments from the peanut gallery on how heavy the two occupants can be and how much fuel he/she can carry without breaking the LSA rules.

Jay, It looks like a great bird... you should post a few interior shots on your website.

Stan Smith
 
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I would think the "comments from the peanut gallery" are exactly what this site is about. It is a forum for discussing best practices, opinions, thoughts about building / flying / using RVs. It isn't, and isn't meant to be a commercial classifieds section - and I don't want it to be. That's what TAP and a host of others are for.

There have been several threads discussing light sport RV-9's and maybe there isn't need for another one. But I think many people find the topic interesting. I welcome the opinions of others here. If I didn't, I wouldn't visit a forum site like this.

If you're going to use this forum to sell a light sport RV-9 A conversion (it looks like the original poster is in that business), then I think it's fair to talk about it a little.
 
JDRhodes said:
Our RV-9 (EAB) is well over 1100 lbs empty with just a few "goodies." O-320, fixed wood prop, VFR inst (single Dynon), basic seats, carpet, etc., TW.

I'm sure you can do it, but building to 916 empty would leave it pretty spartan.

Also - how it the world do you slow it down to meet the 120kt max? Ours will run better than 120 at half throttle easily. Especially under 1320 lbs.
Click to expand...

They could do it but I would like to know how.

My -9 tip-up came in at 990 lbs with the O-290-D2 and 9 lb Catto prop.

The plane is fully primed on the inside and has an interior by Rustoleum, leather covered seats, Dynon D100 EFIS and D10 EMS, A200 radio, stereo intercom, AirGizmo holding my G496, Affordable panels panel, throttle quadrant by Dayton, and a few other items.

If you left off the landing, taxi, position, and strobe lights, you could cut some weight. Round every corner, use a thinner canopy, and a few other tricks, you could get it down to their numbers.

As for the speed thing, that is easier than you think. I know of one -9A with a 108 HP O-235 who cruises at 150 MPH (127 knots). Make it more of a climb prop, leave off the gear leg fairings and wheel pants and that same plane will be well below the 120 knot LSA limit.

Of course, I really enjoy having a 760 lb useful load without exaggerating my GW.
 
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N941WR said:
Of course, I really enjoy having a 760 lb useful load without exadurating my GW.
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Oh Bill, please, you have got to define for me "exadurating"! That is a fantastic sounding word and I want to use it correctly! :D
 
Other tricks?

N941WR said:
They could do it but I would like to know how.

My -9 tip-up came in at 990 lbs with the O-290-D2 and 9 lb Catto prop.

The plane is fully primed on the inside and has an interior by Rustoleum, leather covered seats, Dynon D100 EFIS and D10 EMS, A200 radio, stereo intercom, AirGizmo holding my G496, Affordable panels panel, throttle quadrant by Dayton, and a few other items.

If you left off the landing, taxi, position, and strobe lights, you could cut some weight. Round every corner, use a thinner canopy, and a few other tricks, you could get it down to their numbers.
Click to expand...

I'd be curious to know some of those tricks too... especially considering the plane does have lights and a leather interior! This could be a very useful discussion.
 
Speed control...

What are the rules for max speed in LSA?

If I install a throttle cable that maxes out at a certain % of full throttle (say 60% WOT), Is that legal? Since there are no flying cops with radar guns, who would know? I also assume that ANY LSA would have a safety margin (VNE) WAY beyond the Max LSA speed. One look at those slippery Glass baby's would make me think a moment of inattention (Esp. by a low time pilot like me) would get that A/S needle pegged!

Dkb



JDRhodes said:
Our RV-9 (EAB) is well over 1100 lbs empty with just a few "goodies." O-320, fixed wood prop, VFR inst (single Dynon), basic seats, carpet, etc., TW.

I'm sure you can do it, but building to 916 empty would leave it pretty spartan.

Also - how it the world do you slow it down to meet the 120kt max? Ours will run better than 120 at half throttle easily. Especially under 1320 lbs.
Click to expand...
 
comfortcat said:
What are the rules for max speed in LSA?
If I install a throttle cable that maxes out at a certain % of full throttle (say 60% WOT), Is that legal? Since there are no flying cops with radar guns, who would know?
Click to expand...

The max speed rule is based on the maximum continuous power rating on your engine.
Of course, you can lie about anything. And you could even save money on insurance. No need to have it if it isn't going to pay when they find out that you were lying.
 
Mel said:
The max speed rule is based on the maximum continuous power rating on your engine.
Of course, you can lie about anything. And you could even save money on insurance. No need to have it if it isn't going to pay when they find out that you were lying.
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A lot of times the rule Mel mentioned is bent by using a prop pitched such that the throttle needs to be pulled back to stay within the max. RPM limit, thus producing a max. speed that meets the 120 Kt limit.
This does not meet the requirement. The rule says max. continuous power rating not max. RPM rating. You must use both max. continuous RPM and the manifold pressure that produces max continuous power.

Their is also a minimum payload requirement formula (which I can't remember the details of at the moment) that requires you to have enough useful load to carry a certain amount of fuel based on the HP rating of the engine, and still have enough useful load to carry two 190 pound passengers...Do you remember it Mel?

Based on the advertised empty weight of the airplane being discussed, I don't think it could possibly meet the requirement.
 
Airspeed of LSA's

is in Calibrated Air Speed..
that means if you have the power to go up to the LSA 10k altitude limit and can go 120CAS you've got a pretty fast machine.
Talk to the folks at Cubcrafters about this and their 180HP Cub LSA.
Interesting stuff.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
Their is also a minimum payload requirement formula (which I can't remember the details of at the moment) that requires you to have enough useful load to carry a certain amount of fuel based on the HP rating of the engine, and still have enough useful load to carry two 190 pound passengers...Do you remember it Mel?
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Actually Scott, I don't remember the formula off the top of my head, however, that formula is only for S-LSAs. It does not apply to E-LSA.
 
RV8iator said:
is in Calibrated Air Speed..
that means if you have the power to go up to the LSA 10k altitude limit and can go 120CAS you've got a pretty fast machine.
Talk to the folks at Cubcrafters about this and their 180HP Cub LSA.
Interesting stuff.
Click to expand...

This is another one of the twists that has been done with the rules but it is not correct.
As an example...it is not possible to get max rated continuous power at 10,000 ft. with very many (probably any) of the engines typically used in LSA aircraft.
The only way Cubcrafters is working around the rule is by putting there own data plate on the engine limiting it to a max continuous power rating of 80 HP.
 
Mel said:
Actually Scott, I don't remember the formula off the top of my head, however, that formula is only for S-LSAs. It does not apply to E-LSA.
Click to expand...

Yea...that's right. Wouldn't apply in this case but probably should. An E-LSA airplane with only a 400 lb useful load but a 216 lb fuel capacity doesn't sound like an airplane that can be operated within the intent of the rules. Not and be practical anyway.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
Their is also a minimum payload requirement formula (which I can't remember the details of at the moment) that requires you to have enough useful load to carry a certain amount of fuel based on the HP rating of the engine, and still have enough useful load to carry two 190 pound passengers...Do you remember it Mel?
Click to expand...
Don't quote me but I think the formula is on the order of Max Gross Weight minus the weight of 2 190 lb. occupants minus 1/2 of maximum continuous hp rating equals maximum empty weight. But again, this only applies to S-LSA.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
This is another one of the twists that has been done with the rules but it is not correct.
As an example...it is not possible to get max rated continuous power at 10,000 ft. with very many (probably any) of the engines typically used in LSA aircraft.
The only way Cubcrafters is working around the rule is by putting there own data plate on the engine limiting it to a max continuous power rating of 80 HP.
Click to expand...

I don't see what isn't correct about it. If the engine manufacturer gives a max contious rpm, that is what folks (including the FAA) should follow.

The reason why this seems incorrect is because the majority of SLSAs on the market use the rotax 912 UL/ULS. That engine has a max continous power setting that is about 90% of max power, so one can only maintain max contious up to about 3,000ft.

However, if a plane was built with the 914 turbo which has a max continous of 100hp and can maintain that up to 15K ft they could take advantage of the CAS/TAS difference and still be completely legal.

Another example is the Jabiru 3300. The early models had a max RPM of 3300, but a max continous of 2750, which (based on fuel consumption) seems to equal 60-65% power. I don't know why they set it that low, but I do know that the early models, if not baffled correctly, tended to overheat. The new Jabiru 3300 comes in two models. The 3300A has a max rpm of 3300 and a max contious of 3150. The 3300L has a max rpm of 3300 but a max contious of 2850.

A lot of the VW conversions are like that as well. You can run than full power for a short time, but if you do it for a while you shorten the life of the engine.
 
mcjon77 said:
...However, if a plane was built with the 914 turbo which has a max continous of 100hp and can maintain that up to 15K ft they could take advantage of the CAS/TAS difference and still be completely legal...
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Wouldn't be legal at all above 10k ft as LSA's are limited to 10,000 ft MSL.
 
rv7boy said:
Wouldn't be legal at all above 10k ft as LSA's are limited to 10,000 ft MSL.
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Ah, but LSAs are NOT limited to 10,000 ft MSL at all. In fact, our S-LSAs have a service ceiling of 14,000, and only because I didn't have O2 with me when I tested it.

The 10,000 foot rule applies (actually, applied) to the Sport Pilot rating, not the LSA category. The new rule states 10,000 MSL [OR] 2,000 AGL, whichever is higher. This allows Sport Pilots to fly over the Rockies within 2000 AGL, if their LSA airplane is capable of such flight, which many are.
 
You are correct and I stand corrected! I knew I had read it somewhere and found it in Rule 61.315 which clearly is in regard to the Sport Pilot, not the Light Sport airplane.

Man, all these new rules are confusing!

Thanks for correcting me. :eek:

P.S. So the new rule states 10,000 MSL [OR] 2,000 AGL, whichever is higher. Then in order to legally reach 15K feet in the previous example the turbo'd 914 LSA would have to be flying near a 13,000 ft mountain...:eek:
 
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rv7boy said:
So the new rule states 10,000 MSL [OR] 2,000 AGL, whichever is higher. Then in order to legally reach 15K feet in the previous example the turbo'd 914 LSA would have to be flying near a 13,000 ft mountain...:eek:
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That is correct, assuming you're flying under Sport Pilot rules.
 
OK, so why?

OK, so other than already having a plane, why would someone want to try to get an RV-9 as a LSA? Seems the 12 is about the same width, and has weight and speed restrictions based on LSA. I understand the Rotax may be an issue with some, but I could still put a small Lyc (O-200?) and still qualify right?

I'm building a 9A right now, but There may come a day where an LSA would better fit my mission (in 20 years or so)


rvbuilder2002 said:
A lot of times the rule Mel mentioned is bent by using a prop pitched such that the throttle needs to be pulled back to stay within the max. RPM limit, thus producing a max. speed that meets the 120 Kt limit.
Click to expand...
 
comfortcat said:
I understand the Rotax may be an issue with some, but I could still put a small Lyc (O-200?) and still qualify right?
Click to expand...

You could not build the -12 as an ELSA with that configuration. You would have to build it under EAB rules AND ensure that it complied with the 51% rule AND ensure that it still fits within the LSA performance limitations.
 
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