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What... AN RV-4 "nosed over"

LifeofReiley

LifeofReiley

Well Known Member
I thought you tail dragging folks stated this was almost impossible?
Does anybody have more information on this?


IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 314RV Make/Model: RV4 Description: RV-4
Date: 11/14/2007 Time: 1851

Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Minor

LOCATION
City: HAYWARD State: CA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON LANDING, NOSED OVER ONTO THE PROP, HAYWARD, CA
 
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You mean like in July we had a biplane flyin, on one of the demonstrations with two stearman, the lead stearman came in to fast, hit the brakes at the end of the runway and flipped over. I think the stearman have the little wheel in the back. I did laugh my behind off because these guys think there special out here. Of course I didn't start laughing until I saw the guy climb out.
 
Why?

Not sure why the negative thread? Historically, Taildraggers probably go over on their nose more often than Tri Gears, almost always due to pilot error, ground loops, braking, etc...
I personally put one on its nose training many years ago; pilot error. I was involved in a "near miss" on the ground last summer and the offending pilot put his beautiful Waco on its nose; pilot error.
However, tail wheel RV's, while not immune, dont seem to suffer the same fate as they are pretty tame tailwheel airplanes compared to most.
As far as Tail Wheel pilot attitudes, whatever. I fly tailwheel because that is what I enjoy. To each his own.
Still hope people think twice before posting negative comments in a forum intented to support all of us in our hobby and lifestyle.
 
Taken Out of Context

I don't believe anyone EVER said a TD flip is "impossible". Quite the opposite, really. Perhaps the difference you misunderstand is that the TD design is less susceptable to runway/taxiway conditions inducing a flip while pilot error or brake malfunction is a greater hazard.
As to (Allbee's) laughing at someone's misfortune - I don't know which is worse: you taking such delight or you admitting to it publicly.
 
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deep seated feeling of inadequacy

Hairy chested taildragger pilots, RELAX. It's just a nose dragger trying to asuage his deep seated feelings of inadequacy and inferiority! :D

Seriously, like JonJay I fly tail draggers because that's what I enjoy, and also because I like the way they look! Doesn't matter to me which someone builds or flies!
 
Pilot saying about ground loops and gear-up landing...

"Theres's those who have and those who will!" Which are you?;)
 
you can hit me in the head with a 2x4 and I will still feel the same way about these people, sorry
 
Reading the report of the accident, it say the plane nosed over onto the prop.

Not flipped over onto the canopy.

I can make almost any tail dragger---specially light ones like RV's---nose over onto the prop, just by picking up the tail with my hand, and lifting it high enough.
 
i never knew

There was all this machoism amongst tail wheel nose wheel pilots. I looked at both and chose the one that I thought would suit me best. I really want to see where im going.I did not have any to sit in so I chose nose wheel. Now I wish I had gone tail wheel but only because of the nose wheel issues. When I went to sun n fun and we landed we had to taxi at about 30-40 mph I can honestly say im glad I’ll be able to see where im going to flip over at.:rolleyes:
not to be negative but ireally dont give a **** what someone thinks about my skills or plane. when they contribute some $$$$$$$ then they have a say. as far as laughing at someones misfortune, well that would be easy to do if they just spouted off to me how real men flew taildraggers or some **** like that while me and my son were cleaning bug off the wings. they are out there, they know who they are. this brings to mind the old saying "he who lives in a glass house should not throw stones."
 
Pilot saying about ground loops, gear-up landings and RV trike flipovers...

Vern said:
"Theres's those who have and those who will!" Which are you?;)
Click to expand...
The bottom line is that flying a TD takes slightly more skill. The number of TD pilots who get all puffed up about it seems to match the number of trike pilots who take a perverse pleasure from the misfortune of others.
 
I do both

I have the good fortune of having one of each. I love flying my Cessna 140 and still have it after flying my RV-6A. The nose wheeled RV is simple to land compaired to the 140 but both can bite you if not paying attention.
 
Low n Slow said:
The bottom line is that flying a TD takes slightly more skill. The number of TD pilots who get all puffed up about it seems to match the number of trike pilots who take a perverse pleasure from the misfortune of others.
Click to expand...

A 1:1 ratio sounds about right. I take a perverse pleasure from the misfortune of those who get all puffed up about TD's. The other two of you are cool in my book :)

But seriously this nosedragger vs. taildragger b....... is getting pretty farginng old. Case in point, I asked a question about blind riveting the outboard panels on my 8A QB recently and one a.......comment was (and I paraphrase) "why would you want to do it that way? oh I guess you are different from the rest of us - you fly nosedraggers after all." Now tell me what the h... that had to do with rivets?

Ok, enough ranting. BTW, my first comment was just in jest. The way I see it: if it flies and you're at the controls, you're ok in my book.

Later,
 
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TD & Trike two different things

TD & TRIKE are two different things, with totally different and almost completely unrelated mechanisms involved in getting the plane on the back. TD nose tips or tip-overs seem to be more due to pilot control, Trike's seems to be less in control of the pilot and more structurally dependant, at least in RV's.

It's sad, to prove to them self and relieve doubt of possible real or precived deficiencies in their gear preference, people put down the other choice, with irrelevant straw man arguments. Reminds me of politics.

learn2flyue9.jpg
 
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Originally Posted by Vern
"Theres's those who have and those who will!" Which are you?

Boy I feel better. I've got the ground loop out of the way and doubt I will ever own a plane with retracts. :D
 
An Objective Data Attempt!

In March 2005, I attempted to gather some relevant objective data regarding RV ground mishaps. I posted the following message on the SoCal RV-List:

SoCALers,

In an attempt to gather some related facts, I decided to review all the NTSB accident reports for RVs as listed on Dan's website. I counted the number of ground mishaps (landing roll, takeoff roll, and taxi) for nose-gear and tailwheel RVs. I discounted all other causes such as engine failure, off-airport landings, stall/spin, etc. Here's what I found:

Nose-Gear Ground Mishaps: 21 including 1 taxi contact, 1 flat nose gear tire, and 1 student pilot loss of control.

Tailwheel Ground Mishaps: 31 including 2 taxi contacts, 1 blown main gear tire, 1 powered nose over, and 1 intentional ground loop.

Note: These statistics do not compensate for the numbers of nose-gear vs. tailwheel RVs or their relative hours flown. (. . . in other words, ground mishaps per hours flown)

Note: I think Van's Notice on the Nose Gear Leg and Nose Wheel Fork may have been prompted by the Nov. 3, 2004 fatal accident involving nose gear bounce, nose gear collapse, and subsequent nose-over of an RV-6A. The private pilot was killed, and the private-rated passenger was seriously injured. From what I can tell from the NTSB accident reports, there are two things that RV nose-gear pilots must strictly avoid: bouncing the nose gear (hard) and landing at soft fields with subsequent nose-gear failure and nose-over (loss of pitch control on the ground).

Note: From what I can tell, tailwheel pilots must watch out for loss of lateral control on the ground, particularly on landing and particularly in gusty conditions.

A personal observation/opinion: Although less nose-gear mishaps are reported, they seem to result in more serious injuries (due to nose-overs) than tailwheel mishaps.

Another personal observation/opinion: I hate to admit this, since I'm planning to be an RV "nose-gear guy." but many of the NTSB nose-gear ground mishaps seem to be due to ham-fisted (or ham-footed) piloting. Tailwheel pilots seem to succumb more to uncontrollable ground gusts and that sort of thing rather than ham-fisted/footed piloting. I'm going to guess that low-time pilots trained in nose-gear Cessnas and Pipers are more likely to go for a nose-gear configuration. Also, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view), the Cessna and Piper nose-gear designs (pneumatic, damped, and steerable) are more forgiving than Van's design. Van's nose-gear design is certainly simpler and more efficient, but it also requires more care with regard to piloting technique and adjustment.

Well, that's it - - some facts, some personal opinions, and some food for thought!

Take Care! (to all RV nose-gear and tailwheel pilots!)

Bill Palmer
RV-8A QB In-Progress
 
nose n' tail draggers

Boy, the never ending debate! I'm building a 7A....that been said, I think the 7looks great (read better) on the ground. They don't look too different in the air. My comfort level lead me to the nose wheeled 7A. So, if it's an RV, you're OK in my books...wheel or tail!
 
Bubblehead said:
Seriously, like JonJay I fly tail draggers because that's what I enjoy, and also because I like the way they look! Doesn't matter to me which someone builds or flies!
Click to expand...

I thought you told me you were gonna build a Nosedragger until you found out you had to start wearing panties while flying it? ;)
 
allbee said:
You mean like in July we had a biplane flyin, on one of the demonstrations with two stearman, the lead stearman came in to fast, hit the brakes at the end of the runway and flipped over. I think the stearman have the little wheel in the back. I did laugh my behind off because these guys think there special out here. Of course I didn't start laughing until I saw the guy climb out.
Click to expand...
What kind of person takes pleasure at someone else's misfortune. Very sad.
 
High performance

Regardless of the FAA's definition of "High performance", which the RV's don't fit, they are absolutely high performance airplanes. I tell all of the transition trainees that their flying skills and attention needs to be ratcheted up several notches when they fly their RV's. Weenie spam cans they're not. They're hotrods.

Consider the fact that most have 160 or more horsepower, many 180's and 200's. When you push the throttle, you've got a tiger by the tail! None of them had to ever use as much right rudder and it usually shows. We're running engines that Skyhawks UPGRADE to!

Visibility on the ground is limited in TD's and I fly one for a living but chose a nosegear for this reason. I think that we tend to become complacent, but either NG or TD will bite you if you stop paying attention until the engine is shut down.

My 02.,
 
High Performance

Now Pierre, I thought my lazy foot was just between you and me.

Jerry Isler
RV4 N455J
Honor graduate and survivor of Pierre's transition training.
(I highly recommend)
 
Baseball Dad said:
What kind of person takes pleasure at someone else's misfortune. Very sad.
Click to expand...

I wasn't trying to start anything here, just had a brush in with a set of pilots called a country club at our airfield and this was directed at them, not tail wheel pilots. I would never laugh at someone out of the blue. These people are horrible and lets leave it at that.
 
Not panties

Tram said:
I thought you told me you were gonna build a Nosedragger until you found out you had to start wearing panties while flying it? ;)
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Adult Depends with extra absorbency. :D Or was that you needed them for the TD?
cytoxin said:
There was all this machoism amongst tail wheel nose wheel pilots.
Click to expand...
What? It's all in your head. The perceived machismo may be just good natured fun like "real pilots fly taildraggers". It takes as much skill to fly a TRIKE well as a TD. I say WELL. TD are less forgiving of sloppy landing technique. If that means more machismo is needed to fly so be it.

I build & fly the TD because its:
lighter,
faster,
easier to build,
cost less,
less maintenance (nose gear & main brakes)
and to me more fun and easier to taxi.

TD'ers have actual steering verses a free-castering nose wheel w/ brake steering. Before you flame me I realize the "advantages" of the TD I list above range from small to slight advantages. One advantage of TD that is debatable is TD tend to be more suited for soft field, simply because the prop tips are further out of the dirt. That is true to an extent in my opinion. Nose gears on all TRIKES tend to plow more than mains on soft dirt. However the RV TRIKE does nice on grass/hard dirt and actually can get on & off just as quick or quicker than a TD. No RV is a real rough soft bush plane. They all are running little LAMB or 5x5 tires.

Build what you like and be happy. If any one gives you guff about it laugh it off. :D
 
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This discussion reminds me of a disclaimer that came with a flying model airplane when I was young. It read to the effect: "This airplane is guaranteed to fly. This guarantee does not imply that the operator can or will control it."

No RV tail dragger pilot should be feeling macho about his tail dragger skills. I've been flying tailwheel airplanes for 50 years. Other than the boot full of right rudder required during take off and climb, my RV-6 is the easiest tailwheel airplane I've ever flown. There are other aspects of flying RVs that make them a hot rod, but ground handling isn't one of them. Vanilla ice cream spam cans, RVs are not.

My wife has soloed in a Cessna 120. She does a good job flying it. When she has the controls in our RV-6 she's all over the sky. That's not a put down to her, but it does demonstrate that the RV-6 takes a far lighter control touch to fly it well.

If a pilot sets his airplane on it's nose, it's most likely because he screwed up, not because something is wrong with the plane. Any time we think we're immune from screwing up, we're ripe to be next to do it. We have a disease in our society. When we mess up, it must be someone else's fault. The way to safe operation is to be responsible for our own knowedge and skills.
 
hngrflyr said:
This discussion reminds me of a disclaimer that came with a flying model airplane when I was young. It read to the effect: "This airplane is guaranteed to fly. This guarantee does not imply that the operator can or will control it."........................
.......................We have a disease in our society. When we mess up, it must be someone else's fault. The way to safe operation is to be responsible for our own knowedge and skills.
Click to expand...


AMEN to that!!!

Jim Tambs
RV-6 purchased
RV-8 wings
 
Tram said:
It does look very RC doesn't it?

You are the second or third to tell me that.. :) The picture was taken from the window of an A-300.. :D
Click to expand...


All in fun... :)

I flew R/C for years, and my wife looked at the pic on my P/C screen, and asked if was an R/C. If I could have photo-shopped a big hand or leg next to it, I would have. :D

I already knew it was taken from the jet's window.

L.Adamson
 
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