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Odd ATC Request...anyone else get this?

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Ironflight

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
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A little over a week ago, Louise and I were flying out to SOCAL from Houston and stopped for fuel and to file out west of the Hill Country due to weather across West Texas. I filed from Sonora to Silver City (New Mexico), with the destination just a "WAG" until we saw how much deviating we'd need. Once we got past the weather and through El Paso, it was easy to see we could go farther, and I told Albuquerque Center "N188PD" is going to change our destination to Safford".

They acknowledged, cleared us to Safford via airways, and then came back a minute later with "N188PD, what is the reason for your change in destination?" I came back with "Cheaper fuel", and they didn't ask anything else, but that's the first time I have ever been asked to justify a destination change to ATC. I suspect DHS might have something to do with this, but that's just me being paranoid. Anyone else get this question recently?

Paul
 
Yep. We've heard that a number of times. Accompanied with a simple answer, and the silent big finger in the cockpit.
 
I have heard that also. I was heading home from the lake and heard some friends on the frequency towing a glider, so I decided to go see them. As soon as I asked for a change, they questioned me as to why.

Big Brother is watching:)
 
seems kinda dumb to be concerned about a destination change but not about the original destination? I'm pretty sure the bad guys are not going to say,

"center, I'd like to change my filed destination because it is an easier target today"
 
OK, I’ll ask the obvious question…what might be the response or consequence of responding “it’s none of your business” to such an inquiry? Is it a requirement that pilots provide reasons to ATC for enroute modifications to flight plans? If the new destination has some sensitivity to it I would understand an inquiry, but absent such circumstances, really, does ATC have a right to know WHY we're going where we're going?
 
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I ll let the ATC guys here answer "officially" as to logs being kept, reports being filed, etc. But I believe DHS is a very good guess, Paul.

For what it's worth, I've heard it asked of us at work when the reason isn't obvious ( mass weather diverts ). So don't think it's a GA thing only.

Joe

PS. Why come back with a "witty" response? Guy's just doing his job. Nothing good can come out of such a response. The battle uphill is steep enough, guys.
 
jferraro17 said:
PS. Why come back with a "witty" response? Guy's just doing his job. Nothing good can come out of such a response. The battle uphill is steep enough, guys.
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I agree....The truth is that in our case...the fuel was cheaper at the revised destination!
 
Last year I flew from Dallas KRBD to Tallahasse, FL. I filed IFR to Shreveport since Dallas was 800' overcast, with the intention of dropping IFR once I got into better weather over East Texas. I did just that, and advised Center that I was also amending my destination to a small unattended airport south of Jackson, MS.
Immediately Center wanted to know why. I told them that I was enroute to Florida and that I was stopping there for cheap fuel. Center's only other question was "could they go too?".
Hobby Stevens
RV6
 
I inquired when this happened to us three times on our Bahamas trip. An Air Traffic Controller on another forum said a diversion triggers the DEN, or Domestics Events Network. He described it as follows.


"Kind of like NORAD, it's a network of all the major players. FAA, military, FBI, border patrol, etc. So if something happens the infrastructure is already setup to deal with any issues"
 
Its a routine question now days. I get asked it every time. The reason is that any change in destination is considered one of many possible triggers that the aircraft may no longer be under the control of the pilot in command. If you get to flippant in your reply or refuse to answer you might find yourself with a escort.

George
 
Make up some replies

Let's have a brief contest to see who comes up with original replies...."My old girlfriend just called on my Bluetooth, so I'm going there!"

...or something similar:)

Best,
 
It has been routine since shortly after 9/11. Still, I always have that little thought in the back of my mind wondering if law enforcement might meet me at my new destination. :rolleyes:
 
I, too , have just started noticing this inquiry earlier this summer. I don't think it's been in place since 9/11 as I know I haven't just recently started changing destinations while enroute. Usually we do it for fuel and/or the winds aloft may be different than forecast. If you remember ealrier this year allegedly there were some plots to use small aircraft for terrorist purposes, so it is probably just a inquiry to make certain the change in destination is legitimate. Some ATC centers seem more regular in their inquiries than others.

Vic
 
really surprised about the replies here

We work hard in the atc system, our system is the most complex system in the world, working more than twice the air traffic from any other country. Just a little background, air carrier change in destination is a big thing, possible hijack, Biz jets the same, military requires notification to FSS so they can notify their base operations, we don't usually notify a supervisor of a change in destination for a general aviation aircraft unless his change has an impact on customs, adiz, or special requests from other gov't agencies.

What difference does it make if the controller asks you "say reason"? If you think it is an invasion of your privacy, then 1200. I wish I had a dollar for every time a pilot thanked me for the services we provide.

Holding up a silent middle finger, really? Seems like a slap in the face to every controller in the US.
 
Sometimes we're our own worst enemy

In addition to security maybe, just maybe, someone is trying to help or stay a little ahead of us. Ever read any accident reports where the pilot failed to inform ATC of ice buildup? How about ATC asking "do you wish to declare an emergency?" It seems more often than not, they're pulling teeth to get the info they need to best do their job. If my passenger were to tell me that they needed me to land NOW, I'm going to ask why, before I chop power and push down. A smart xxx answer from them probably isn't going to get the result they're looking for.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
turbosaaber said:
We work hard in the atc system, our system is the most complex system in the world, working more than twice the air traffic from any other country. Just a little background, air carrier change in destination is a big thing, possible hijack, Biz jets the same, military requires notification to FSS so they can notify their base operations, we don't usually notify a supervisor of a change in destination for a general aviation aircraft unless his change has an impact on customs, adiz, or special requests from other gov't agencies.

What difference does it make if the controller asks you "say reason"? If you think it is an invasion of your privacy, then 1200. I wish I had a dollar for every time a pilot thanked me for the services we provide.

Holding up a silent middle finger, really? Seems like a slap in the face to every controller in the US.
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I agree.

We live in a dangerous world and the next time the enemy is able to pull off another 9/11, it could be just such a scenario. They will be better trained, more sophisticated and will do it if they can. Changing a flight plan is an obvious method of getting to the target.

So how does ATC know if its the airplane itself as the weapon or 500 lbs of explosive in an RV? They don't.

There was time when a flight required X amount of fuel reserve at destination depending on the length of the flight. Some days it was impossible to carry that much fuel so to meet the regulations on the matter, the flight was released to a shorter destination subject to release to final destination should the wind and weather permit the shorter release with less fuel reserve required. Perhaps such a procedure still exists, I don't know.

The flying we do in our airplanes is not all that important in the total scheme of things in this hazardous world. I believe if we can not and do not adapt to that reality and hammer away at the system as if it were before 9/11, we may find ourselves eventually locked out all together. Those who believe we are not threatened from foreign and internal enemies are deluding themselves.
 
OK guys - got my answer - this happens more frequently these days, and probably due to heightened security concerns. I don't want this thread to head off into a death spiral on civil liberties and the direction of the world, so thanks for the replies!

Paul
 
Odd ATC Request....

OK guys - got my answer - this happens more frequently these days, and probably due to heightened security concerns. I don't want this thread to head off into a death spiral on civil liberties and the direction of the world, so thanks for the replies!

Paul

The observation and question is not at all unreasonable and perhaps the answer is of value to anyone flying IFR these days. An ATC response to a flight plan change can be expected and it must be acknowledged the controller is doing his job.

The thread does not have to disintegrate in a different direction. Certainly that was not the intent. It was merely a perspective from a different point of view and admittedly a fearful one.
 
ATC Request

If it were me, and I wanted to know, I would have asked for a phone number and called them to get the straight scoop, without all the drama. Pretty sure they are just like us, no?
 
from my ATC buddy Alex DeDominicis

(From Alex DeDominics - ATC controller in N. Texas)

"About three years ago I was working a business jet. The pilot said, “change in plans - we have decided to go to Little Rock.” I replied, as I’m supposed to, “reason for change in destination?” His remark was ”none of your business!!”. I have to say that the frequency got very quiet, it was so quiet that you could hear a pin drop. After about 3 to 5 seconds, which seemed like 30 minutes, a third party said “wrong answer, hope you enjoy your escort d**b@ss.”

It was just after that the business jet came on the frequency apologizing for the answer the second in command pilot had given. He explained why they were changing destinations and explained that the young, eager pilot in the cockpit didn’t know why I was asking, and again he is very, very sorry for that. My boss at this time was on the phone making the proper arrangements (F-16s), but after talking to dispatch to verify that it was legit, the issue was dropped.

Normally nobody ever gives me a hard time, but every now and then you have someone that wants to push the issue. Remember, we don’t do this because we feel like it, we are required to do this because it is in our job description."
​
 
I replied, as I?m supposed to, ?reason for change in destination?? His remark was ?none of your business!!?.
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Serious question: Did he violate any law?
 
I've had this happen to me a couple times recently as well, under VFR flight following. I fly quite often from a private strip (unmarked on charts) in west Texas to a private strip in Oklahoma (marked on charts), and usually on the return trip I'll ask for flight following to the nearest airport (Big Spring in this case), because they don't know the location of my home strip and that would be the best they could follow me too. Each time I've done that I've gotten the question when I changed destination, so now I just tell them I want flight following to my private strip 28 miles due south of Big Spring, and that's no problem at all. It seems they have less trouble logging a destination that is not registered on the charts than they do with changing a destination. I haven't had that problem on the way up north because I usually file to KOJA and fuel up (cheap fuel!), then go the 8 miles north to the ranch on CTAF.

I did have one controller press me a couple times for an identifier for my home strip, until I explained to him very clearly that it was quite literally a dirt road in a cotton field and no identifier existed. I could hear the amusement in his voice, but I think he finally understood and quit asking.

DanH said:
Serious question: Did he violate any law?
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Unfortunately, that's no longer required before being on the receiving end of an intercept or investigation.
 
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David-aviator said:
OK guys - got my answer - this happens more frequently these days, and probably due to heightened security concerns. I don't want this thread to head off into a death spiral on civil liberties and the direction of the world, so thanks for the replies!

Paul

The observation and question is not at all unreasonable and perhaps the answer is of value to anyone flying IFR these days. An ATC response to a flight plan change can be expected and it must be acknowledged the controller is doing his job.

The thread does not have to disintegrate in a different direction. Certainly that was not the intent. It was merely a perspective from a different point of view and admittedly a fearful one.
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Ok, I am completely confused. I opened this thread in hopes to learn something new about ATC. Starting with the above post, I cannot tell what the topic was. Was there some prior post I am missing before the above? That was the first post I saw anyway. I am not interested in thread drift but I would like to know what the original discussion was about.
 
RVbySDI said:
Ok, I am completely confused. I opened this thread in hopes to learn something new about ATC. Starting with the above post, I cannot tell what the topic was. Was there some prior post I am missing before the above? That was the first post I saw anyway. I am not interested in thread drift but I would like to know what the original discussion was about.
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Steve - no mystery - I asked this question last night, got a few answers, then closed the thread because of the potential for off-topic political discussions. Here's the thread with the question:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=77046

....and the last thing I want anyone doing is to insult the guys in ATC - they are following procedures dictated by others - whether they like to ask or not is not their decision.

There are all sots of questions I could ask about what I learned from this, but they are political, not aeronautical in nature, which is why I closed the previous thread.

Paul
 
Ok, thanks guys for the link. Now I understand the topic. I appreciate the information and did find it very beneficial to read the closed post.
 
OK, in the interest of keeping the subject aeronautical in nature (and setting aside my libertarian ire) I have the following serious questions. Please consider all of these questions in the context of flying an RV, not a biz jet or scheduled carrier.

Is there a formal rule or regulation that requires pilots to provide a reason to ATC for an enroute change of destination? If so, please provide citation(s).

If you cancel flight following prior to reaching your stated destination, and then decide to change destinations, what happens?

It was stated that you no longer have to be in violation of the law to be investigated (hopefully I’m not the only person troubled by this). So if you felt disinclined to disclose your personal reasons to ATC for changing your destination, and this decision is not in violation of any rule, regulation or law, what could be the outcome and consequences of such an investigation?
 
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Ironflight said:
....and the last thing I want anyone doing is to insult the guys in ATC - they are following procedures dictated by others - whether they like to ask or not is not their decision.
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Absolutely correct.

When a airliner suddenly leaves a scheduled route it makes sense to ask why. Every US controller would sound the alert.....with or without a mandate from management.

I suspect the majority think grilling the rest of us about a destination change is silly.

Ok, back to the question; did that young first officer violate any law by refusing to offer a reason for a destination change?

It's important, because there is no right answer. For sure the pilot response will never be "Infidel scum, I am a terrorist!"

POSTSCRIPT: Just saw Whisky Mike's post previous to this one. Well put Mike...I second every question.
 
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I personally HATE asking for the reason of destination change. Been a controller for 20 years and this is a fairly new procedure. It only applies to IFR operations. If you cancel IFR prior to making a change, the controller should not ask. It does not apply to VFR flight following.
 
Quote: His remark was ?none of your business!!?.
I replied, as I?m supposed to, ?reason for change in destination?? His remark was ?none of your business!!?.
DanH said:
Serious question: Did he violate any law?
Click to expand...
So, is because She said so a better answer ;)
 
We appreciate you guys

David Brent said:
I personally HATE asking for the reason of destination change. Been a controller for 20 years and this is a fairly new procedure. It only applies to IFR operations. If you cancel IFR prior to making a change, the controller should not ask. It does not apply to VFR flight following.
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David, we really appreciate all you ATC guys for the inputs and no, we don't hold it against you:). Times are-a-changin' it seems and we all have to adapt...thanks.

Best,
 
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