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RV and flat spins

Camillo

Well Known Member
Hi. I searched but found no specific thread on flat spins on RVs.
I am at in the middle of my aerobatic rating and was wondering if I need to be formed on recovering from flat spins.
My instructor shortly told me that if I will enter in a flat spin I will be dead and added that he will show one to me but it is not part of the training.
I was wondering if the event of entering in an unintentional flat spin could be possible in a RV.
Thanks.
Camillo
 
Hi. I searched but found no specific thread on flat spins on RVs.
I am at in the middle of my aerobatic rating and was wondering if I need to be formed on recovering from flat spins.
My instructor shortly told me that if I will enter in a flat spin I will be dead and added that he will show one to me but it is not part of the training.
I was wondering if the event of entering in an unintentional flat spin could be possible in a RV.
Thanks.
Camillo

YES you can flat spin and RV ... at least a RV6A ... DON'T DO IT! I took me little over 5000 feet to recover.
 
Ok. But should you want to volontary enter in a flat spin or may it be possibile to enter unintentionally?
 
In a -9? I doubt you could ever do it unintentionally. You need specific airspeed, specific power, specific rudder and specific stick inputs. In a -9 you'd never really be in those situations since you shouldn't be doing aerobatics.
 
Perhaps one of our resident acro guys could write a few words about how a flat spin is entered, so everyone knows what to avoid.
 
YES you can flat spin and RV ... at least a RV6A ... DON'T DO IT! I took me little over 5000 feet to recover.

They do take some room to recover, but it will be dependent upon W&B among other things. A 160hp wood prop equipped aircraft will likely need more time to recover than one with a 180/200 and a Hartzell BA prop, for example.

I found that in my -6A, flat spins must be encouraged with opposite aileron and adding power (much like I learned to do them in a Citabria). The -6As rotation rate is rather exhilarating if you're used to spinning something like a 150 or a cub I guess, and going flat makes it seem even more so.

Getting out of them was really just centering the stick and pulling power to idle and once that was done, the nose dropped back on it's own. It was normal spin recovery at that point. I need about 1500 feet for a recovery from a fully developed spin; if the spin was less than two turns or so, recovery altitude needed is about half.

If you have the training to do it, have been through a (non-flat) spin series, have a chute, etc. I see no reason to not give it a go. Start high - way high - and build up carefully. I started my spin tests at 10k AGL.
 
Perhaps one of our resident acro guys could write a few words about how a flat spin is entered, so everyone knows what to avoid.

Normal spin, then opposite aileron + power.

I don't do them as a normal event in the RV since it's not terribly kind to the crankshaft, prop flange, etc.
 
YES you can flat spin and RV ... at least a RV6A ... DON'T DO IT! I took me little over 5000 feet to recover.

Then you did something wrong for the first 4,000' or so. It wasn't the airplane. But I'm glad you figured things out.

Flat spins are very misunderstood. There is no such thing as a 'flat' or non 'flat' spin - only varying degrees of flatness, ending with the nose level with the horizon. The video referenced above is only very mildly flattened due to the very low power setting. Most aerobatic airplanes will not flatten out simply by letting a normal power off spin develop. They require flattening inputs, and will only signifcantly flatten in one direction. With Lycomings and upright spins, that's with left rudder. Right rudder inverted.

The airplanes you want to avoid developed spins in are the ones that will flatten out on their own and become unrecoverable. Unfortunately, nobody knows what all these types are, since few GA aircraft are fully spin tested. Don't do spins in unapproved aircraft or those for which spin characteristics are unknown. I would suggest against spinning anything with full wing tip tanks. ;) Google 'Tipsy Nipper flat spin' for an interesting video and story. The issue with very flat spins is that there is very little airflow moving across the rudder to oppose the yaw.

Back to RVs - You may be entering test pilot territory by deliberately applying inputs to produce as flat a spin as possible. After establishing a normal left rudder power off spin, this would involve full aft stick, full right aileron and full power. I don't know of any RV pilot who has done flat spin testing at the edge of the envelope, and has sufficient spin expertise to provide good information on them. But maybe there are some of you, who maybe just haven't spoken up here in the past on this subject. I'd be interested in the information since I no longer have an RV to play with. Nearly all aerobatic airplanes will recover from flat spins. You will not necessarily die. But in aerobatic airplanes, flat spins are a gyroscopic maneuver, done intentionally.

Unless you have had advanced spin training specific to the aircraft you are flying, your best bet for recovering any type of spin (assuming you maintain situational awareness) is PARE. If you have lost situational awareness, your best bet is to pull power off and neutralize (move to center) all three flight controls, and wait for recovery.

That being said, the most efficient ACTIVE flat spin recovery method for most aerobatic airplanes is full power, opposite rudder, stick forward to some degree, and in-spin aileron. Yes, I know we all learned that you should always pull power off for spin recovery. Don't misunderstand - I'm talking about ACTIVE recovery via refined practice. This is very different from the concept of emergency spin recovery technique, which absolutely should involve pulling power as the first step. In-spin means aileron in the direction of the roll component of the spin, not necessarily the yaw direction (inverted spins). But by all means, if you have tried PARE, or pulled power off, centered all the controls, and are not recovering any type of spin after 5+ seconds have passed, you need to try something else. The Tipsy Nipper pilot that I mention above did just that, and it saved his life. But this aircraft had unusual spin characteristics, atypical of most aerobatic aircraft.

Keep in mind that with metal props, high power flat spins apply a LOT of gyroscopic stress to the crank flange. I would NOT recommend anyone here go play with these unless you have a high level of expertise and experience with advanced aerobatic spins and are willing to play test pilot. If this describes you, then nothing I'm writing here needs reading. There just isn't an existing knowledge base with the entire spin matrix in RVs as there is for more serious acro ships (Pitts, Extra). Until that knowledge base exists, I'd tread cautiously. By 'knowledge base', I mean the full matrix of spin testing across all aerobatic RV models, across the entire acro W&B range.

I never tried serious flat spins when I had an RV, but I strongly suspect that any aerobatic RV model, properly loaded, will recover from a fully flattened spin (full power, outspin aileron) by pulling power off and neutralizing the controls. It should recover a little more quickly with normal PARE. Folks have been known to produce accidental inverted flat spins by kicking too early on hammerheads and being way too aggressive with forward stick (full forward stick). Folks have also gotten into accidental inverted flats doing shoulder rolls. There was a fatal Skybolt crash this year associated with that. Accidental upright flat spins are uncommon. I can't think of a likely scenario for encountering an upright flat spin while doing RV acro.

Be aware that many airplanes strongly react to even simple aileron inputs, forgetting full power. The Clipwing J-3 Cub I used to fly had extremely straightforward spin characteristics - just like a standard longwing Cub. Fully-developed, recovery was within 1/4 turn. But if you applied full right (outspin) aileron during the left rudder power off spin, it would flatten slightly. The rudder then felt eerily disconnected with almost no pressure. After applying opposite rudder, in-spin (left) aileron, and forward stick, it took nearly a full turn to recover. Big difference in character compared to a neutral aileron spin. It's been a long time since I've done spins in RVs and I don't remember the specifics on how aileron-affected the spins were, other than simply accelerating the rotation a bit.

Bottom line in any aerobatic airplane, if you pull power and neutralize the controls the moment the airplane breaks loose or otherwise starts doing something unexpected, you will almost immediately recover. Admit you have lost control and don't fight the airplane. Get good aerobatic/spin training.
 
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The 'bouncing ball' AOA/stall audio alert in the video seems very intuitive. Does anyone know what box is generating that?

-jon

That's the Dynon D10A making that AoA noise. Way more useful than a display (which it also has).
 
Sandifer - Thankyou for your insights, appreciated.
I have aerobatic training (in a Chipmonk) and a logbook entry to prove it but this was many years ago and I am not willing to commit aerobatics in my RV-6 until I am confident with spins in general and that the '6 can recover from upright and inverted spins within my capability.
Can you comment about inverted spins in RVs - anything of note from your experience?
 
Can you comment about inverted spins in RVs - anything of note from your experience?

My inverted spin experience is limited to the Pitts, but I've seen a few RV-4's do them, including WillyEyeBall (Bill) here. Seems to behave pretty normally, though Bill could provide more info. Most aerobatic airplanes have normal spin characteristics either upright or inverted - not much difference in the mechanics.
 
My inverted spin experience is limited to the Pitts, but I've seen a few RV-4's do them, including WillyEyeBall (Bill) here. Seems to behave pretty normally, though Bill could provide more info. Most aerobatic airplanes have normal spin characteristics either upright or inverted - not much difference in the mechanics.

The side-by-sides are slightly different than the tandems. As Van and others have noted, after the first 1.5-2 rotations, the rotation rate increases noticeably and might be unnerving if you're not looking for it. They don't recommend spins in the side by sides.

The second thing about the side-by-sides is that recovery takes longer than it would in a normal acro aircraft. Figure 1.5-2 rotations after apply corrective inputs. PARE works, but the elevator needs to be forced to neutral - it wants to float up if left to it's own devices.
 
Then you did something wrong for the first 4,000' or so. It wasn't the airplane. But I'm glad you figured things out. .[/B]

I sure did do something wrong! I wasn't trying to spin the airplane or do aerobatics, I was completely caught off guard when it went into the spin. Good thing I was at 8000'
 
The side-by-sides are slightly different than the tandems. As Van and others have noted, after the first 1.5-2 rotations, the rotation rate increases noticeably and might be unnerving if you're not looking for it. They don't recommend spins in the side by sides.

The second thing about the side-by-sides is that recovery takes longer than it would in a normal acro aircraft. Figure 1.5-2 rotations after apply corrective inputs. PARE works, but the elevator needs to be forced to neutral - it wants to float up if left to it's own devices.

It sounds like you are referring to what is commonly known about the RV-6/6A with respect to upright spins. Are you really talking about inverted spins? I've never known Vans to comment on inverted spin characteristics. I've never spun a 6 with the standard small vertical fin, but what you describe is consistent with what I've heard, and what Vans states about the 6.

But I have done the Phase I aerobatic/spin testing on a 6A with the larger RV-7 vertical fin (RV-7A for all practical purposes), and this totally changes the spin characteristics compared to what you describe. Even after 3 turns in either direction (fully developed), it stopped in about 1/4 turn, which is traditional spin behavior in aerobatic aircraft - same as my old RV-3.

I sure did do something wrong! I wasn't trying to spin the airplane or do aerobatics, I was completely caught off guard when it went into the spin. Good thing I was at 8000'

As a teachable moment, can you precisely describe how you found yourself in what you believe to be a flat spin without attempting acro? RVs don't easily enter and sustain spins without full rudder and elevator deflection held and maintained.
 
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It sounds like you are referring to what is commonly known about the RV-6/6A with respect to upright spins. Are you really talking about inverted spins? I've never known Vans to comment on inverted spin characteristics. I've never spun a 6 with the standard small vertical fin, but what you describe is consistent with what I've heard, and what Vans states about the 6.

But I have done the Phase I aerobatic/spin testing on a 6A with the larger RV-7 vertical fin (RV-7A for all practical purposes), and this totally changes the spin characteristics compared to what you describe. Even after 3 turns in either direction (fully developed), it stopped in about 1/4 turn, which is traditional spin behavior in aerobatic aircraft.

Mine has the in-between fin & rudder - same as on an RV-8 - and my recovery definitely was longer than 1/4 turn after only slightly more than two rotations. I've only done them (intentionally) on one flight; no inverted system meant lots of cleanup afterwards :-(
 
Mine has the in-between fin & rudder - same as on an RV-8 - and my recovery definitely was longer than 1/4 turn after only slightly more than two rotations. I've only done them (intentionally) on one flight; no inverted system meant lots of cleanup afterwards :-(

I'm confused...you did an intentional inverted spin with no inverted oil system? Without inverted oil, I'd prefer to just shut the engine off and restart after the spin is done...done over a runway of course. Of course, if you have a carb, it quit anyway.
 
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I'm confused...you did an intentional inverted spin with no inverted oil system? Without inverted oil, I'd prefer to just shut the engine off and restart after the spin is done...done over a runway of course. Of course, if you have a carb, it quit anyway.

Pretty much. It was on the test card, and I knew from others that there'd still be 10-15 seconds of oil pressure at idle. It's FI, so no issue there but I dumped ~2 qts.
 
Pretty much. It was on the test card, and I knew from others that there'd still be 10-15 seconds of oil pressure at idle. It's FI, so no issue there but I dumped ~2 qts.

Interesting. Just wanted to clarify since few would be willing to do that. :)
 
As a teachable moment, can you precisely describe how you found yourself in what you believe to be a flat spin without attempting acro? RVs don't easily enter and sustain spins without full rudder and elevator deflection held and maintained.

I'm at work this morning, but here it is...

During Phase 1 testing, we were testing power on stalls with 200lbs in the pilot and 200lbs passenger seat, full fuel and 100lbs of baggage. I was setting up for a test with a 30 deg bank left turn, I was somewhere between 90% and 100% throttle, in a climbing turn at 30 degs at about 65knots, over 8000?. This was going to be the first left turn stall, I had just completed three right turn stalls. All the right turn stalls where uneventful.
My head was down writing down the test data, alt, time, temp, pressure alt, speed, bank angle, fuel level readings, etc. When I was whipped around like I hit something ... I clearly remember seeing the rotation and thinking "this isn't right" ... then the nose came up and I could no longer see the horizon. At this point I really knew it wasn?t right ? I don?t recall how many turns happened before I started to do something ? I tried the normal inputs ? Nothing happened ? speed of the rotation was increasing ? I tried other inputs without anything responding. I only thing that came to mind was reading somewhere about pumping the stick to break a spin. THAT WORKED!
The nose fell straight down and the spin stopped ? I pulled power and pulled back on the stick. Looked at the EFIS and saw I was at 3000 feet.
1. Looking back I tell everyone ? when you don?t expect something to happen and it does, it takes a few seconds for your mind to register, then a few more seconds for you to do something. I?m sure I froze and held the inputs that made the matter much worst and keeping power on sure didn?t help.
2. I was wearing a parachute during the test ? but during this whole event never ever thought about bailing out, to this day I think I should have had a minimum alt written and posted on the panel. IF IT GOES BAD GET OUT AT xxxx.
3. Good thing we had all the ballast tied down good, if it broke free who knows what would have happened.

This was one of those life lessons that really gave me a different prospective on accidents.
 
I'm at work this morning, but here it is...

During Phase 1 testing, we were testing power on stalls with 200lbs in the pilot and 200lbs passenger seat, full fuel and 100lbs of baggage. I was setting up for a test with a 30 deg bank left turn, I was somewhere between 90% and 100% throttle, in a climbing turn at 30 degs at about 65knots, over 8000?. This was going to be the first left turn stall, I had just completed three right turn stalls. All the right turn stalls where uneventful.
My head was down writing down the test data, alt, time, temp, pressure alt, speed, bank angle, fuel level readings, etc. When I was whipped around like I hit something ... I clearly remember seeing the rotation and thinking "this isn't right" ... then the nose came up and I could no longer see the horizon. At this point I really knew it wasn?t right ? I don?t recall how many turns happened before I started to do something ? I tried the normal inputs ? Nothing happened ? speed of the rotation was increasing ? I tried other inputs without anything responding. I only thing that came to mind was reading somewhere about pumping the stick to break a spin. THAT WORKED!
The nose fell straight down and the spin stopped ? I pulled power and pulled back on the stick. Looked at the EFIS and saw I was at 3000 feet.
1. Looking back I tell everyone ? when you don?t expect something to happen and it does, it takes a few seconds for your mind to register, then a few more seconds for you to do something. I?m sure I froze and held the inputs that made the matter much worst and keeping power on sure didn?t help.
2. I was wearing a parachute during the test ? but during this whole event never ever thought about bailing out, to this day I think I should have had a minimum alt written and posted on the panel. IF IT GOES BAD GET OUT AT xxxx.
3. Good thing we had all the ballast tied down good, if it broke free who knows what would have happened.

This was one of those life lessons that really gave me a different prospective on accidents.

Reading this, I'm still unclear exactly how the inadvertent spin was entered. I assume it spun left? Were you inadvertently holding a lot of rudder or elevator while you had your head down? If you were in a climbing turn, not paying attention, with the controls fairly neutral, you should have just flown a parabolic arc as you ran out of airspeed on the way up. Not trying flame you or anything, just trying to gain some clarity for the purposes of education and safety.

What was your previous spin experience and training? Did the spin truly remain in a flat, level attitude until it recovered? Can you describe in detail the inputs you were applying that did not work, and how long you held them before bailing and trying something else? I've read a lot about spins of all types, and recovery techniques, but the stick pumping thing is a new one for me. If it works it works, but I suspect you may have been doing something else that contributed to the recovery despite the stick pumping. Just curious what you can remember with clarity, and if your previous spin experience or training was sufficient to give you some perspective about the mechanics of how you got there, the true nature of the spin itself, and what led to the recovery.

So do you understand exactly what happened and how you recovered, or in the future will you simply make an effort to avoid at all costs stalling the airplane in a similar configuration? Again, not trying to blame or flame, but yours is an unusual story that could be beneficial to others.
 
Reading this, I'm still unclear exactly how the inadvertent spin was entered. I assume it spun left? Were you inadvertently holding a lot of rudder or elevator while you had your head down? If you were in a climbing turn, not paying attention, with the controls fairly neutral, you should have just flown a parabolic arc as you ran out of airspeed on the way up. Not trying flame you or anything, just trying to gain some clarity for the purposes of education and safety.

What was your previous spin experience and training? Did the spin truly remain in a flat, level attitude until it recovered? Can you describe in detail the inputs you were applying that did not work, and how long you held them before bailing and trying something else? I've read a lot about spins of all types, and recovery techniques, but the stick pumping thing is a new one for me. If it works it works, but I suspect you may have been doing something else that contributed to the recovery despite the stick pumping. Just curious what you can remember with clarity, and if your previous spin experience or training was sufficient to give you some perspective about the mechanics of how you got there, the true nature of the spin itself, and what led to the recovery.

So do you understand exactly what happened and how you recovered, or in the future will you simply make an effort to avoid at all costs stalling the airplane in a similar configuration? Again, not trying to blame or flame, but yours is an unusual story that could be beneficial to others.

I don't take your questions as blame or flame ... I don't understand how it entered the left spin and to this day not sure completely what I did during the spin. I do know that after pumping the stick the nose fell like all the spins I've been in before. I have since spin the RV6A 3 or 4 times at aerobatic weight of 1375 and never saw the nose rise, like it did that time. My guess and only a guess is the weigh and balance was such that it caused the flatness. I am 100% sure that until the end, the nose was above the horizon. My previous spin experience was in 152, 172, and 182.
 
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Flat Spin

I think the factors were:
Less than optimum vertical tail, ie, larger than original RV6 but smaller than RV6 "big tail"
Relatively aft CG
Entry at high power setting
Failure to immediately reduce power to idle.
Almost all of the popular high performance aerobatic airplanes will recover from flat spin with full power, however on aircraft such as the RV6 this is an unknown.
Side by side aircraft, especially those with a relatively large canopy/cabin structure, have a history of less than stellar spin recovery. In contrast, tandem aircraft with huge bubble canopies such as the Sukhoi SU29 and two place Extras, don't seem to be affected by the large canopy.
 
During the testing of my Rocket I did a series of tests to see where the stall speed was with a 60* bank. I would put in a right bank and then pull to keep the nose somewhere near level, effectively doing a 2g turn. Then I would slowly pulled the power back till I got the stall. The turn would tighten significantly as the speed decayed. The stall occurred without much (any?) warning. On the first couple of them the airplane immediately rolled (snapped?) opposite the bank input effectively bringing me back to level. However the third one went the other way putting me inverted. A slight pull on the stick and full aileron in the direction of the roll brought me back around. I suspect on the first two I was slightly uncoordinated to the left, and the third was slightly uncoordinated to the right. As I enjoy a few aerobatics regularly the sight picture was not unusual, and the recovery inputs were automatic.

I am reiterating this experience as I see a similarity to what happened to Christopher. While in this case the bank was only ~30*, power was significant. I wonder if the airplane flipped inverted, followed with incorrect inputs (forward stick?) which maintained the stalled condition, and not being perfectly coordinated the inverted spin would begin. Not saying it was exactly like this, but can see it happening to me if aerobatics were not part of my regular flying regimen.
 
I am reiterating this experience as I see a similarity to what happened to Christopher. While in this case the bank was only ~30*, power was significant. I wonder if the airplane flipped inverted, followed with incorrect inputs (forward stick?) which maintained the stalled condition, and not being perfectly coordinated the inverted spin would begin. Not saying it was exactly like this, but can see it happening to me if aerobatics were not part of my regular flying regimen.

Christopher was describing an upright spin rather than inverted. I hope folks who may not have had spin training don't read this thread thinking that fear of spins is necessary when doing simple stalls, power on/off, banked, accelerated, etc. Generally speaking, you will not spin unless you have the rudder AND elevator near full deflection. Anything less will typically be a spiral, which is can be flown right out of.

Even if, when doing any kind of stall, you get a sharp wing drop, roll, etc., this does necessarily mean you are entering a spin. It just means there's some lift differential at the moment the stall occurs which translates to roll. Try to stay coordinated, but many pilots are taught (and continue to think) that the slightest bit of uncoordination during a stall will result in a spin. Not true. It takes a lot of yaw force present - yaw force that neutral rudder will typically prevent. You're more likely to spin during stall practice if you really hamfist or use all three controls improperly AFTER the stall break occurs. If you just pull power and neutralize all three controls as soon as the stall breaks, the worst you will be left with is the need to roll to level flight with ailerons from an unusual attitude. Unless you've had spin training, fighting the stall with extreme control inputs is more likely to get you into trouble.

I went up in the Pitts once trying to create a situation where I could produce a spin with NO rudder deflection. I was successful, but it was only possible in one specific configuration, and it was slow to develop. During a power on stall entry, I kept the rudder neutral, and held full aft stick and applied full right aileron as the stall broke. The nose dropped, the airplane wallowed around for a few seconds, and then slowly adopted a stabilized, flattish spin to the left. Power was still on. I confirmed this was truly a spin and not a spiral by pushing the stick forward to neutral. The spin rotation continued. Recovery was normal with anti-spin inputs. I could not produce a power off spin with no rudder deflection no matter what I did. I would expect it would be similarly challenging to produce a spin in an RV with no rudder. Fun things to experiment with.

All that being said, good spin training has a whole lot of value.
 
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Spins

There is considerable evidence that many of the pre WWII airplanes would spin with aileron only. By the time production resumed after WWII this had been mostly corrected.
The Sukhoi has a relatively benign one G stall. However as the G load is increased to induce a high speed stall, the event becomes more and more violent. I saw one relatively experienced pilot stall the airplane out of a steep bank turn, he was pulling a lot of G, and the airplane snapped about a turn and a quarter, back to relatively level flight. He had no idea what had happened. This occurred with very slight rudder input.
One of the things I demonstrated in the Sukhoi was to stall the airplane in a climb with a moderate power setting, aggressively apply full power, and raise the nose 5 degrees. The airplane would power out of the stall. A lot of aileron and rudder could be used without any hint of a secondary stall or spin.
Yurgis Kairys, in the SU26, would do half of an octagon loop on takeoff, started right from liftoff, the entire maneuver being done just above a stall.
 
Thanks for all your answers. Sandifer, what you wrote is really useful and is what I was searching for.
I am not far from completion of my -4 and was wondering if she could enter in an unintentional flat spin.
I am at the middle of my acro training (5 hours done) and my instructor told me he will only show to me one flat spin. He also added that if I enter in a flat spin alone, I will be dead.
Now I understand it may be different, but at an adequate height.
 
He also added that if I enter in a flat spin alone, I will be dead.

I'm only watching from the sidelines, but this statement, which you've noted twice now, from an instructor teaching upset training bothers me a bit. We all know flat spin recovery is doable, albeit a very advanced maneuver. But to put the fear of dying into you while youre trying to overcome that with training, seems counterproductive, to say the least. If the guy said "hey I'm not comfortable teaching flat spins, its too risky" yeah I get that, but to put it this way, I dunno, I'd probably be inclined to find another instructor.
 
Flat spins

Camilo. Let,s clarify one thing...in order to "flat" spin you have to have outspin aileron input (stick position @ 5 oclock if you are spinning left or 7 o,clock in you spinning right) and power to push your tail down making the aircraft attitude "Flat" .

When you are on a flat spin, You will notice your rotation will slow down. Without power you have just a spin.

I noticed people use the word "flat spin" easely. I will reccomend all pilots to enroll in one spin training course offered by many in the industry. I live in the East Coast and Bill Finnagin and Johhny White are the two I would reccomend. Money well spent and you "will" undestand "all" spins by the end of the course and how to recoup from each normaly and emergency. Breakfast intake not reccomended that day as you will spin about 7 times for each different spin + your emergency recovery procedure!

Here is a video of that training...enjoy http://youtu.be/WKDUr3aPv3U
 
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Thanks for the Youtube link;
I'm on the final leg of my Phase 1 40 hours. Soon I'll be heading outside of the practice area to the West Coast Spin Doctor for some spin & unusual attitude training, then aerobatics.
The video answered some questions I didn't know to ask.
I'm sure I'll get more out of the training, going in with an idea what I'll be expecting to learn.
 
I just noticed (5 years later) that the very first spin is labeled incorrectly..It is described as a Upright Flat Spin...it should be just "Upright Spin"
 
Flat spins

Hope this isn't redundant. I learned flat spins have varying degrees of flattening. In the Pitts the first stage is to enter a normal power off upright spin. Then add full out spin aileron (opposite to rudder and rotation) which raises the nose and slows rotation. Next add full throttle (maintaining full rudder and full back stick) which brings the nose higher and increases rotation rate. In the Pitts this is always left rudder and left rotation. The final step is to apply full down elevator (forward stick, the front right corner). The nose comes higher and rotation rate increases, to about 400 degrees a second in the Pitts. Recovery is easy - just backing out the inputs, although the Pitts recovers beautifully leaving full throttle in. Incidentally, inverted flat spins recover just as easily or even more so than upright. (? Less blanking of rudder)
 
In the Pitts this is always left rudder and left rotation. The final step is to apply full down elevator (forward stick, the front right corner). The nose comes higher and rotation rate increases, to about 400 degrees a second in the Pitts.

400 in a flat spin Bill? Are you really sure about this or did you have jet thrusters mounted in the tail? :D I've done the same full forward, full power flat spin in my S-1S and the rotation rate is pretty good, but I'd estimate no more than 150 degrees/sec. In my experience the only way to get a Pitts to rotate 400 deg/sec about any axis is to hit a clean snap in an S-1. The S-2's don't rotate quite as fast.
 
Pitts Spin

Years ago at an airshow I timed Bob Herendeen on two consecutive flights. One was with the camera mounted above the vertical fin, the other was without the camera. 33 turns inverted flat was just under 60 seconds, the spin with the camera was a second or so slower.
My experience with The Pitts S1S is that the upright flat is very flat with the stick all the way back. I had numerous qualified observers tell me that the nose appeared to be 20 degrees above the horizon.
So the 400 degrees per second myth, which has been around for over 30 years, cannot be supported by fact.
The fastest spin rotation in the Pitts and most popular high performance aerobatic airplanes, is done by moving the stick fully in the opposite direction after the spin is established. This results in a rotation rate far in excess of any flat spin I ever saw. This is further supported by watching Yurgis Kairys perform an accelerated upright spin in the SU26, transitioning into a snap roll, usually 17 turns, very vertical. I watched this numerous times and could not keep up with it by counting. With smoke it was possible to complete the count after the spin was stopped.
 
Then add full out spin aileron (opposite to rudder and rotation) which raises the nose and slows rotation. Next add full throttle (maintaining full rudder and full back stick) which brings the nose higher and increases rotation rate.

Watch my video again starting at 2:11 and you tell me what the Out Spin aileron Input does...(in this case stick at 5 o clock position) it is when you add power that the down wash from your prop pushing the tail down making it flat.

Flat spins kills people because they are misunderstood as slowing down and the false sensation on you are doing something right while chasing a solution to get out of it....I have spun my Pitts and my Giles every single time I have gone flying. it is just part of what we do with it...

Spin horror Stories are like Pitts horror Stories...they are not valid unless you have flown them

My suggestion: Take the course...your confidence level will go up so high then after...
 
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Flat spins

400 in a flat spin Bill? Are you really sure about this or did you have jet thrusters mounted in the tail? :D I've done the same full forward, full power flat spin in my S-1S and the rotation rate is pretty good, but I'd estimate no more than 150 degrees/sec. In my experience the only way to get a Pitts to rotate 400 deg/sec about any axis is to hit a clean snap in an S-1. The S-2's don't rotate quite as fast.

Eric: Thanks for pointing out my error on rotation rate. I think there was an intracranial short circuit or preignition on my part. Trying to think back to the sight picture I believe the S-2A actually rotates about 140-180 degrees per second. The long flat spin described before seems to be about 198 degrees per second in the S-1. The S-2A does everything slower. Still in CO after skiing but will try to find an old flat spin video. We may be able to determine rotation rate from that. I tend to think of rotation around the longitutudinal axis (roll), but it is almost pure yaw in the fully developed flat spin. My apologies to all on the forum for an inaccurate post.
 
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