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"Everything you need for ADS-B"----Questions about Freeflight unit

Mike S

Mike S

Senior Curmudgeon
All in a little blue box.

Home_ADSB_Advantage.jpg


"Prices starting at $3,300" Always scares me when they lead off with "Starting at"-----and if it is "everything you need", why would the price "start at"----am I expected to buy extra stuff that I do not need???

Sounds good-----real good-----maybe too good in fact.

Anybody have any hands on experience with the Freeflight ADS-B systems???

http://freeflightsystems.com/images/rangr_adsb.pdf

Real cost, compatibility with our EFIS systems and mode C xpndrs etc.

Thanks in advance.
 
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FDL-978-TX Transmitter ADS-B Out only: $3305, with built in certified GPS: $5135

FDL-978 XVR Transceiver ADS-B In/Out: $3665, with built in certified GPS: $5495

There are lots of little details but that's the basic lineup for 978 units.
 
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Walt said:
FDL-978-TX Transmitter ADS-B Out only: $3305, with built in GPS: $5135

FDL-978 XVR Transceiver ADS-B In/Out: $3665, with built in GPS: $5495
Click to expand...

Walt, thanks for the info-----------have you ever actually installed or used any of these??

How well do they integrate into an existing aircraft???

What/which one do I need to become compliant with 2020 requirements??

I am still baffled by their advertising claim of "Everything you need in one box", and then having more that a single box????? Logic would dictate that 3 of the boxes do not have "Everything" I need.

:confused::confused::confused:
 
For the price of those two units, you might as well upgrade to a SkyView with their mode S transponder.

Based on Low Pass's thread the other day regarding how safe flying has become, tell me again why the FAA is mandating mode S!
 
1. There is no rule requiring ADSB in. But it gets you free wx.
2. The FARs say you need a TSO gps position source, and a TSO transmitter, either on 978 or a mode S-ES.

So if you have a G430 which, with a software upgrade, can be the TSO position source, then the UAT transmitter is all that's required.

If you do not have a TSO position source, then they will sell you theirs, for more money.

If you want the uploaded wx and traffic, then you need the tranceiver to get ADSB in.

NavWorxs has a similar system for less, but I know nothing about it.

If you have a 430W or similar, you can also use a Trig, Garmin, or new King (made by Trig) S-ES transponder for ADSB out. In an EAB you can install any ADSB in without worrying about TSOs, none needed.

So I think you need a TSO gps to make the Skyview compliant, in addition to its TSO mode S-ES.
 
With the Skyview their GPS isn't TSO'd but you can use it with their transponder until 2020 when you will need a TSO'd GPS unit for compliance. I already had a G430W so it was just a matter of upgrading the software on the G430W and connecting them together.
:cool:
 
GalinHdz said:
With the Skyview their GPS isn't TSO'd but you can use it with their transponder until 2020 when you will need a TSO'd GPS unit for compliance. I already had a G430W so it was just a matter of upgrading the software on the G430W and connecting them together.
:cool:
Click to expand...

True, but Dynon has some time and they are known for innovation. It wouldn't surprise me if they come out with a TSO'ed unit by then.

(I don't know if they are working on such an item, I'm just dreaming.)
 
N941WR said:
For the price of those two units, you might as well upgrade to a SkyView with their mode S transponder.

Based on Low Pass's thread the other day regarding how safe flying has become, tell me again why the FAA is mandating mode S!
Click to expand...

Of course they are mandating one of two types of ADSB, one is mode S-ES; the other the UAT on 978 MHz.

It has nothing to do with safety. It's all about saving the FAA money. They get to decommision their expensive to maintain radars, and replace them with cheap receivers listening to ADSB out signals. And who gets to pay for this? Oh yea, the aircraft owners!
 
Mike S said:
Walt, thanks for the info-----------have you ever actually installed or used any of these??

How well do they integrate into an existing aircraft???

What/which one do I need to become compliant with 2020 requirements??

I am still baffled by their advertising claim of "Everything you need in one box", and then having more that a single box????? Logic would dictate that 3 of the boxes do not have "Everything" I need.

:confused::confused::confused:
Click to expand...

Mike,
The FDL-978 XVR Transceiver (ADS-B In/Out) with built in certified GPS ($5495) will have everything you need in one box. If you have a certifed GPS like a 430/650 then you could go with the FDL-978-TX Transmitter ADS-B Out only for $3305.

Freeflight has not released the AML STC that will cover installation in the certified world yet but it should be soon, they will definately be one of the big players in the ADS-B retrofit game.
 
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BobTurner said:
It has nothing to do with safety. It's all about saving the FAA money. They get to decommision their expensive to maintain radars, and replace them with cheap receivers listening to ADSB out signals. And who gets to pay for this? Oh yea, the aircraft owners!
Click to expand...

Back when TCAS was an emerging technology we in the airline said the same thing, it was costing the airlines millions to install and the pilots saw it as useless junk they would never use, and most certainly would not take commands from it to avoid traffic.... ask them now what they think of it.
 
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Walt said:
Back when TCAS was an emerging technology we in the airline said the same thing, it was costing the airlines millions to install and the pilots saw it as useless junk they would never use, and most certainly would not take commands from it to avoid traffic.... ask them now what they think of it now.
Click to expand...

Yes, but Walt the pilots didn't have to pay for TCAS!! Totally different dynamic here....
 
Walt, I think it remains to be seen if there are fewer mid-airs due to adsb-in; or more collisions, cfit, loss of control, etc, as pilots spend more time heads down.

And remember adsb in is optional, not everyone will have it. The display needed in Normally certified aircraft will be expensive.

And remember a few years ago, in a tough budget year, the FAA was threatening to not support ADSB in.

ADSB in is just the carrot, to make the stick (ADSB out) more palitable to those who are being forced to pay for it.
 
The Ranger 978 XVR which is a single box with ADS-B in and out with internal GPS with my Garmin 327 transponder is being installed on my RV-10. I also am adding the TC-978 control head and a very small box (a little larger than the old match boxes) which will give me Bluetooth to enable display on my iPad as well as my GRT EFIS. FreeFlight has a free App for the iPad and I think they are ready to release an app for the Android systems.

To have Fully compliant ADS-B in/out system I only needed the one box, a second stick and ball antenna and the GPS antenna. Total system weight will be between 1.5 to 2 pounds.

It was supposed to be installed this week but has been delayed for a couple of weeks to finalize the wiring harness and the under cowl GPS antenna mount.

I plan on taking a lot of pictures of the install and post them here as well as providing a PIREP. I am flying to the Bahamas during Spring Break and look forward to seeing how it works from Texas to Marsh Harbour.

Walt, I will let you know when the system is being installed so you can come over to my hanger and see it and ask any questions about the system.

In the interest of full disclosure, I used to work with the VP of engineering, John DeBusk. He is giving me one of the first boxes off the production line and having his folks install it. In exchange he wants my feedback on it. I will also take some of their engineers up to see how the system operates while flying. They have operating systems in the lab but of course their ADS-B system installed on the roof of their lab near DFW gives them a limited view and does not move.

TJ
 
Remember that you still need a transponder. So while this gets you your ADS-B out, it doesn't satisfy the transponder requirement.

So, for $3,600 you can either install this box, cut another hole in your panel, and keep your current Mode-C transponder (assuming it's a modern digital transponder that is compatible.)

Or, with basically any brand of experimental EFIS today, you can buy a $2,200 fully certified Mode-S transponder, and a sub-$1,000 ADS-B IN box. That's $400+ less, and you can sell your old transponder to someone in Canada for $1,200. Plus, no cutting new holes in your panel and adding circuit breakers to your panel.

In both cases you will eventually need a TSO'd GPS, but why buy that today? You can get all the benefits of the system up until 2020 with a non-certified GPS, and odds are good that a TSO'd GPS will be less than $1,800 within the next 6 years.

This is actually a really good deal for our certified friends, since a TSO'd GPS for $1,800 is a smokin' deal in 2014, and with install costs and other issues, this may be cheaper than replacing the transponder in a plane.

Obviously we're biased over here at Dynon, but that won't stop us from offering our opinion ;) Freeflight makes some great gear, but at these prices, you are paying for the STC that you don't need in an experimental. The experimental EFIS companies have been offering simpler and more affordable ADS-B IN and OUT for years already.

--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
 
Ian has some good points.
UAT was supposed to be the low cost option for GA; but the FAA couldn't resist piling on TSO requirement after requirement, until the cost has spiralled out of control. I saw an exec from an aerospace company said he could build UAT boxes from cell phone parts for $150 each; but they would not meet TSO requirements. Something about 'parts traceability'.
 
Agree with Ian, these boxes are aimed squarly at the certified retrofit market and for many in this catagory this will be a less expensive option if they already have a good transponder installed.
 
Ian,

The FreeFlight GPS is TSO'd. Also you do not need to cut another hole in the panel, when you set the code with your transponder it is picked up by the freeflight system. I opted to put the control head in my panel but it is not required.

On a side note, the GPS signal is output from the FreeFlight box. I am using it as a second GPS source in my EFIS. I had also heard that some companies are seeing if this TSO'd WAAS GPS source can be used for IFR, when used by an EFIS. If this happens it would save the $7500 plus for a used 420W or 430W. It makes sense to me since the GPS source is a "vetted" one by the FAA. Why can't this source be used on a GRT, DYNON, etc EFIS with up to date IFR charts and approach plates downloaded in the EFIS?

Always trades whatever way you go.

TJ
 
Flying again! said:
On a side note, the GPS signal is output from the FreeFlight box. I am using it as a second GPS source in my EFIS. I had also heard that some companies are seeing if this TSO'd WAAS GPS source can be used for IFR, when used by an EFIS.
TJ
Click to expand...

I find the outlook for that to be poor since it would require the addition of strict database management in the EFIS just as the databases are managed in the TSO'd navigation systems (Garmin et al). Maybe a Jep supported non-editable database for our Efises? (Efii?? :) )

Given that, I am still planning to use the TSO'd GPS output for from my certified Navworx box as second GPS source. Its too tempting to not install the one wire needed to use it.

Navworx has the ADS600-BG boxes and certs but not STCs as of last conversation. They are cheaper by A LOT but they have to exist in the marketplace (meaning easily and quickly available) for that to be a reality. I have my fingers crossed that they will make it through and become a strong player in the ADSB market.
 
TJ,

Sorry if I was a bit obtuse. You are correct that the GPS in the Freeflight product is TSO'd. However, it's not included at the $3,600 price, it is a $1,800 option in the product. That was the basis of my statement that in an experimental, you can wait a few years and hopefully get a solution for less than $1,800.

I'm not expert on the requirements for the panel controller of the device, but the marketing literature calls the panel controller a "Key Component in the FreeFlight UAT ADS-B Transmitter System, used to control the FDL-978-TX." If you have an ADS-B device in the plane, you must have a way to turn it on/off if ATC asks, to stop altitude encoding, and to IDENT. Not sure how you achieve these requirements in a plane without the controller, which is why I assumed it was required. It also isn't drawn as optional in any of their block diagrams.

As for using the TSO'd GPS in the box for an EFIS, IFR primary navigation in an experimental requires a IFR Navigator, not just a certified GPS position source. In TSO terms, you need a C129 or C146 device, but a GPS position sensor is C145. The idea here is that you need all the software involved to be certified, not just where you are and how fast you are going.

Dynon wrote a position paper on this a year ago if you are more interested in the details:

http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1362597418/0

--Ian Jordan
 
dynonsupport said:
Remember that you still need a transponder. So while this gets you your ADS-B out, it doesn't satisfy the transponder requirement.

So, for $3,600 you can either install this box, cut another hole in your panel, and keep your current Mode-C transponder (assuming it's a modern digital transponder that is compatible.)

Or, with basically any brand of experimental EFIS today, you can buy a $2,200 fully certified Mode-S transponder, and a sub-$1,000 ADS-B IN box. That's $400+ less, and you can sell your old transponder to someone in Canada for $1,200. Plus, no cutting new holes in your panel and adding circuit breakers to your panel.

In both cases you will eventually need a TSO'd GPS, but why buy that today? You can get all the benefits of the system up until 2020 with a non-certified GPS, and odds are good that a TSO'd GPS will be less than $1,800 within the next 6 years.

This is actually a really good deal for our certified friends, since a TSO'd GPS for $1,800 is a smokin' deal in 2014, and with install costs and other issues, this may be cheaper than replacing the transponder in a plane.

Obviously we're biased over here at Dynon, but that won't stop us from offering our opinion ;) Freeflight makes some great gear, but at these prices, you are paying for the STC that you don't need in an experimental. The experimental EFIS companies have been offering simpler and more affordable ADS-B IN and OUT for years already.

--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
Click to expand...

So Ian, is there something you'd like to share with us about a potential sub $1800 TSO'd GPS?

David
 
Nope, I'm definitely not trying to hint at anything. All I am pointing out is that the ADS-B mandate is 2,160 days away, and there are a lot of companies and people trying to make ADS-B more affordable, so some people may wish to wait until 2020 is closer to equip with fully rule-compliant systems.
 
Just to understand, if one remains outside of Class B or C airspace, there will be no requirement for ADS-B in the USA?

I look back 7 years and there are a few TSO'd GPS that have become no longer supported by their manufacturer. The same is true with a few EFIS units, both TSO'd and on the sport grade side also. The cost will no doubt squeeze a few people out of sport aviation and general aviation.

The next 6 going forward should be interesting.
 
After 2020, you need ADS-B anywhere you need a transponder:

1) Above 10,000 ft MSL (excluding that airspace below 2,500 feet agl.)
2) Mode-C Veil around Class B
3) In Class B
4) In Class C

So, it's #1 that will get most RV's, even if they just fly out in rural areas but actually want to go somewhere, and then #2 really restricts you from any major area even if you don't enter Class B.
 
dynonsupport said:
After 2020, you need ADS-B anywhere you need a transponder:

1) Above 10,000 ft MSL (excluding that airspace below 2,500 feet agl.)
2) Mode-C Veil around Class B
3) In Class B
4) In Class C

So, it's #1 that will get most RV's, even if they just fly out in rural areas but actually want to go somewhere, and then #2 really restricts you from any major area even if you don't enter Class B.
Click to expand...

That is, anywhere you currently need a MODE C transponder....

Although it doesn't happen that often, RV's can get into the flight levels. There, you must have the mode S-ES, not the UAT, sstarting 2020.
 
I asked dynon that exact question at SnF. they said, "we have six years, we are looking in to it." I am hoping that by the time the mandate rolls around that there will be a few cheaper options, including dynon, to comply with this stupid mandate.

bob burns

RV-4
N82RB
 
Update on this tread, new promo pricing announced on the certified FDL-978-XVR

Waco, Texas, March 26, 2014 -- FreeFlight Systems announced today special, time-limited promotional pricing for its RANGR FDL-978-XVR ADS-B Universal Access Transceiver (UAT). Pricing for orders placed and delivered by Dec. 31, 2014 is $3,995, a savings of $1,500 off of the $5,495 regular system price. The specially priced system comes with an internal WAAS GPS and includes the optional $350 WiFi module at no additional charge.

Feel free to contact me if you need more info.
 
rzbill said:
I find the outlook for that to be poor since it would require the addition of strict database management in the EFIS just as the databases are managed in the TSO'd navigation systems (Garmin et al). Maybe a Jep supported non-editable database for our Efises? (Efii?? :) )
....
Click to expand...
I don't understand this part of the TSO rules. In the old days, it was the pilot's responsibility to make sure they had up to date JEPP charts. Wouldn't making sure your EFIS database is up to date fall into the same category?
 
N941WR said:
I don't understand this part of the TSO rules. In the old days, it was the pilot's responsibility to make sure they had up to date JEPP charts. Wouldn't making sure your EFIS database is up to date fall into the same category?
Click to expand...

There is coding in the database you cannot see that greatly determines how the airplane will fly an approach. ARINC coding is complex. Comparing charts and databases may fall short when a new database has subtle coding differences.
 
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